Gerry we were long time Wilson setup guys and and owners. The WP 7 is a good speaker but is bettered by today’s newer systems which are much more transparent, the Wilson sound is punchy with great dynamics. The newer Wilson are a bit more laid back in the treble since the switch to the new soft dome tweeter which you may or may not like as much. We would recommend that you consider the new Paradigm Persona 9H they cost $20k less then the Alexia and actually outperform them. The Personas are a $60-70k sounding speaker yet are priced at $35k they were just awarded Loudspeaker of the year in Tone audio, http://www.tonepublications.com/as well as receiving a similar accolade in the Absolute Sound. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2017-golden-ear-awards-anthony-h-cordesman/When setup correctly the speaker has a totally holographic sound stage, is very transparent, and has remarkable deep bass. add to that 96 db sensitivity and built in subwoofer amplifiers powering four long throw woofers with dual 700 watt amplifiers and room correction to ensure that the speakers can work in any size room. We have tested and listened to many of todays best loudspeakers including a $120k pair of Kharamas, the $32k KEF Blades, $70k pair of Polymer Audio Research MKX-S, the Dali Epicon $20k and a few others. The Personas are the only reference speaker to offer the following advantages: 1: Pure Beryllium tweeter for stunning clarity 2: Pure Beryllium midrange so you have remarkable detail as well as complete coherency. 3: 96db efficiency and are easy to drive 4: 4 proprietary aluminium woofers aligned in a reaction canceling cabinet which offers true sub-woofer levels of bass down to 19Hz! 5: A rigid yet somewhat light weight cabinet designed by using 7 layers of HDF with a viscoelastic damping layers to eliminate cabinet resonances. 6; Dual 700 watt amplifiers 2 per speaker to power the woofers 7: Anthem Room Correction to apply room correction below 5k designed to align the speakers to achieve a flat room response on matter what sized room. 8: The service and support from one of the leading speaker manufactures in the world! To understand why the Persona can do what they can do all you have to do is invest $4 million dollars and allow Paradigms engineers to run wild. Only a large company such as a Paradigm or a B&W can invest this kind of money. The Persona’s have numerous advantages over the B&W such as bi-amping, self powered bass and of course state of the art room correction. We have been in the industry for over 30 years, the Personas are remarkable and are a testament to how a large company can when they are committed can build one of the world’s best speakers. They are a must audition. If you are ever in our neck of the woods we have the Persona 9H on display with the T+A gear from Germany which is also remarkably good. Just tested a $35k T+A amp and power supply vs $90k a recently updated pair of Boulder 2050 mono blocks and the T+A actually had tighter bas,s the Boulders were a bit better but wow, the T+A were exceptionally and were nearly as good! Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Ah there you are gpgr4blu, as usual another threatened Wilson fanboy. Your negativity is disengnious, you are the one that should be ignored. The Persona speakers or any speaker with superior resoloution can sound bright, Rahido sufferers from the same demanding setup requirements and too many shops that sell the Persona line do not have the setup gear that enables them to perform the way that they can when driven by the better brands of equipment. A couple came to our shop after driving four plus hours after hearing the Personas under perform at another shop, they came away from our demo as proud new Persona 9H owners, along with a T+A amplifier. I heard them at another shop and was also not impressed this shop was using a $3,000.00 Musical Fidelity integrated along with sub $1,000 cables and a cheapie dac because they didn’t have the matching ancellory equipment. I listened through the demo and determined the speakers had potential and took the plunge even though the demo was sub par I came away intrigued. As per taking WP 7, Sashas, or other Wilson’s I have heard way too many Wilson demos at shows and walked away with thinking nice musical speakers, but hardly a fully natural or neutral loudspeaker. I owned the WP 3, and WP 5 and I personally sold more WP then almost anyone ever associated with the brand. Lets face facts Wilson uses good commercially sourced drivers for the majority of what is in their speakers except for their new tweeter, their drivers that are hardly the leaders in the pack for the price they charge so why the high prices? Great cabinets yes, but much of the cost of a loudspeaker is in the performance part of it and Wilson uses very inexpensive drivers compared to the total cost of the loudspeakers. And Musicfix I would also take WP 7 over Martin Logans for a theater, the Wilson will work much better as a theater speaker. It is possible if you heard our demo with the T+A gear and the Personas you may have chosen the Personas over the Sashas Our Persona setup throws a gigantic and completely holographic soundstage which the Wilsons also do, we beat them