When I compare for example the Onkyo TX-NR5010 between XT32 and Pro the difference is stunning. Like you have a set which is 2-3 times more expensive. The drive and timing is superior. Like you bought a biggerpoweramp. But also the difference in sound is huge. So much warmer and much moe details and air. The stage is wider and deeper as well. The subwoofer is a lot better integrated and has a lot more control and drive as well. I have to tell that I measure at total different hights and places than Audyssey says. There way is ok, but to be honnest by far not good enough what i would want. My way measures a lot more dynamics and details. Also is my way of measurement superior in sharpness of the individual focus of voices and instruments. |
Soon I will buy the new pure silver Audioquest Wild dog subwoofer cable with DBS72 when it is available. Pure silver will give you more speed and more details also from 60-140 hz. |
"Audyssey pro" takes care of setting. That makes sense!
Thanks for details! |
It doesn't matter what speaker you use. I would use the PLW-15 Always from 16-140hz. But you need Audyssey pro to use it this far. Without I also could not use it this far. Without Audyssey pro there are different rules. The PLW-15 is without Audyssey Pro a very difficult subwoofer to control. AVground you need to read better, I do not sell Revel speakers. I prefer Pass Labs power amps. I use the Onkyo PR-SC5509 as a Pre-amp with my way of Audyssey Pro measurement. Loudspeakercable; for my front speakers and centre I use Audioquest Redwood 2013 loudspeakercable. For powercables I use Purist Audio. Limited 2013 for poweramps. Interconnects; I use 3 Audioquest Diamond hdmi cables. I use Audioquest Wild Blue Yonder 2013 and Sky XLR. And I use Acapella XLR pure silver interconnect. |
Bo, By using the sub from 16hz till 140 hz the level of integration is a lot better than used to 40-80. The Monitor Audio PLW-15 has an extreme fast and tight response. What do you recommend for typical low pass cross point of PLW-15 with PL-200? Jacintha's Light up fire, you introduced at here, is one of my 10 favorite songs. Thanks! |
Salmoni, what did you end up using? Did you go wiht Bo-Blow's recommendations of some way WAY over-priced Revel's for
"attempting" to filling a large room with potent high quality (touchble??? lol!!) Home Theater Sound? Or did you take my advice and end up with super dynamics, super high efficiency loud speakers, which helped integrate well with difficult room acoustics issues?
Do tell us what you ultimately did for gear choices? |
A toachable sound makes it more just like real. I use a THX processor as well. But this is not the most important thing for the end results. Everything in sound is about emotion and what it gives for a feeling. In 15 years of time I sold many sub's abd did test many. These days I have with Audyssey pro ( with my own way of measuring and settings the best stealth integration. For movies you also get more depth feeling even with the low freq cause of Audyssey pro. The superior timing sets it to a new level. By using the sub from 16hz till 140 hz the level of integration is a lot better than used to 40-80. The Monitor Audio PLW-15 has an extreme fast and tight response. So it has a lot more controle to be used at higher freq. Low freq. become toucable from 80hz and above. I am waiting for the pure silver Audioquest Watchdog sub cable to get even more speed and control. |
Yeeeeaaaah,..I think we should just go around to all the local movie theaters and try to convince these companies that own them to throw out all their otherwise ineffective and crappy horn loudspeaker systems, and switch over to using Magnapans, B&W 801's, and Thiels instead! ..YEAH, NO! WWHAT A CRAPPY MOVIE EXPERIENCE THAT WOULD BE!!!
Im in the business since '96, fer now 17 years, and have worked in more AV stores, hi-end salons, and done more custom than most ever will (sold most every kind of ultra hi-end and midfi gear known to man, too, at one point)...and I'm here to tell you that your super deep holographic audiophile grade consumer loudspeakers and amp combo's WILL NOT REPLACE AN EFFECTIVELY WELL ENGINEERED HOME THEATER SYSTEM SETUP, FOR BEING EFFECTIVE AT REPRODUCING MOVIES!!!..period (But don't take my word for it...just take note of what all the highly regarded AV magazine reviewers use in their reference HT movies systems, and you'll quickly see speakers and electronics that ARE NOT super ESSOTERIC, DELICATE sounding, ULTIMATE AIR, SUPER HOLOGRAPHIC, AND UBER-WIDE SOUNDSTAGING AUDIOPHILE 2 CHANEL GEAR AND LOUDSPEAKRS, IN THEIR MULTICH HT SYSTEMS!!! - you do the math).
Again, THX spent decades and millions of dollars in R&D, perfecting what kind of equipment and setup would best reproduce the cinematic experience, and in the home. So who you gunna believe? Someone who's simply listened to different gear, or an industry that's won major awards, Oscars, and accolaids for it's accomplishments?
