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Vandersteen Sub woofers v Rythmik Subs

I really love the idea of the Vandersteen Subs where they are connected with the mains via extra speaker cable off right and left channels off the main amplifier, which is supposed to provide better bass transition from the mains while keeping the signature from the main amplifier. My question is with Vandersteen coming out with the SUB THREE and the price going significantly higher, I was wondering if there are other subs for less that you could integrate in the same way. (Most subs seem to rely on the line level input which is just a sub-woofer RCA going from the pre-amp to the amp on the sub). Can this same Vandersteen set-up be achieved with other subs?
I picked Rythmik since they are known (in the home theater community anyway) for being one of the best bang for the buck subs and the most "musical" of the bunch. (between Hsu, SVS, PSA).
And could I possibly achieve even greater sub-woofer nirvana since I could get an 18" for around $1500? Vandies only have 3 eight inchers.

I am a Vandersteen fanboy and I would like to support RV whenever I can, but don’t know much about my other sub-woofer options so looking for some feedback. Doesn’t even have to be related to Rythmik necessarily. If you know of other subs that can integrate the same way I want to know about it!

Thanks
bstatmeister

Showing 10 responses by lewinskih01

lewinskih01
906 posts
 
I guess I'm on my way to a distributed bass system.

I started with a single REL Storm sub and really enjoyed it.
Later I built two very heavy cabs for a couple Rythmik 12" kits connected at speaker level and it was a significant improvement over the Rel. I experimented several locations and setups also using measurent help and ended using them in stereo taking line in from my pre. While the xo wasn't 100% transparent it relieved my tube amp and speakers from attempting to reproduce up to 80Hz which was worth the tradeoff. This was another significant step up in sound.

Later I experimented with a multiway DAC and created digital xo to drive the subs and main amp directly from the DAC. Now my system is fully active with digital linear phase xo and room correction. No going back!

And I'm considering adding a couple additional Rythmiks. Rythmik kits allow for custom cabinets that make it easier to disguise or integrate into the decor.

FWIW, in his approach Geddes recommends one of the subs to be elevated from the floor so not all subs are exciting vertical modes from the same position (the floor). For this either a small sub or a custom installation is ideal (no way to raise my 50kg subs 2 meters off the floor!!).

Glad to see this approach discussed here.

lewinskih01
906 posts
 
The Audiokinesis Swarm review by The Absolute Sound refers to Geddes.  Earl Geddes published his approach:  https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

For the brief time I had the Rythmik and Rel together I tried his approach and got close to what he described. He calls for summing up sub frequencies and all subs playing the same mono signal, and also some location guidelines and says 3 subs should suffice. My listening area is in my living room so aesthetics are an important consideration and Geddes location guidelines didn't fit into the aesthetics (in my room). Since I can't maximize the potential from 3 subs in mono I'm hoping 4 subs in stereo will be enough to achieve similar results. Worst case I could go to 6 subs! 😨

BTW, note Geddes says he needs little output from the third sub. So a much smaller sub would work, making it easier to conceal in the decor.

Another implication of Geddes approach: if you allow you main speakers and subs to play the low bass in parallel you effectively have 2 additional sources of bass (the main speakers) so it would help achieve those goals. Whether your system sounds better like this vs relieving the mains and amp from reproducing low bass is for each to decide.

Cheers!
lewinskih01
906 posts
 
Some subs have controls to allow for phase correction. My Rel had some adjustability in this regard, and the Rythmiks offers plenty. Of course one needs to be able to measure and adjust and have plenty of patience to get right, but well worth it in my opinion.

Audio always entails tradeoffs. The best speaker design also includes tradeoffs. The trick is to wisely pick which tradeoffs are ok to let go. In my experience the sonic signature of a connector is orders of magnitude less important than getting room acoustics right, and getting sub 80Hz right is key to good room acoustics.
lewinskih01
906 posts
 
Noble100 (Tim), indeed I also have Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction and keep coming back to it for his research with multiple subs. A piece of work with learnings that take time to sink in - at least for me. 

I also agree there are multiple ways to get low bass right and we are probably overloading the OP with info about multiple subs when he's considering 1 or 2. For such a case I would seriously look into a DSPeaker unit to complement the sub/s, and go with 2 subs if budget allows, but still one well integrated sub is generally better than no sub (of course depends on the speakers at play, the sub, the patience, the willingness to learn, etc).
lewinskih01
906 posts
 
@noble100 , @enginedr1960,

What's the crossover frequency and slope of the Swarm system? I understand the xo is before the Swarm amp and all subs operate in the same frequency range, summing up L & R.

My system is set up so the sealed subs cross at 80Hz to the mains, which have dual 6.5" midwoofers per side on vented boxes. I'm building new speakers with dual 10" per side in sealed boxes and hoping to reduce the xo frequency to maybe 60Hz.

lewinskih01
906 posts
 
@noble100 and others interested in room acoustics: which other fora are you active in?

I'm interested in discussing and posting some measurements (which Agon doesn't allow) and would live to engage others who share that interest.

Cheers!
lewinskih01
906 posts
 
@noble100 

Hey Tim!
This Horacio, the Brit from Argentina!!! Hahaha. Fortunately I got to see your post early on, but had not had the time to reply. I'll keep away from political remarks to circumvent censorship.

OK, I'll say forums :-)
I'm very often at DIYaudio, a lot more than here these days. Indeed, there are several forums where room acoustics are discussed. I worked on room acoustics before and I'm getting ready to take it to the next level. Another level of magnitude vs other topics often discussed. It's unusual to come across people who also study it - hence my question.

Cheers mate!
Horacio
lewinskih01
906 posts
 

You can start with 80Hz crossover and later try higher or lower.

Don't know the Vandersteen sub nor M12, but do have multichannel with two F12 as subs. In my experience leaving the bottom to subs is better, provided integration is done right. To do this, in my experience measurement equipment is indispensable and advanced digital xo is very important too.

One step at a time is best. Otherwise the new many variables can get overwhelming.

lewinskih01
906 posts
 

@bondmanp 

Not really. Rythmiks also have the connection to feed off the amp taps, have phase and Q adjustments. But having more variables, hence options, also introduces more uncertainties, which is why sub integration is such a difficult task especially if done without measurement equipment.

lewinskih01
906 posts
 

I haven't used the Rythmiks in this fashion for several years, and I'm away from home for a couple weeks to check, but my recollection is they have the option to connect to the amp taps and have a knob to adjust the xo frequency so your loudspeakers run the full bandwidth and Rythmiks run from the bottom up to the set xo frequency. Another phase knob and PEQ adjustments.

Alternatively there is the option for the internal xo fixed at 80Hz. And lastly the option for line input, which is what I use in my active system but xo and phase correction are done upstream and not really what OP was asking about.

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