in terms of coherency, detail, speed, and deep bass as well as flatness in room response the issue with the Personas is getting them to sound smooth on the top end as they have incredible resolution and thus are more sensitive to setup and matching gear. I have almost never heard an offernsive Wilson demo. I would take a Rockport any day of the week much better drivers that they make themselves, and an equilly inert cabinet. I find Magico’s to be too dry for my taste but again they make all their own superior technology drivers and also have a fantastic intert metal cabinet. Just like the T+A gear we champion which is another brand quickly estalishing its reputation in the US just like the rest of the world as being amoung the best gear out there. Grpgru the validity of what we say is mirrored in the press. our setup at the 2016 New York Audio sounded amazing, what we accheived in that small hotel room was an awesome sound. If you look at Tone Audio this month you will see Jeff Dourgay who is a big Wilson fan pronounce the Personas as one of the best speakers available at any price. http://www.tonepublications.com/to quote from the review: Paradigm has created one of the world’s finest loudspeakers the right way, by applying what they’ve learned from decades of research, design and manufacturing know how to produce a speaker with no compromises. There’s nothing they don’t do, nothing they won’t play and from what I can deduce, nothing they won’t partner with regarding electronics. I’ve heard way too many six figure loudspeakers with caveats attached. There are no caveats that apply to the Paradigm Persona 9H speakers, other than the fact that you probably can’t lift them without help. That’s it. This is a world class, zero compro - mise loudspeaker for $35,000/ pair. This level of excellence and execution wasn’t even available ten years ago, and if Paradigm didn’t build everything in house, along with the scale of econo - mies they enjoy, they couldn’t achieve this either The Paradigm Persona 9H will be our Speaker of the Year for 2017. It’s one of the finest speakers I’ve had the pleasure to listen to at any price as well as receiving a similar accolade in the Absolute Sound. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2017-golden-ear-awards-anthony-h-cordesman/ Along with Legacy, Paradigm is one of the two manufacturers I’ve found that can really do room compensation well. Its Persona 9H is truly flat, goes very deep, and is still quick and detailed in the bass. Its low end is matched by a superb new beryllium midrange and tweeter with a great deal of life and resolution but no hardness. With excellent driver integration and something much closer to a point-source presentation than most complex speaker systems, the 9H provides some of the best imaging and soundstage performance around. As per your other snide comment if Bose decided to build the world’s best speakers they could easily out build and out design Wilson or Paradigm or anyone, so can Sony or Apple or Google or anyone with the cash reserves to do so. As per invading Wilson theads dude if you think that a $58k Wilson Alex is a better speaker you should get your ears checked. The Persona 9H is a better, more technologically superior, and greater performing set of speakers, and a much more practical product for $23,000.00 less money. Lets just wait and see how the market reacts so far two esteemed reviewers are saying the same thing that we are saying, how many more before you will learn we know what sounds good and we know value. Here is another wake up call for you, we just did a demo with $35k worth of T+A gear vs $90,000.00 Boulder amps, and the T+A a stereo amp plus outboard power supply had tighter bass then the Boulder amps, the Boulder did sound a bit more transparent and had a bigger sound stage, but considering the almost 3 times more expensive price point the T+A gear was a fantastic perfomer. and perhaps if we had the mono block setup the T+A would have outperformed the Boulder setup. Fact is the Audio Doctor team we know our stuff, and consistantly pick some of the best sounding products at the time and will continue to do so as technology and fair pricing guides us to what we pick along with fantastic sound. Oh and our track record on products we champion Conrad Johnson Art and Gat, Scaena loudspeakers. T+A, Paradigm Persona, Usher loudspeakers, Legacy loudspeakers, Nuforce, Running Springs, every one of these brands has received accolades at the time as being stellar performers. Dave owner Audio Doctor NJ |
I am sorry Yogiboy, Harbeths are not considered in the same league as the Wilson products. Allan Shaw's designs favor articulation and naturalness in the midrange, and lack the dynamic punch, deep bass and overall dynamic range of the Wilson speakers. They are also much less exciting then the Wilson's. So you have perhaps a more neutral speaker over a more exciting one.
I would take a pair of WP 7 over the 40.2 I think you will find very few Wilson guys moving into Harbeths. I read the Paul Seydor review and as a long time Quad owner, that ship has sailed. I went from Quads to WP 3/2 and then to 5 and never looked back, WP sound much more alive and sound much more like live music then Quads.
