The DD version probably is not 5-6 times "better" than the Classic 3. No one expects a linear relationship between cost and performance, I hope. Also, the fact that the two products look somewhat alike in photos is not necessarily meaningful. The proof of the pudding is in the eating; you'd have to listen to the two products side by side in order to make your own decision. HW seems to think that his DD tt is a revelation. |
Hilarious. Brilliant. Pointless. |
Dreadhead, There are two parts to your "complaint": price and your certainty that direct-drive is inferior to belt-drive. As to price, it is your decision, not to spend $30,000. I wouldn't either. As to the mechanism of direct-drive operation, you may qualify for your prize of "Knucklehead of the Year". In direct-drive, the platter per se is the rotor, an inherent part of the "motor" that scares you. Thus, the only moving part of the motor is the platter itself. The only source of noise is the platter bearing, which is equally likely to be a source of noise in a belt-drive, in fact possibly more of a risk in the latter, because the belt is exerting a side force on the platter bearing that increases friction in that plane. The fact that you compared a DP72 to some belt-drive and preferred the latter, several decades ago, is hardly convincing evidence that all belt-drive tt's sound better than all DD tt's.
On the other hand, the advertising claim that VPI use a "submarine" motor is indeed preposterous or pointless. |
Dreadhead,
Did you have to bring up such an unimpeachable source of audio wisdom as The Audio Advisor? I am overwhelmed. In your spare time, leaf through their catalog and count the number of belt-drive turntables they SELL, as compared to the number of direct-drives they sell. Could it be that their "advice" is tilted to influence the reader to buy their products?
I have no bone to pick. Certainly there are excellent belt-drive turntables out there. And certainly many of them are superior to many direct-drive turntables. I don't argue that all DDs are superior to all BD's, but don't come to a discussion in this forum armed with such patent bullshit. Educate yourself first. |
Guess I went over the top. It was more for the thrill of it than to put down Dreadhead. Sorry, Dreadhead. But thanks for the chance to exorcise some undifferentiated anger. |
Dreadhead, It was I who insulted you or more accurately made a joke at your expense, and I've apologized. Moreover, no one questioned your personal experience. I took issue with your quoting the Audio Advisor catalog to support your blanket claim that direct-drive is inherently inferior to belt-drive. Please don't put yourself up on a pedestal for that; the pedestal won't support you for very long.
And oh yes. Politically I am pretty far to the left of the middle in most ways. |
Dave, There is no promise of a linear relationship between cost and performance, anywhere in audio or for that matter, anywhere. Even if there were, by what criteria could anyone ever say that one thing is 30X better than another? However, I do think the VPI turntable should be expected to thrash soundly the performance of an SL1200. |
For me, there would be two DD competitors with the VPI DD, Steve Dobbins' The Beat Kodo (similar price) and a refurbished SP10 Mk3 (for much less money but much much more rare to find). The dark horse would be the Brinkmann. |
Hi Fleib,
On the other thread, I mentioned that I was using a 1000R load on the 980LZS and that I found 100R to be very unsatisfactory, I think because the sound was rather rolled off and muddy. Others took issue with me, saying that 100R worked fine with their 980LZSs. And that was that. I am sure it would be fun and revealing to experiment with other values above 1000R.
What is a "CA"? Clearaudio? To me, the term "magnetic drive" is typically just doublespeak for direct-drive, a term coined by some manufacturers (Clearaudio, maybe, and some others) to indicate that the product did not use belt drive but should not be tarred with anyone's prior bias against direct drive. Exceptions are products from EAR and Transrotor that have oddball drive systems using magnetics AND a belt. |
Fleib, I was going to quote the very same sentence of yours that is quoted already above by Hiho. To wit: "I got the impression that the Brinkman also uses a magnetic drive where the motor isn't directly connected to the platter."
