Allnic H1201 is probably very good. This is based only on reading, but I have seen back and forth discussions of H1201 vs Herron VTPH2, suggesting that the two are in the same league.
Chakster, Good that you found a reputable seller from which to purchase your rare TFKs.
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Chakster, It seems you repeated back to me exactly what I said to you; an ECC801 is not likely also to bear the stamp "12AT7WA". Apparently we agree on that, and we agree that REAL ECC801s/802s/803s are very rare and very valuable in the crazy tube collector market. If yours are real, good for you. I do have some real Telefunken ECC83/12AX7s, and I only know they are real because I bought them in the 70s, from a reputable source, before this craziness began and before the Chinese and Eastern Europeans started making bogus TFKs and Amperex and etc tubes. And they do sound great, although I only own one piece of gear that uses 12AX7s, a vintage Quicksilver full function phono preamplifier (highly recommended and an amazing bargain, if you can find one for under $1200) which I use for back-up to my Steelhead, on my basement system. Can't use it on my upstairs system, which is all balanced/Atma-sphere and anyway has no 12AX7s in circuit.
Infection, If you choose to purchase the Herron, I strongly advise you to run it with the tubes that Keith Herron has chosen for it. If you cannot resist the business of tube rolling, at least wait a year or so until you have a real idea of the sound of your Herron, so you'll know if substitute tubes make a favorable difference or not. In purchasing the Herron, you would be paying a rather high price for a conventional single-ended design; the justification for that is you are paying for the undeniable expertise of Keith Herron in the bargain. I would guess he has been very careful in selecting what tubes sound best in his circuit.
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I have to wonder about the tubes you mention, specifically the ECC 801/12AT7 WA. Because WA is a suffix that was used I think by Phillips, and Phillips never made any ECC 801’s. At least so far as I know. Your tubes might legitimately be ECC 81s. Real ECC 801, 802‘s, 803‘s and similar became very valuable in the last 20 years. The “0” in the 3 digit number indicates very low noise, tested by the factory.Therefore I would be skeptical about what it says on the box or on the tube, unless you know for sure the provenance of the tube. I have some Telefunken 12 AX7‘s and some Amperex bugle boy tubes that I bought back in the early 1970s. That’s the only reason I feel sure they are for real. |
Dear Chakster, there’s no reason for you to pay any attention to me, but it does seem that you are missing my point. So now you’ve described the particular tube amplifier that you found to be less good sounding then your 1st W amplifier. That proves nothing in general about tubes Vs solid state. That is my point.
For all I know, you may end up preferring a solid-state phono stage to any tube phono stage that you can lay your hands on. That remains to be seen. But I do think you should give it a try.
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Chakster, perhaps your problem is that you have been into an NOS vintage tube equipment and maybe not into the best modern tube equipment. And for sure another problem is that you are conflating phono stages with amplifiers. In my opinion, the output transformer of a classic tube amplifier is the weak link in the chain. Nearly all of the qualities of such amplifiers that are denigrated by those who prefer solid state (bass definition, warm coloration, perceived treble rolloff, etc) stem from the use of a coupling transformer at the interface between the output stage of the amplifier and speaker. But that has absolutely no bearing on the consideration of vacuum tubes versus solid-state when it comes to phono stages. In that case of course there typically is no coupling transformer. Huge swings of energy are not required. It’s a completely different ballgame, and the goals of a quality design are completely different mostly because a phono stage has to impose RIAA correction on the signal and because the signal is very tiny in terms of voltage swing. Most likely you know all this, so I wonder why you couch your argument against tubes based on your experience with power amplifiers. And you don’t name what tube amplifiers you’ve played with either.
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Raul, The OP ASKED about “valve” phono stages, preferably balanced ones. In case you don’t know, valve means tube. So naturally the discussion has been about tube or valve phono stages. And your gross generalizations only reveal your own obsession.
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bpoletti, I don't think you are qualified to argue "facts" with Ralph. The fact that you don't know when you are over your head is only further proof of that. He's too nice a guy to tell you. |
oholter, you have an advantage on me, because you have owned and aesthetics Io and I have not. However everything I can find on the Internet about it suggests that the phono circuit is balanced, contrary to what you say above. Do you know differently?