The issue is would the OP prefer some of the newer loudspeakers that are on the market and these would include the new Wilson speakers and other market leaders, we like the Rockports which are a bit more midrange centric than the Paradigm Personas which are our favorites.
As per electronics the Lamms are very fine amplifiers and of course would produce very good sound on a set of Wilsons. Lamm and Wilson have been showing together for years.
The OP might want to upgrade his electronics over the Mcintosh Mc275 as well. The WP 7 is from 2003, loudspeaker designs and driver technologies have advanced considerably.
It really depends on how deep the OP wants to go.
I do find some of his comments to be a bit off kilter
I found some of the higher resolution music files to be reproduced with too much complexity what does this mean? Does this mean that the greater clarity of the newer Wilson speakers appears to separate musical instruments too precisely rather than creating a musically involving more coherent sound?
Our recommendation would be to go visit a bunch of dealers and see if newer systems and newer components would be satisfying while improving on what the OP likes about his current system.
Hope this helps
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Cstooner, i am sure a lot of people feel you are a commercial for Vandersteens. We sell many great brands including Legacy, as well as the Personas, we also sell PSB, Dali and many others.
Cstooner, you have never been to our shop and have not heard our Persona setup so you do not know if you would prefer our setup to yours.
What you failed to understand is that Paradigms room correction fixes bass issues only it does not compensate for poorly matched systems nor does it fix any issues with the upper octaves. The Personas use room correction to fix bass boom or bloat which is what happens with room positioning or room sizes which are not ideal.
The Persona room correction affects bass only, so for example if you still have an echo box for a room, or poorly matched components, or bright cable etc they are not going to magically compensate for any of those issues. Only Legacy which uses a full range room correction system will have any hope of fixing or ameliorating any of those issues.
We are also not saying that we are the only ones that can make the Personas sound good, they are incredibly transparent and are therefore much more sensitive to what you use with them.
This is the same issue with any suitable high resolution speaker system but is compounded with a system which uses Beryillium drivers for both the midrange and tweeter, the Persona's don't hold anything back which is both good and bad.
If you look at both the Tone review and the Absolute Sound review of the Personas both reviewers obviously had great components.
I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that their are Persona dealers who do not have good matching components, or the right rooms, what might have worked with one brand of loudspeakers may or may not work ideally with another and unless you sell multiple lines of gear you may or may not be able to create a musically satisfying results.
So the issue is go with easier more forgiving speakers which there are tons or properly setup a superior high resolution set of speakers which enable you to hear everything and spend the time and money to find the right matching gear.
Cstooner if you want to hear one of the most remarkably life like systems on the East Coast, just give us a call, you may end up being very surprised at what you will experience.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Gpgr4blu,
You need to get your facts straight, Andy was the number one salesman for the shop, I was number two, hardly lowly. For most of my tenure at SBS and for the three years I worked at Innovative I had the consistently highest sales numbers, why, because I cared, and I listened and compared components, and lastly I was not afraid to work and often moved components from room to room to assemble a system for my clients that sounded magical, when too many other sales people would just play what systems were setup.
As per brands I promoted as the best Vac, Cat, Conrad Johnson, Wilson, Focal I guess these are also lowly brands?
As per you and your friends avoiding me perhaps you preferred Andy’s deft touch? Andy was all about finding the most expensive gear imaginable and if there was another setup for 1/3 the price that was 90% as good, i am willing to bet you Andy would be running the other way.
I think you actually agreed with me that I found that at the time the Bel Canto Universal player with a Shunyata cable on an HRS or Black Diamond base sounded nearly as good as a $40k DCS stack yet cost less than 1/4 the price.
Andy lost Wilson when Dave Wilson was paranoid about Eggleston and Focal being a threat to their sales position and Andy was told choose us or them, Andy to his nature told Wilson that nobody tells him what to do and they then allowed Innovative to sell them in NYC.
As per Usher being 1/2 the price as a Wilson and being as good, I never said that, what I said is that the Usher can compete with speakers that are much more expensive and they do use superior driver technology and cost much less, Kind of similar to what we value in the Personas, advanced technology at a lower cost, Wow I must be a bad person for finding products that consistently perform at a very high level yet actually cost less.
We were the first US dealer to find and promote the Auralic Vega which at $3,500 sounded nearly as good as a $7,000 Meitner MA 1 guess which one we sold more of and which one we told our clients to purchase?