No brainer really.
btw, "A GOOD SPEAKER IS NOT A GOOD SPEAKER!"..just because someone else happens to think that it's a good speaker, for their limited application, taste or experience. |
|
MOST SPEAKERS USE CROSSOVERS WHICH CANNOT GIVE DEPTH. I AM IN THIS BUSINESS FOR OVER 15 YEARS AND TESTED MANY SPEAKERS IF THEY ARE 2 OR 3-DIMENSIONAL. LIKE MOST SURROUND AMP IN THE MID LEVEL PRICES ARE ALL 2-DIMENSIONAL. THX DOE NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE PROPERTIES OF AMPS LIKE DEPTH AND WIDE. FORWARD MEANS 2-DIMENSIONAL. THE BEST HIGHEND SPEAKERS PLACE THE IMAGE FAR BEHIND THE SPEAKERS. WENN YOU US SPEAKERS FOR AV WHICH CAN GIVE AN EXTREME DEEP AND WIDE STAGE YOU GET THE MOST STUNNING IMAGE POSSIBLE EVEN FOR MULTI CHANNEL USE. IT IS THAT SIMPLE! |
"Depth?"..are you kidding me?! Um, depth isn't how cinema recordings are mixed. I got news for ya'll! Try to uses some intentionally "deep" imaging loud speakers for movie duties, and you'll have a soundstage that's way to laid back and uninvolving for accurately reproducing the movie experience! At the best Imax and THX movie cinemas, I guarantee you, the presentation is not holographic, with super deep imaging, and sound staging. In fact, it's up front and immediate, with lots of presence. Soundstage depth is not part of the equation at the theater.
Movie/music loudspeakers need to be either near neutral or a bit forward in their presentation, if they're to have any chance of being effective as movie loudspeakers.
Once did a 5.1 channel Thiel 2.3/Krell HT system set up in my home briefly. was the most boring HT system I remember having! (granted, it was very clear with great detail).
Do yourselves a favor...USE THE KIND OF GEAR THE PROFESSIONAL AV REVIEWERS USE IN THEIR SYSTEM! - no brainer |
I would go for an amp with roomcorrection. |
Bought 2nd hand B&W XT8 speakers and PV 1 SUB.
they sounded realy good at Modia store...
Now need advice for amp .pre and dvd/cd
All digital ,open budget
My large living room
80% HT ,20% music cd's ...
yes it is a spouse pleaser.... |
XT8 is a very woman friendly speaker in looks. But the crossovers of the speakers are not able to give you a deep and wide stage. The sub you bought is fast but cause of the double speaker use touchable image is not possible. Stealth integration is only possible wenn you use a sealed sub with only one speakerunit on the front side. All the sub's I tested with more than one unit were impossible to get the stealth integration. Stealth integration means instruments and voices keep the same proportion. How much money you want to spend on the amp and source togheter? |
Bought 2nd hand B&W XT8 speakers and PV 1 SUB.
they sounded realy good at Modia store...
Now need advice for amp .pre and dvd/cd
All digital ,open budget
My large living room
80% HT ,20% music cd's ...
Thanks |
hahahahaha.....there is no manufacturer who will tell you this. In the better shops were the sell good highend they know. It is something you have to find out yourself. Compare it and you will learn and understand what depth means. And wenn everything plays loose from eachother how much more fun listening will be. Take your time. |
Per Bo...
"It is that simple! In the world of audio most amps are in the 2-dimensional league."
"That is why I do not sell 2-dimensional audio anymore."
There you have it Salmoni. All you gotta do is look for the specification in the manufacturers brochure that says dimensionality and stay away from those that are rated as 2 Dimension. Just choose an amp that is rated as 3 Dimension or even Multi-Dimension and you'll be OK. I believe you'll find this spec right under the spec that gives the amount of magic pixie dust sprinkled on the circuit boards expressed in milligrams. |
depends how much money you have? Always go for an amp which can make a deep and wide stage. Or you go back to standard audio= 2-dimensional audio. It is that simple! In the world of audio most amps are in the 2-dimensional league. Even many highend amps will give a worse deep and wide image. That is why I do not sell 2-dimensional audio anymore. People who buy it do not understand audio or like to limit themselves I guess. |
is THE 5509 OVERKILL FOR 5.1 HT?