In addition to what Hiho says, I would only note that in any direct-drive turntable, the motor is not "directly connected" to the platter, IMO. It is more correct to say that the platter is part of the motor. Thus there is nothing touching the platter except the magnetic forces that drive it as part of the motor, the rotor part of a classical motor. The semantics are everything in this case, I think, because those who had poisoned the public mind about DD had repeated over and over for 20 years that there must be a "noise" problem, because the motor is "directly connected" to the platter. Not so. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am pretty sure you know this, but others might not. DD turntables do have some issues unique to the DD technology, but noise of that sort is not one of them. |
Hiho, Thanks for the reminder, I guess. I had forgotten that Art Dudley, of all people (because I generally respect him and believe him to be a good writer), is one of those who has perpetuated the "big lie" about DD turntables. You would think he'd know better. Meantime, he is in love with his TD124, which requires BOTH a belt AND an idler to drive its platter, the worst of all possible worlds.
I agree with the many who have said that for $30K, there are other tt's I would choose over the VPI Classic, most especially any one of the Steve Dobbins "The Beat" iterations. In fact, I'd rather have my SP10 Mk3. But the marketplace will ultimately determine whether VPI made a wise move in naming, pricing, and choosing build materials for the Classic DD. |
The Thingap motor seems to be a modern and novel version of a traditional "coreless" motor. Several vintage Japanese turntables (e.g, Kenwood, Victor, Pioneer Exclusive), as well as originally some of the older Dual turntables, use a version of the coreless motor, and so does the Brinkmann Bardo. It has been my experience that such turntables have a very pleasing sound that is devoid of the coloration that can be (but not always is) associated with cogging of a typical DD motor. This bodes well for the VPI. But can anyone see why the Thingap motor should cost $5000? Maybe forming that copper cylinder is tricky.
Also, a laminate of alu and MDF would perform quite a bit better than either material used by itself, due to the positive effects of CLD, so I would not damn the VPI for using "MDF", per se.
Further, if VPI uses the same motor as the Caliburn, it may be regarded as a stone, cold bargain, since we know that the Caliburn is $150,000. (Just sayin'.) |
Brf, Not only do they perform the same (Camry vs Lexus with similar equipment choices), they ARE the same internally. Anyway, VPI is a successful company. Whether they made some unfortunate decisions in marketing their new DD remains to be seen. I doubt that the fate of the company rests on its success, which cannot be said for NVS, TechDas, Caliburn (already defunct, I hear), and some others. |
In_shore, Who would argue with your points A and B? Not I. But I would argue that there is nothing at all wrong, a priori, with using MDF (or HDF?) in a sandwich with alu, in order to obtain a result that is superior to either material used alone. That's called synergy; it can be achieved in this case with the CLD effect. Adona make shelves using granite and MDF bonded together. I don't like either material alone, and I was initially put off by the idea of even using them together, but in fact Adona shelves actually perform very well. CLD in principle can work. Unless you know that alu/MDF sounds bad, I don't know how you can condemn it out of hand. |
In_shore, I never said that I knew for a fact that alu/MDF sandwich sounded good. I did say (twice at least) that it MIGHT sound good, because sometimes the effects of CLD transcend the sonics of the individual materials used in the sandwich. I suggested that you might be off base in condemning it out of hand. Or, have you in fact actually heard the Classic Direct? I didn't think so.
Why I did not use it: I lack the equipment and the know-how to make such a sandwich in the proper way so as to get the result one wants. I never thought of it. I took the more simple-minded approach of using slate. Then I found that slate in a sandwich with cherry or baltic birch sounds better than slate alone. Artisan and Porter are selling great beauty as well as solid hard woods. Dobbins is using proprietary materials in the Beat. At one point he referred to it as "man-made slate", or so I am told second hand. There IS such a thing, but I don't know that it has superior sonic properties. The proof of the pudding is only in the eating. |
In_shore, I kind of agree with Brf; "exotic" and "proprietary" are not always indicators of exceptional performance. I mean no slur on the named companies in saying this. In fact, I too am a big fan of the Beat. (Have not yet heard any product from Artisan or Porter.) Nevertheless, the point is that proper engineering trumps everything else, IMO. |