The Ushers Be 10 and 20 were remarkable loudspeakers and sounded amazing for the price. It has taken years for the market to produce a set of speakers which is really better. We stopped selling the line as Usher USA folded and it was not clear who would be representing them, the other issue was their incredible weight the BE 20 weighed 300 lbs.
As per annoying who, if you actually paid attention to many of my comments we are telling people to examine a lot of different products and not just ones that we sell. You are the one who sounds like a broken record.
As per all the brands you mentioned outselling the Persona lets see where the market leads, right now Personas are starting to sell and are consistently getting rave reviews by every reviewer who hears them, and they haven’t even started really promoting the line they only started shipping the product less then a year ago.
It has taken Wilson 43 years to build their reputation as an uber speaker maker, only now has Paradigm released a reference line of speakers so I am willing to bet Paradigm will do it quite a bit faster.
Please stick to your Wilson speakers, and enjoy them. As I said I owned Wilson Watt Puppy 3/2 and 5 and have setup Maxx 3, Wp 7, and many others.
I would purchase a set of Vivid G1 or G2 or a set of Rockports over almost any Wilson product, and the Persona’s are a flat out steal for their sound quality, build quality, advanced room correction and flat out good looks, and they are selling really well by the way! You may think that I hate Wilson I don't I like their speakers I just find that they are getting way too expensive for what the customer is getting, I would take a pair of Wilson's over the Magicos as I find the Magico are too sterile sounding for my taste.
As to the reason I post is to hopefully spread some of the knowledge I have gained in 30+ years as doing this for a profession. I promote brands to get more people to know about them and hopefully save them money.
I am constantly learning and I have a friend who runs an audio magazine who is constantly turning me on to the latest tweeks.
I always knew about T+A but it wasn't until I read the Absolute Sound review where Allan Taffel compared a $18k T+A integrated to $120k worth of CH Precision gear did I want to hear the line. I thought to myself if a $18k amp sounded similar to $120k worth of state of the art electronics that would be something great.
You would be surprised that most dealers don't think that way.
I would take a pair of Person 9H over a pair of Wilson Alexia any day, and be rejoicing in my flat bass response, greater efficiency, and superior resolution, and I guess you can purchase a really nice dac or amp or preamp for the $20k less expensive price point, but I guess you have more money then brains so we will leave it like that.
You remind me of many of the know it all customers that would often come to the store, and the sales people would all laugh at them once they left as their lack of knowledge was staggering and they often kept buying new gear over and over again because they didn’t understand synergy.
The reality of this industry is the real magic only happens when you can create a combination of components that really work well together and over the years I have seen and heard way too many systems that just sounded awful, I wonder if yours would be one of them?
You fail to understand that we have a reputation for making fantastic sound and doing it for less money then other dealers because of my testing and always evaluating new and better products.
And get your facts straight we tested the Personas vs a $120k set of Kharmas Grand Exquites and they were lovely just not worth the four times great amount of money for a speaker without the advantages of the Persona and just because a set of speakers or an amp or a dac is really expensive doesn’t make it better. We liked the Kharma DB 9 which were lovely but did not have the advantages of the Personas.
Normally I would end a rant like this with a personal invite to my shop but I wouldn’t want to extend an invitation to someone who is beyond help and professes to know more than a 30 year veteran.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ
|
Gerry, the best advice we can give you is to come to New York for a weekend. New York City is one place in the country with an abundence of brick and morter audio dealers and over a weekend you can hear properly setup systems with alot of choices in terms of electronics and digital options which is something you will not get a a regional audio show, you will also hopefully get a chance to hear systems which have been dialed in properly. Only in NY City can you visit so many good dealers and sample Wilson audio at Innovative Audio, along with Dynadio and Spendor Personas at Audio Doctor, along with KEF Blades, KEF Reference, Legacy, Dali, ATC, PSB, Polymer and many others There are B&W on display at Lyric also with Nola and Focals and theyare also Wilson dealers. Singer sells Rhaido and a few other lines of speakers. Vandersteen is on display at Audio Connection along with Proac and B&W in NJ which is where we are. Ears Nova sells Kharma Rhasody sells Magico and others Just the tax savings alone will make the trip worthwille and I am sure you can find demos products that many dealers will be willing to deal on as floor demos usually get rotated once a year due to small scratches, and dings which occur whenever you have to move around your displays. New York City is one of the few places in the world of audiophilia that you can quickly sample 4-5 major dealers and when you add in NJ you can listen to almost all of the major brands which unfortunately something that is not possible in many parts of the country. As per