and WHICH AMP COMPLIMENTS IT BEST? |
First you need an amp or pre-amp which has the possibility to use Audyssey Pro. Second you need to buy a kit ( 700 dollar). And 3th you need to buy a key ( 150 dollar) to get access in your amp. It is not an easy system to use. Because you have to work extreemly presize or it will work against you. The microphone stand as Audyssey delivers for Pro is useless. They way Audyssey measures the results are ok. I measure at totally different places and hights. And I do my own changements in the settings. This gives a superior result compared to the Audyssey way. I did many tests during 3 years with Audyssey. And now almost 1 year with Pro. I get a lot more dynamics and resolution at how I use it. I even can create a wider and deeper stage. And the whole freq. respons I can adapt how a client wants his personal sound. I have a better timing and even more drive than what I had with the XP-20 which I owned for 2 years. The separation is even better compared to the XP-20. And the articulation of voices is more open compared to the XP-20. I can crush every pre-amp till 10.000 dollar with ease. In every aspect I can give a higher level. Even in natural sound. Last week I sold a 5509 with Pro also to a customer with a Pass Labs Pre-amp. So even at 2 channel I get a higher level. For Multi-chanel it is even more simple to win. You cannot use Denon with Pro for it. Why? Because it is a 2-dimensional brand. Wenn you connect it to a Pass Labs the wide and deep stage is gone. A few weeks ago I sold my old audio rack to a person who thought Denon was the best in Surround. He ownes the Denon AVP-A1HD. After hearing my set his word were: so this is the end of Denon for me. He understood that Denon is a 2-dimensional brand. And now he also wants a 3-dimensional image. It is that easy to convince. Only Onkyo and Integra can create a wide and deep stage in there price tag with roomcorrection. Primare can do the same but lacks roomcorrection. The Sp32 is inferior to a 5509 with Pro in every aspect. This year I sold 2 5509 to SP-32 clients. |
How to get Audyssey Pro ? |
Every part in a system including the acoustics have influence on the sound. Wenn we talk about speakers the quality is based on the quality of the box itself. Less colouration is important for a natural sound. The material of the units is also very important. The respons says everything about timing, natural sound, control and definition you can hear. The magnet is also a very important part of the control. The thing you see often is how limited crossovers are these days. Many brands are not able to give a wide and deep stage. This sets everthing to a higher level. Wenn you want to have a 3-dimensional sound ( what is superior over 2-dimenssional sound) you need to have crossovers which can build this. For an amp you have the same criteria. Wenn it also can give a wide and deep stage everything gets to a higher level.It doesn't matter if you play stereo or multichannel. Every single part of a recording is touchable and easy to point out. These days the quality of cables are so good that it is easy to get a higher level than with standard cables. That is why I do blind auditions to open the eyes ( ears) of people what it can do. For HT Audyssey Pro sets everything to a much higher level than in the past. The overwhole sound is so much more balanced. Flaws in a system always attracts your attention in a bad way. You only want to hear the music or movie without limitations. Always change one part in your system, never more. Because you will loose the control and you are not aware what the changed parts do togheter or loose from eachother. |
Very large room HT
["Bo1972 7.1 does not say anything about the quality of speakers, amps etc."]
Who said it did?
["07-24-13: Bo1972
Sometimes Audiogon is like a tree for me. I like to shake the tree and just curious what will fall out of it.....
Bo1972 (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"]
The more I read this admonition and your criticisms it's clear your quite the little troll. Also, in making equipment suggestions you constantly fail to clarify yourself as an audio dealer with a vested interest. Moderator, are you there?
Right or wrong this is a community of people offering their actual hands on experiences to give the original poster as much information as possible in light of the ever shrinking ability to actually audition products in person. I see no practical reason for you to challenge others remarks to the point of profanity. On the other hand it does give one perspective as to the shallowness of your professionalism.
It's not difficult to weed out comments from those who have had little to no practical hands on experience with a particular product, such as you have in past threads. Your are the only dealer I've heard so openly and continually name and berate competitive products at length and in such detail in a public forum. |
Revel is also a good option. At a show this year it was one of the best demo's. It is good to read you started to listen. Take your time and you will find your personal preference. |
Ok friends lets start with speakers for 5.1 ,HT and possibly two very good front speakers for just stereo .
Than will get a really good amp and than I got to have a Pre with all the gadgetry,,,,how's that .
I listened to paradigm S8 and I gave it. 8out of ten !
B&W at best buy was to me 7out of ten
I am looking for the MA and the Revels
YOUR INPUT IS GREATLY APPRECIATED
SALMONI |
Speakers are the way to start. |
I think we should help the OP by keeping things simple...
maybe we can all agree on a few things and he will have to go from there....my experiences and opinions are somewhat different than yours and the next guy and so on...
1) at a price point of 20,000, we are way beyond the HT in a box.
2) speakers have classes just like cars do... you cannot FAIRLY compare a $1,000 speaker with a $5,000 speaker. and so on.
3) There IS a law of diminishing returns with home theater speakers and equipment. Is the OP going for a 90% awesome system or is he chasing after the last 10% of perfection?
4) even with room correctioncorrection... the best speakers/systems will not sound as good as a lower end system in a decent acusticly made room.
5) it seems that we are on the same page as far as saving the money and buying used
6) there are different ways to go about the idea of reproducing sound... electrostatic, ribbon tweeters, dome tweeters, and all the materials for them... people prefer different ones... it doesn't mean one is better than the other, just different.
7) it would be impossible for the OP to listen to all the speaker and amp and processor combinations in his listening room.. so he would still need to go and listen to speakers, even though they will be in acusticly different rooms.
if we can agree on these items at least the OP has a place to start.