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Infection, You asked Atma-sphere why "top" phono stage designers use RCA inputs. Here's a list of reasons:
(1) It's been the industry standard for so long that nearly all tonearm cables are built for SE inputs, and "top" designers do not want to scare away any would-be customers for their megabuck products by offering XLR inputs, regardless of whether the internal circuit is balanced or not. Conversely, cable makers seem to shy away from creating true balanced phono cables with XLR termination, again because buyers are used to RCAs and because of the above, there are few phono stages that fully benefit from a balanced cable. (Although it's a good idea to use a balanced cable, even if you do terminate it with a male RCA plug, so that ground is carried on a conductor exactly like the "hot" signal conductor.)
(2) It's much more expensive to build a balanced phono circuit than it is to build an SE one, nearly twice the parts count.
(3) There is a legitimate debate as regards the advantages of a balanced phono circuit over an SE one, and some designers honestly stand by the SE type. But anyone WILL tell you that a phono cartridge (with some oddball exceptions where the two grounds are common) offers a balanced output. I can tell you from my years with the MP1; I NEVER have hum or noise problems with any cartridge.
(4) It's not quite true that all "top" designers used SE phono circuits. If you want to bring solid state devices into the discussion, there are a few very expensive SS designs that are balanced; most significant are those from Nelson Pass, who I consider tops among SS designers. We've also named some other tube phono stages that are balanced; they are not to be sneezed at either. (I can add to the list the late Allen Wright whose all out tube phono stage, the RTP3C, is balanced input to output.)
So, for balanced tubes, we have Atma-sphere, Allnic, Aesthetix, Allen Wright, K&K, Einstein, and I am sure others. |
Infection, Sorry for the misunderstanding, but "PS" is most commonly used as an abbreviation for Power Supply. Since you've apparently relaxed your yen for balanced outputs, all the other phono stages mentioned are superb. In my second system, I use a Manley Steelhead, the big brother to the Chinook. I like it very much.
I once looked long and hard at the K&K preamp (which is also full function but can be used as a phono stage, like the Atma-sphere units), because I wanted a balanced circuit and I like building stuff. (You can buy it as a very flexible "kit".) It has a good reputation, but I've never heard one. But if you choose among Herron, Manley Chinook, and Aesthetix Rhea Signature (see below), you cannot go "wrong".
I briefly owned an Aesthetix Janus, their version of a full function preamplifier that contains, essentially, the Rhea phono stage inside. From that experience, I strongly recommend that you look at the Signature version of the Rhea, not the less expensive non-Sig version. The capacitors of the non-Sig Janus were of a quality level not commensurate with what that circuit can do. (Dare I say they are crappy?) Upgrading the capacitors in the non-Sig Janus resulted in a huge improvement in sound, really improved it from unacceptable in my opinion, to very good. The Signature versions of both the Janus and the Rhea come already done with much better capacitors, among other improvements to the non-Sig versions. |
Dear Infection, I saw your response to me, which I assume relates to my recommendation of an Atma-sphere full function preamplifier, like the MP1 or the MP3 (for much less money) or their third option, for even less money. You say you want a "dedicated PS". I am not sure what that even means in this context. All the Atma-sphere preamplifiers have dedicated PSs. The MP1 PS is a separate outboard box connected to the audio chassis by an umbilical, if that's what you mean you want. Otherwise, I think the other units are one-box types with built-in PSs.
It's interesting to me that each of us has his or her own favored products, and, by George, those products will inevitably be recommended, regardless of what the OP says he wants or needs. The Herron lovers will always come forward when the words "phono stage" are written into the OP. Great though it may be, it is not balanced. I do also agree that Jensen transformers are excellent on any level, even though they are realistically priced. And the guys who build them in SoCal are very smart. |
I would not say that Herron’s customer service is “unmatched”. Atmasphere’s customer service is equally as stellar. And there are many users who would agree with this sentiment. With true balance inputs and true balanced outputs. The only other balanced phono stage that uses tubes for gain that I can think of is the Einstein, and then you need to buy two SE modules to achieve the balanced configuration. Aesthetix Io may also have balanced out. But I am not certain that the circuit itself is balanced.
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Valve preamplifiers with true balanced outputs are in short supply. Certainly some of the best ones are made by atma-sphere. If you go that route you also have the benefit of true balanced phono inputs, which gives you all the benefits of balanced operation.Atmosphere preamplifiers are also full function preamplifiers, so you get a line stage for free and the bargain. I own an MP1 myself and I have been very happy with it for more than a decade. In fact more than 20 years.
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