hearing the Personas in Grand Rapids I checked out that dealers website and they are a large custom installer rather then being a more dedicated home audio dealer, their cable listed were Tributaries and Clarius, didn’t see any Dacs on their website either other than Mcintosh, so I would doubt even if they had the Personas you would get a good demo. We have the Personas with T+A electronics which are among the best sounding high end electornics on the market and they range from a $11k integrated to $50k plus seperates. We sell most of the best digital front ends from Lumin, Aurender, Emm Labs, T+A, Naim, Mytek, Rega and a few others. We sell cables from Enklein, Wireworld, and are going to demoing a few others. We sell power conditioning from Audience, Isotek, Audio Magic and we sell a wide range of electronics aside from the T+A, Naim, Electrocompaniet, CJ, Synethis of Italy, Manley, Micromega, Anthem, Nuprime, Parasound and others. So you can see our focus is on high end two channel although we are also known as a great home theater store, music is our passion. The rest of the stores I listed are also dedicated music stores as well with fantastic ranges of products. So again take a nice trip see the big city take in a show, have a great diner, and just go to audio nirvanah. You can sample the wares of many of the best area dealers and if you then decide to get a system I am sure any of these dealers us included could get you what you want. By the way we are not saying that local dealerships shouldn’t be your first stop it is just Hotels in Jersey City are plentiful and less expensive than ones in the city and Newark airport is 15 mins from our shop. So if you wanted to vist wether or not you purchase anything from us is fine, we would arrange for you to be picked up, taken to a good hotel, and have the audio weekend of your life. We would make the same offer for anyone here. What this thread has brought to the forefront is the difficulty that many music lovers face in this great country, which is the difficulty to actually demo a range of components properly. If you ever want to reach us directly Audio Doctor NJ our out of date old website www.audiodoctor.com new one coming here is a link to our actual store this was short 1.5 years ago before the Personas, Light Harmonic Davinci and T+A electronics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPIn3pEmI4https://www.facebook.com/122499304489958/photos/a.122500301156525.22643.122499304489958/138072913200... |
As usual Gpg4blu, you speak without knowing anything. My father was an inventor with 13 patents to his name, and he also built audio components in his spare time for fun, he had a Bachelors degree in both Electrical engineering as well as Mechanical, guess who worked with him in his projects? I started playing with Dynaco components at age 3 and had a reel to reel deck when I was 5, and discovered high end at 17 so you might be older but I started quite young. I also built Dynakits and had my own ST 70 and Pas 3 and ran DCM Time Windows and Heil AMT 1D, I also built and modfied speakers as well. I owned a system at 20 which was better than most 50-60 year olds: Quad 63 USA monitors, Entec subs, Electrocompaniet preamp, MFA amp, Merrill table, Alphason arm, Ortophon MC 2000 wih matching transformer. That was my first mega rig. Point I am making is I too have owned a boat load of great gear. In my 30 years of doing audio as a FULL TIME JOB, I have setup and listened to hundreds of systems and more components than you can possibly imagine. Whether you like it or not unless your income came from the audio business you were and still are a hobbyist, and not a professional in the audio business. As per writing for a magazine, many magazines hire people because they write well, I have been to several prominent reviewers and their systems sucked and I have also heard several great systems at reviewers as well. and lastly YOU DON"T READ! Jeff Dourgay of Tone Audio rated the Personas as being better speakers than everything he reviewed in 2016 and that included Wilson Alexias http://www.tonepublications.com/to quote from the review: Paradigm has created one of the world’s finest loudspeakers the right way, by applying what they’ve learned from decades of research, design and manufacturing know how to produce a speaker with no compromises. There’s nothing they don’t do, nothing they won’t play and from what I can deduce, nothing they won’t partner with regarding electronics. I’ve heard way too many six figure loudspeakers with caveats attached. There are no caveats that apply to the Paradigm Persona 9H speakers, other than the fact that you probably can’t lift them without help. That’s it. This is a world class, zero compromise loudspeaker for $35,000/ pair. This level of excellence and execution wasn’t even available ten years ago, and if Paradigm didn’t build everything in house, along with the scale of economies they enjoy, they couldn’t achieve this either The Paradigm Persona 9H will be our Speaker of the Year for 2017. It’s one of the finest speakers I’ve had the pleasure to listen to at any price as well as receiving a similar accolade in the Absolute Sound. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/2017-golden-ear-awards-anthony-h-cordesman/Along with Legacy, Paradigm is one of the two manufacturers I’ve found that can really do room compensation well. Its Persona 9H is truly flat, goes very deep, and is still quick and detailed in the bass. Its low end is matched by a superb new beryllium midrange and tweeter with a great deal of life and resolution but no hardness. With excellent driver integration and something much closer to a point-source presentation than most complex speaker systems, the 9H provides some of the best imaging and soundstage performance around. As per me hating Wilson I don’t, I like their speakers and was an owner of the 3/2 and 5, but I find the company has lost its way in the pursuit of ever increasing profits. How many speaker companies come out with a next generation product as frequently as Wilson with each model getting a huge price hike over the last one, nor does Wilson use state of the art drivers which are expensive like Magico, YG, Rockport or Paradigm does, sorry in my 30 + years of professional audio I have never heard a soft dome with the airyness and ultimate resolution of a good diamond or beryilium driver. I do love the ATC we sell but they don’t have the clarity and insanly holographic sound that the Personas do, they have their own merits and for the money they are fantastic. You also fail to READ where I have said that I extoll products that I like even ones that I don’t sell such as Rockport. In one of my posts I said we compared a $32k T+A amp and power supply vs a $90,000.00 pair of Boulder amps, and found that the T+A had better bass but the Boulder was still a bit better in some ways, and I also said the T+A was remarkable for standing up to a product 3 times the price. What you fail to realize is I call them the way I hear them. I also value technogy and cost for the dollar,, the fact that the Persona uses state of the art room correction means that the Paradigm speakers will produce cleaner bass in most rooms vs any Wilson product because they do not have that advantage of superior technology. You also recognized that I came up with a $9k digital combo that came to striking distance of a $40k DCS stack which you recognized as being true. You may hate the messenger but you shouldn’t hate the message. You may not like my style but my ears and integrity and system setup knowlege is well known call up Kevin Hayes of Vac, and ask him about me, call up Ted Denny of Synergistic and ask him the same way, you can call almost any manufacturers that over the years that I have championed that I know my stuff. I am also not saying there aren’t others in the industry that produce good sound. what I find apalling is the lack of real system synergy and setup that way too many systems don’t sound like real music, sorry Quad and Harbeth guys if your system can’’t play live jazz and sound like live jazz you have a colored, non dynamic system. I also owned Quads for 8 years before moving into the Watt Puppies, large panels suffer from an out of phase rear wave which means equil and opposite reactions cancel out which stunts the dynamics that the speakers have, I have yet to hear a panel which sounds as realistic as a good dynamic speaker. My mission has always been to seek out the best possible sound for the most reasonable price possible, hence my experimentation which found that a well tweeked Bel Canto Universal player could compete with the 4 times the price DCS stack how many dealers would make it a point to show you that if they knew your could afford a DCS stack? Over the years I discovered and promoted many brands that the industry now holds in great regard these include: Nordost, BAT, Vac, Meadowlark Audio, Nuforce, Scaena, Balanced Audio Technology, Auralic, Running Springs. I went gung ho with demonstrating that a Black Diamond racing shelf and footers could dramatically improve a system and was admonised by the general manager of Innovative at the time for not selling more expensive CD players instead of showing how tweeking up a less expensive player could actually improve the player to a point where a $1k player could sound better than a $3k one, you know the last part of the demo was it was replacing the $1k player with the $3k player on the isolation bass. I could go on and on, about the cool tweeks we use to dramatically improve a sound system, and I am so sure I could dramatically improve your system, the sad thing is you have such an adversarial way about you it is just sad this hobby is in the pursuit of making music sound real and emmotional. We post because the bad advice on these forums is just coppious and the biases that people have are ridculous. Yes we champion products that we feel are superior but in my 12 years of running my own shop we have changed a lot of companies out for others, and that has always been in the pursuit of finding the best products for our clients, and best doesn’t necessarily mean the most expensive either. We are always on the look out for new products that may be better. Your thinking that the Personas are good but not world class loudspeakers reek of snobery and closemindness. When the press who like me do this professionally say that the Personas are easily in this uber class makes you look awefully foolish. If you like your Wilsons great for you, the fact that a Persona speaker can challenge them and perhaps outperfom them is going to be a fact as more and more reviewers listen to a well setup pair. Look at the Axpona setup where Paradigm was showing $35k spekaers on a $4.5k amp, with probably inexpensive cables do you think that is going to sound amazing? We have the same $4.5k amp it is very nice but not in the same class as our expensive stuff. If you were not blown away by our setup could it have been you were in the wrong seat. I tuned that room for one or two seats to be optimium that was all. If you were in the wrong seat you didn’t get the best sound. Dave Owner Audio Doctor NJ |
To both CT and Mr M, what you are talking about in terms of laughing at a client never actually happened! I was not speaking literally, as a professional salesman you have to put up with a lot of charachters, some people you can understand, and work with, and others you just can’t.