Bill |
At the end the sound quality is what matters. This level says how good a system is. Many people said to me they did not understand what 3-dimensional means. But after hearing it became clear. Now it is very easy for them to understand. Why? because they heard it. Most of them never heard 2 and Multi channel this good. People came to me at the show and said; this is how it should be. Wenn they came in you directly hear the level in focus and in depth. It is that convincing. Even wenn you are not sitting in the middle, the focus is still awesome. You can spend your money only once. That is why I Always do different settings. For example: a source or amp of 2000 e with a pwercable of 100 e. And a source or amp of 1000 e with a powercable of 1000 e. The amount is the same. The end results are Always a lot different. Audyssey Pro solves a lot of acoustic problems. I had this year in a farm very good results with XT-32 in one of the most worst acoustics I ever had. |
Here's how all this works..
First, Vast majority of consumers systems, regardless of expenditure, have chity performing systems, that are no where near the capability of what they COULD have ended up with if they did it right in the first place! Truely, Home theater in a box, Bose, and similar would have done them just as good. ..cause they haven't a clue, and likelyl neither does their "professional" installer!
NO, THX is not just a certification! Can you get a great HT system that's NOT THX? Sure! Problem is 99% of all audio enthusiests and consumers alike don't know what they're actually doing, and the acoustics are already likely a huge obstacle to great performance to begin with! Thus THX is an easier integration, comparatively, that has a much better fundamental chance, all room setups acoustical challenges, and likely issues that will come into play during setup aside, if it's not broken, don't fix it!
Worked in 6 high end audio video stores over the past 2 decades, and sold/did it all. ..Did all the custom, was an avid audio/vidoephile, went to CES EVERY year, including "The Show", Cedia maybe once (custom is a bit dry and boring..so I sourced it out when I sold systems), read about every document I could find on room acoustics, and played, installed, and built most every type you can imagine, and implemented them. Oh, and along the way, tinkered with modified AV gear, custom loud speaker implementations, took classes for calibration, theory, integration, acoustics, yada yada.
So here some of you people are... giving other people advice to simply go down and listen to find out what you like! YEEEAH! As if this was going to be an indicator as to how that same equipment that they heard, in some other room that's TOTALLY different than their own- btw, was going to perform after THEY set it all up in their own home setting!! WWWROOONG!
This is why you can't simply read a magazine recommended review, list, or someone's biased opinion (as a zealous green-horn audio enthusiast, who just got his first job around gear working for Best Buy /Magnolia, and still doesn't know what they're talking about, no matter how excited they are about all this stuff they think they know!)
NO ..you can't go to CES, and listen to a "Monitor Audio" ht setup, and expect that the industry is suddenly going to stand up with high praise and accolades, showting "THIS IS IT! ..THIS IS THE SINGLE BEST HOME THEATER EXPERIENCE WE'VE ALL BEEN SEARCHING FOR!!! AAAAA AAAAA AAHHHAAAAAAA!!!!
No it's not going to happen, and those same speakers you might have just liked with some pop music playing suddently don't sound so good in your 8 foot ceiling, poor acoustically laid out living room, vs what you just heard in a large high ceiling carefully laid out and acoustically friendly arrangement, which you heard at some esoteric high end audio salon, BEING DRIVEN BY $50K WORTH OF PREAMPS, AMPS , CABLES, POWER CONDITIONING, CD TRANSPORT, ETC!!!!
It's all relative.
All I'm saying is that when I hear people getting on the bandwagon of some loud speaker design that they heard demo'd somewhere, and they suddenly get visions of the heavens opening up, and God coming down to bless your loudspeakers as the "end-all-be-all" of home theater nirvana, I JUST HAVE TO LAUGH! BBBAAAHAAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Yep, the reality is that people don't know, cause they really don't want to know!
Fall into the trap of simply going out and buying a pair of loudspeakers you listened to (NOT s complete system that's engineered for YOUR SPACE, in YOUR HOME, with YOUR SYSTEM), which you auditioned in some foreign audio shop, with variables you have no idea what you're dealing with, and you get what you deserve!!! All I'm sayin.
Bottom line, if you don't want to go some professional's advice, I recommend HIGHLY that those inquiring here, looking for a system to fit your needs (SYSTEM! - operative word here), simply go through all the av magazine reviewers, and look at what they're using for their dedicated HT systems! In fact, why not just email em and ask em what they use, and what they recommend/suggest you use as well?!!!
HEY! now there's a wise idea!!! Cause face it, otherwise you get every single enthusiests and 2 channel tube/analog audiophile who' uses nothing but a tube amp hooked directly to an OPPO DVD player as their "reference" AV system's, opinion on what's right for you!!
See it all for decades, and you can't reinvent the wheel!
Follow the experts, cause they are in the KNOW!
Probably the best advice I can give for someone putting together their own HT system as a project/hobby, who's trying to figure out the "pieces".