We did discuss the know it all customers, who were not open to coaching and keept on making the same mistakes over and over again, purchasing and repurchasing components, always chasing their tails because they didn’t know what they were doing, or thought they knew more then the sales staff did.
Gndrbp does nothing but attack me and my and my staff, over and over again, which makes me have to resort to long winded explanations and ancedotal evidence to prove him wrong and back up my postions.
The entire sales staff at my store, SBS or Innovative, never sat around and cackled at annoying, or know it all clients. I mentioned this to prove a point.
Ctstooner, you have mentioned your high ranking position with the Navy, do you think I would know 1/100th about the Navy as you do? If we were talking about technology, Navel strategy or deployment I would defer to your superior experience in both deference and respect for your position.
I may have watched specials on Navel history, Ctstooner but I would never even begin to challenge a Navy man with my knoweldge about that subject, instead I would sit and listen to you about all things about Navel operations.
I might quite Robert Mcnammara, but I would never pretend to be as knowledgable as you, I could reference the British Navy under Trafalgar, but again, book knowlege and TV knowledge isn’t the same thing as real world experience.
Do you see my point? There is a difference between having a personal preference which I can respect, and being an unrelenting jerk who attacks another person out of spite.
To state that the Personas are not world class speakers when Jeff Dougay of Tone Audio who has reviewed quite a number of speakers said that the "Personas are world class and competitive with six figure loudspeakers, " and Anthony Cordesman, said the Personas are among the best speakers he has heard, states catagorically that the product is that good.
Now personal taste is personal taste, but Ctstooner, I have invited you into my shop to see for yourself if you might actually prefer the Personas over the Vandersteens and for whatever reason you seem not to be interested.
You have said you have heard the Personas before and not liked them, that maybe true, but as I commented you didn’t hear my setup, as I have also told you I didn’t like the Personas, when I first heard them at another dealers shop as well.
Setup is key, John Rutan is a very good setup guy, and so am I, many others who sell this kind of gear are not.
When I mentioned that one couple drove four hours to hear our setup after not liking the Personas where they heard them, and subsequently purchased a set of the Persona 9H and a T+A amplifier says a lot about setup quality.
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Mr. M. you have also not read the majority of our posts. The Persona line starts at $7,000.00 for a bookshelf speaker with a 7 inch pure Beryilium midrange, which is a driver usually seen in $15-20k reference monitors not ones that someone can actually afford. They also have a $10k floor stander the 3F which are also remarkable. I talk about ATC speakers $2,500.00 a pair and $4,000.00 a pair. I talk about Legacy Focus Signatures $7,000.00 a pair which can compete with many $15k loudspeakers. I have talked about Nuprime’s outstanding IDA 8 which is $995.00 and it is amazing. The point I am making is I design and setup systems from all price ranges. If you care to watch our 2 year old store video you will see tons of affordable gear, from $500.00 pairs of Kef, $800.00 PSB and tons of other great and affordable gear. (this video was shot before we got the Paradigm Personas and the T+A gear) My store sells streaming speakers from Paradigm and NAD for $500 and we go all the way up to our two reference rigs with the Kef Blades and the Personas which are both really expensive systems. As per value, yes $35k is a lot of money for a set of loudspeakers, but if that $35k pair of loudspeakers can compete with ones that sell for $58k or $70k or $120k a pair then believe it or not that speaker even at $35k is a bargain! High end audio can be very expensive it can also be remarkably affordable, we sell tons of affordable stuff from NAD, Micromega, KEF, PSB, Dali, April Music and Naim to name a few. Check out our store video and see what is there we have four sound rooms chock full of gear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPIn3pEmI4Look at our posts on Facebook you can see four different integrated amplifiers from Anthem, Naim, Micromega, and Nad, you can see ATC speakers and Legacy models. https://www.facebook.com/Audio-Doctor-High-End-Audio-Boutique-122499304489958/Believe it or not Mr M our mission is to seek outstanding products at great values at all levels and price ranges now compare our store to some of the storried NY City stores such as Ears Nova, Audio Arts or Rhapsody check out Rhapsody’s store video and see if you can find a system in their store for $1,000.00 I doubt you will, however, you can find several setups in our shop for $1,000.00 for a complete system! Dave owner Audio Doctor NJ |
James,
As usual Grgp4blu takes a discussion where we have come in and given good advice about possible options including products we sell and a recommendation to visit other dealers to hear a wide variety of competiting products into an arena for personal attacks, which require me or my staff to write over and over again the points, he never seems to get.