A wise man once said,"..the crowd is ALWAYS wrong!" |
Wine is fine but a good tequillia... heaven..
as far as the "3D sound" i guess i just do no understand what you are saying... a wide sound stage usually refers to how far from one side to the other the speaker sends its sound... and there are specs for that.
but besides that frequency response goes from high to low. low distortion. efficiency. changes things but when it is all said and done a speaker just moves in and out to make sound.
i purchased my speakers used and i believe you would be hard pressed to find any pair of speakers that sound better in that price range, no mater your preference for manufacturers.
just my 2 cents... but then again maybe i am def. i have also bought components that i was told i would notice a night and day difference and i did not hear any difference.
there seems to be a very NOTICEABLE line that yields the biggest differences in sound in HT. once you cross the line only very small changes are noticed if any... again... my experience... have i heard every speaker???? NO... not at all.
Bill |
THX is a system, wenn it is on your Amp ( like mine) you know one thing for sure. Lucas earns money on the amp you bought. The story about the 3-dimensional image is 100% true. It is very easy to find out what the difference is between 2 and 3-dimensional. You need to connect those brands who can give a wide and deep stage. Like speakers who can en like the amps who can. You need both to keep the deep and wide stage. Wenn one does not have these skills it is almost gone. Go to a dealer were these brands are. You will understand what the difference is. I only do demo's on shows because I want to let people hear the difference between 2 and 3-dimensional sound. Because it will give you that sound were you want to listen for many hours. And yess 20.000 dollar is a lot of money. You only can spent it once! |
Great idea Bill!
I live in Houston Tx
I would love to listen to you system ,and I will bring a bottle of wine...
salmoni |
As i read the last few posts i just had to log out from here... then i got to thinking what a bunch of nonsense...
so....
high end audiophile speakers do not do well in "dedicated home theaters?"
only a thx cert means the speaker is good enough for home theater?
monitor speakers and a sub is all most would want in a home theater?
a three d sound???? for monitor audio?
listen.... Go and listen to all the speakers you can... get the ones that sound great to you.
i have a hard time believing that a "audiophile" quality speaker not sounding as good as a speaker just made to stick in a wall. If you want to say that you could get 80% of the performance of an audiophile speaker for a great deal less... Well that has been said in the past and probably is correct.
todays blu ray sound tracks are dynamic not only from natural sounds but also from computer generated ones... by that logic the better a speaker is a REPRODUCING the sounds that they want you to hear...the better.
thx certification is just that, a certification.... that is mother to say that some speakers would be certified if the company sent those speakers in to PAY for the cert.
this is so so tiring...
so you believe in the monitor audio speakers and thousands in cables... maybe you ears are dog ears... i just do not hear a real world difference.....nor in power cables either...
so whatever....
to the OP go and listen 20,000 is a lot of cash... you have many many options. maybe make a post to see who is in your area and willing to let you listen to their system.
i am in daytona each Florida... you are welcome to come by and listen to mine.
Bill |
Hi Salmoni,
take your time. First listen with your music and dvd's to many loudspeakers. Because it Always will be a personal taste. Then listen to amps with these speakers. The time you spend on this search to your system is the most fun. Enjoy it and take all the time you need.
good luck,
Bobby |
Hi guys. Bo and Av ground
I read and thank you for your honest opinion !
I wish I could invite you to my apartment's large living area.....
I need a hybrid of your advices.
HT 80%. Music ,Internet radio and cd's ( non high Rez or super cd) an occasional clasicals.
20000 $ is a lot and I want to fill this large living area with lots of depth hight and width
More specifics please on amp ,Pre and best to get there .
Thanks Salmoni |
Link Pl-200 review
http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-platinum-pl200-loudspeaker-page-2 |
Avgoround forgets important parts of the same test. Here are some other quotes from the same review:
but I've listened to this recording many, many times, and through the PL200s I heard details of orchestration that simply had not been apparent before. For example, in the arrangement of Pachelbel's Canon in D, I noticed for the first time that a percussion instrument enters the fray (at 2:42 into track 3) making "clucking" sounds. Could I have heard it through other speakers if I'd listened more attentively? Perhaps. All I can say is that with the PL200s in this system, the presence of this instrument was very obvious, and an effective part of director Harold Farberman's arrangement.
here is the link of the full review:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-platinum-pl200-loudspeaker |
You have to read better. Before you talk this kind of bullshit. The Pl-200 is not a big speaker, so it does not go that low. But........it can play till about 118 db without stress. If you had better read my threats you would have known that I use the PLW-15. This sub starts at 16 hz. With my way of measurment and Audyssey Pro it get the best stealth integration ever with a subwoofer. I was at a show with over 50 distributers. At the show were; the new Dynaudio evidence platinum, Focal Scala's, Magico S1, new 800D and many more. Many distributers came to me to congratulate with the best sound of the show. The day after the show the chief editor of the biggest Audio Magazine called to say we were the absolute sound. And you know why......Because I had the best timing, the most convincing 3-dimensional image, best natural sound. On monday many shop owners came to me thay they never heard this level in touchable sound ever. And now back to Klipsch. The difference between the PL-200 and the Klipsch are the cross overs. The stage of the Pl-200 is wider and deeper. This part I can use to the max. I play 5 metres behind the speakers and 1 metre beside. This makes the stage so much bigger. The instruments and voices are foccussed sharp as in real. Most people never heard a demo what was this touchable. I played many bluray's at live level at the show. Klipsch was also at this show, I did not hear any person talking about how great Klisch was. Klipsch has not the accuracy in playing this deep and wide as the best highend speakers do. The stage is less deep and less wide. Instruments are not that loose from eachother. Playing loud does not say anything about the stage it can build. This is the part were you can reach the highest level. I could play extreme loud but still with a very deep and wide stage. No harshness and the sharpest individual focus of instruments and voices most peole ever heard. Next time think sharper before you think your Klipsch speakers are that special. Because in depth and in wide the crossovers are not that special. You never can reach the 3-dimensional level in sound. This part is the reason to blow every person away. |
I disagree. I've had some of the most expensive high end audio gear and loud speakers imaginable in my systems, and played, installed, and tinkered with most all of it.
Here's a little snipped of the review of the Monitor Audio PL-200's:
"At very high levels, the PL200s couldn't match the sense of dynamic ease that characterizes the Avantgarde Uno Nanos, but the same thing might be said of just about any speaker of similar size and driver complement. "
Boys and girls, THIS IS TYPICAL OF MOST STANDARD "HI-END AUDIO" HOME AUDIO LOUDSPEAKER OFFERINGS, attempting dedicated home theater system duties!!!"
Yes, if large scale dynamics, effortless power and presence, and focused, solid imaging, coherent, acoustically forgiving designed loud speaker designs are not in your consideration (GO TO ANY IMAX THEATER AND TELL ME THE SYSTEM DOESN'T STOMP YOUR GUTS OUT AND SMACK YOU IN THE CHEST WITH DYNAMICS!!), than you you can mostly go get just about any "hi-fi" audio speaker, and stick em in your system! FOR MOVIES -especially - you can be sure you'll not get ANTHING much more special, from one choice to the next, that's ANYTHING MUCH MORE SPECIAL than what you can get from any other similar loudspeaker design! You don't think so?! YOU JUST READ FROM THE SAME REVIEWER WHAT THE SPEAKER DOES AND DOESN'T DO!
Let me tell you what they DON'T DO...ANY OF THE ABOVE NECESSARITY EFFECTIVE TRAITS THAT A GOOD HOME THEATER LOUDSPEAKER IN AN ALL OUT HT SYSTEM SHOULD OFFER! - that's what!
So if delicate, micro scale, 'LAID BACK" , to open sounding, and average HT dynamics, coherence, and presence for THX system duties is your cup of tea, then by all means. you can easily go with some OVER EXPENSIVE home audio music loudspeaker, and stick em in an dedicated home theater system!
I say, why waste your money, when you can do all the necessary HT soundtrack playback(movie recordings aren't Dianna Krall and high rez super audio cd master 2 ch recordings, btw) with absolute effectiveness WITH A TRIED AND TRUE INDUSTRY RECOMMENDED THX SPEAKER SYSTEM for your EXTENSIVELY DIFFICULT ACCOUSTICALLY UNFRIENDLY DEDICATED THEATER ROOM SETUP, which likely doesn't work so effectively with standard music speakers in the first place?!!!
If you're going to go the Thiel, Wilson, B&W, esoteric music kit choices for your DEDICATED home theater setup (not music, btw, as was not described here as an application), then simply save your money, and buy most any highly rated Class B or A Stereophile monitor on the used market, add a subwoofer, hook it all up with your choice of processor and used multi-channel Class A or B Stereophile recommended amplifier and Oppo player, and be done with it!
I assure you, ALL THE HIGH END AV AND EVEN STEREO MAGAZINE PROFESSIONAL REVIEWERS are using more dedicated HT type home theater loud speakers for their "dedicated" HT systems!
Not what's being recommended previously.
You're choice. But it's all been done before
Yawwwwwn.
The Klipsch THX system still is WAY more effective, "CLEAR ENOUGH", detailed "enough", and super coherent, dynamic (for a passive speaker system), MORE than potent and hard hitting enough, and solid enough of an imager (no you don't need super super deep imaging from an ht loudspeaker, YOU NEED PRESSENCE! -even slightly upfront soundstaging would be preferred over laid back audiophile!) to be a better choice for most applications of this type!
Yep, to many years of tinkering with esoteric audio gear to know what to recommend, what works, and what doesn't.
I guarantee NO ONE with what I recommended will be disappointed (except the 2 channel tube/analog only guys listening to "jazz at the Pawn Shop" on a loop, will think ill of said recommended THX's formula! - 1000's of hours of tried and true home theater select gear, btw!)
The used listing for speakers is full of choices that offer nothing so special, soundwise, if you're main goal is an effective, all out home theater speaker system.
Just sayin... |
I sold Klipsch speakers for some years. You can also play very loud with these. But in the world of highend, they are not good enough. Why? Very simple it has to do with there cross over filter. Not a lot of depth. What I said many times depth and also playing beside of the speakers is the most thrilling part in highend audio. Because all parts are all full loose and tochable from eachother in wide and in depth. You can hear all the parts of recordings played in full 3d in front of you. I alway say: you can run threw the recording during listening. So you can focus very easilly on one part and later focus on another part of the recording. |
Monitor Audio Pl-200, PLC-150, PLW-15, GXFX, Pass Labs X250.5 ( update to 600.5 this year), Primare 30.5 mk2, ( centre I use bi-amp Red Wood, surroundspeakers I use Audioquest Rocket 33) Onkyo PR-SC5509 with Audyssey Pro ( I measure at totally different places and hight compared to Audyssey which gives me a wider and deeper stage, more drive and resolution. Sharper individual focus), Audioquest Redwood 2013 bi-wire for Pl-200, also for centre bi-amp version, use 2 channels of the Primare 30.5. Audioquest Sub3 ( in a few months update to the new Watchdog pure silver subcable from Audioquest.Acapella pure silver XLR Audioquest rocket 33 for surround speakers. Purist Audio 2013 LE powercable with Oyaide F1, Dominus rev b, 20 th Ann with Oyaide F1 3 of these. KE Powersource+ conditioner ( is also available in the US, is superior to all the PS audio ( I did test these),
Audioquest Sky for surr and centre ( upgrade to Audioquest wild blue Yonder wenn avaiable), 3 times Audioquest Diamond hdmi, Humax 5100 decoder, Onkyo BD-SP 809, Audioquest NRG1.5 for bluray player. Samsung PS64F8500 plasma
* Aurender S10 is also planned for this year. |
HT? Just stay with a high efficiency THX loud speaker system, follow the online setup parameter suggestions, and use audyssey or some DSP room calibration to help balance it out. Find the speaker system that fits in your budget, allowing the rest for filling in remainder of components. Go good pre/pro with room correction, and you can budget for 5.1 channel amp with power needed to driver your speakers. Cover reflection points on wall/ceiling points (use absorption up front, diffusion/absorption alternating to sides, and diffusion in back of room), bass traps in corners, and use even number seating (1/3,1/5,1/7 room dimension seating locations from side to side and back to front -and 1/6,1/10,1/14 corresponding loud speaker locations for monopoles, and dipoles to direct sides of rows) risers for back rows.
If your really at $20000 range, I'd suggest looking at Klipsch Thx, M&K POWERED THX speaker system, or like Macintosh THX system for more audiophile refined sounding qualities in an THX system. You're after high efficiency, focused verticle dispersion speakers designs, multiple mid/woof driver configured, even horns or multiple tweeter configs. Better power handling, more solid reinforcement of sound signal, less distortion (all things equal) and so on. Powered /active speakers also offer better power handling, higher efficiency, better dynamics and impact typically, yada yada.
There's a million combinations of speakers and equipment. I'd suggest looking at what all the professional AV magazine reviews use as their reference systems, and compare. They know what works, and are into this stuff. Take a page out of their book and follow their lead, yeah? |
Dear Bo
Can you detail your system? |
First choose your personal speakers. And please do not forget B&kW make fine speakers but they lack a deep and wide stage. This is the most exiting part in highend audio. I did not go for the B&W 800D. I wanted to go to the next level for the absolute sound. B&W could not help me anymore because the stage was not that wide and deep. A 3-dimensional sound is wenn you see the biggest smiles on people there faces. I hope to give demo's in the US as well. Because I want people to hear how much more thrilling 3-dimensional sound is over 2-dimensional sound. Many people came to me during the show that they did understand what I meant with 3-dimensional sound after hearing the demo. It was new for many, even for shop owners. For me it is normal. I started in music and audio wenn I was 6. I got a big Philips stereo tube recorder. |
Thanks for your advice!
I realize that I need a good multi Chanel amplifier,
And preamp,to drive a 5.1 set of B&W with 804 as rt and lt? |
7.1 does not say anything about the quality of speakers, amps etc. Wenn you use an amp which give a 2-dimensional image ( most do) you never will go higher than standard audio. Also wenn I play in Multi channel the stage is superior to all the 2-dimensional brands. I play 4-5 metre behind the speakers. And 1 metre beside the speakers. Bluray music is stunning because every instrument plays full touchable and to point out. Often instruments play far beside the speakers. For many it is a new experience. It is that convincing that people understand the new level in sound. |
Regardless of room size, IMO both 7.1 and matrixed 5.1 to 7.1 media is far more entertaining than 5.1. Use matched speakers, no dipoles.
If this is a dedicated HT system I suggest going conservitave except for the display and the sub/s. |
You are prepared to spend a lot of money on your system. First you have to listen to speakers. You are the only one who can do this. It is a personal matter. For Movies you should buy a Plasma or projector. All LED/lcd tv's have an almost 2 dimensional flat image. Are 10.000 times slower in respons than Plasma. The filters which are used for films are gone wenn you use LED. Why? because the light is projected from behind. Movies look like they are taken by a cheep digital camera. Read the difference between plasma and led. You will understand why it is that better. Wenn you listen to 2 or 5 channel ( or even more) sound you can better go for an amp, processor and speakers which can make a deep stage. Why? because 3- dimensional sound is superior to 2-dimensional sound. A few months ago I was the absolute sound of a very big audio show. Why? because I had the best 3-dimensional sound in 2 and 5.1 sound. I read that someone was talking about B&W. I played for over 8 years with the 802N and 800 S. I stopped with B&W because they are very poor in cross over filters. There is almost no depth. Depth is the most important part in Highend Audio. Without depth you never will get the absolute sound. Because it stays 2-dimensional. 2-dimensional sound I call standard audio. Because an amp of 100 dollar makes the same kind of image. Onkyo and integra are the only brands in there price tag who can make a wide an deep stage. Marantz and Denon are both 2-dimensional brands. How do I know this? because I sold them for many many years and I tested them hundreds of times. Go find for a dealer were you can listen to Monitor Audio with Onkyo or Integra. Monitor Audio makes the best cross overs in there price tag. They can give a very deep and wide image what will give you the stunning 3-dimensional sound. You wil blow every person away. Like I did at the audio show were I gave my demo. Also Monitor Audio is the best in respons ( speed) compared to there competitors. Speed gives you more control, more precision and a more natural sound. Take your time and do your own research. At the end you will get the best sound what fits you best. I promiss!!! |
My room is very similar to Mr. Baranowskis right down to the pool table, but with a 15ft cathedral ceiling and three window walls..... My concern was filling the room with good sound everywhere in it, and that was going to take sq inches of speaker cones... not little satellites
I went with a KEF Q series system after reading all the reviews and praise.... Mine is used for about 40% music (mostly vinyl), 50% TV and 10% movies. The Q900/600/800 system (about $3500 retail) is just incredible for the price... very musical, great dispersion and imaging throughout the room, and voices etc are tonally perfect. I'm using Ventura 5s for the rear surrounds as a temp solution($300 retail). I added an HSU 15F subwoofer ($1100 w shipping) to the mix to fill in the bottom end musically and for movie effects, and use an old 12" sub to even things out in the room. You would need at least two HSU 15 if you really want the movie punch everywhere. Remember that with Audyssey Equalization anything below 60 to 80htz is suppose to be sent to the subwoofer(s), so buying more expensive speakers for their low end is a bit of a waste (per Audyssey not me). You want to focus on speakers with great dispersion and accuracy for the highs, mids and upper bass...and voices especially, then get enough subwoofer(s) to get the SQL you need.... the KEFs work exceptionally well for in this regard.
You are going to need power to fill a room that size, I am running mine through a Marantz SR6005 ($1000 retail at the time) receiver not separate amps for a wife acceptance factor... easier to understand controls etc. When the time comes, I'll upgrade the receiver to their newest and best model at that time, but for now the Sr6005 works and is very musical... sounds like a Marantz... FYI the KEFs are very efficient so the 110 watts is more than enough when using the subs for everything below 60 hz.
Wife likes the looks of everything except the subwoofers, the HSU15 is large lol But she loves the sound... better than going to the movies per her.
I spent wasy less than your $20K on everything,and was still able to add a great turntable/ cartridge/ phono preamp ($4000).
In addition to your speakers, TV and receiver / amps you need to allocate for a high end blue ray player the OPPO is around $1100 a decent CD player is at least +$2000 and a seperate DAC starts at $1500 and don't forget high quality wires and interconnects where the sky is the limit figure at least $3000...... it all certainly adds up in a hurry..lol |
Used used used... for everything except the processor.
higher end speakers are cheep used and the people that buy them usually keep them well taken care of. save the money! and get better performance at the same time.
two of the larger type subs would work well. you can go new with those if you wish... the usual suspects would work great, svs, hsu , ryhmik.....etc.
can you control the light in the room? if so there is no substitute for a projector (i know you said you have a tv) you can get a real good used on e that is 1080p for CHEAP. make sure you research for the projectors and the screen to match your room.
Amps... that's a hard one, depending on your speakers.. how low the impedance goes, efficiency etc... need to know the speakers first... BUT....
parasound, b&k, anthem all make real good mulichannel amps.
i have a similar room 25' by 25'...dedicated ht, i use half for a billiard table.
my setup is...
110" Stewart filmscreen made for my projector
Sony vpl vw 60 (black pearl)
b&w 802n for the fronts
b&w htm1 center....don't skimp on the center speaker!
b&w 804S for the rears
anthem statement P5 amp
paradigm servo reference 15
marantz av8801 pre amp
send a pm if you have any questions as i do not look onto the forums that much.
Bill |