I shouldn’t have to mention over and over again the Tone Audio or Absolute Sound review for him to get it. He may not like or have experienced the product correctly but to deny the facts that this is an upcomming and excting new market leader or competitor is just ignorent and silly his comments are designed to bait and attack.
To say that Paradigm a company who spent $4 million dollars in research is in the same company as Golden Ear is just stupid, I am not saying that Golden Ears speakers are good bad or anything, Paradigm is one of the largest speaker manufactuers in North America they can build anything at any price they want. It is like comparing the capability of Ford motors to a small independent company.
This isn’t a matter or personal taste or him in reality making any salient or valid points, this is childish behavior.
The point is and should be these products are tools, quite frankly my company does not believe in favoring any brand ad infinitium.
This means if we find something better we move into that and champion that product or brand. The idea that a vendor is always producing the best products leads to stagnation and eliminates the reality of this or any market that their will always be new and innovative new companies popping up to challenge the status quo.
If Toyota comes out with a revolutionary engine design, it causes the other car companies to revaluate their technology which then means many other companies will go back to the drawing board to up their game.
High end audio is one of the few industries where brand relationships, advertising, and marketing can mean more than sound quality or technological supperiority.
Yes there are Porsche guys and Ferrari guys, (the oldest comapanies to make high peformance cars,) but when a newer company such as Konisberg, or Lotus, Lamborgini, Pagonda, comes into the market the car guys acknowledge that this new product may outperform their current cars, but the car guy mentality is to purchase that car and marvel at what it does and how it is different and unique, not a Ferrari is better than a Porsche or a Ferrari is better than a Pagonda.
All exotic cars are usually well made, and are thrilling pieces of technology yet they all have a personality.
If you go back to the discussion at hand I have owned Wilson loudspeakers along Magneplaners, Monitor Audio, Spica, Quads, Sonus Fabers, and more than a zillion others both professionally and privately.
The mentaility here expoused by some of these gentleman is to ignore that the reason for Magico, YG, and Rockports market emmergence to challenge Wilson, is that Wilson has been the most sucessful high end speaker company in their nieche segment of the market and they are the gold standard in how to build a high end audio company.
I am not picking on Wilson as Gpgr4blu thinks, or denegrating their product but the world is changing hence the reason for all of these other companies nipping at their once singular market share.
The entire world of audio has seen landmark changes, first the LP, then the CD, now streaming. Technology allows for companies to offer things that were not possible and over time these technlogical wonders come down in price,
If you think that room correction, self amplified speakers and advanced driver technolgies will not pop up more frequently and in more companies products you are not seeing the future.
Room correction is a gigantic improvement that can dramatically help people accheive the impossible great bass response in almost any room no matter the size.
If you are a smart consumer you will not be wed to one brand but when looking for an improvement, you will seek to listen to all the market leaders in high performance loudspeakers and that includes digital, analog, electronics etc.
You may prefer the sound of Vandersteen, or Magico or Wilson that is not my point, the point I have tried to make time and time again in these posts is that there is a new rival to these storried brands and you are doing yourself a dis-service if you don’t find a well set up pair and take a listen.
I am also not saying we are the only ones in the country to make the Personas sound good, but I am saying that with a company as large as a B&W or a Paradigm you will invariably find dealers that are large dealers that most likely will not have the right rooms, setups, or matching gear to get the best sound out of them. Magnolia sells B&W 802D3 do you think that most of their stores will have them setup with the appropriate wire, power conditioners, lack of other speakers directly next to them, matching components such as ARC, Mark Levinson Conrad Johnson, Naim, Prima Luna, or will you see Mcintosh. Again not picking on Mcintosh but are they the market leaders in affordable digital such as Mytek, or Lumin, or any one of a zillion dedicated dac brands, same with electronics is Mcintosh as good as Arc, Pass Labs, T+A, Sim audio? These systems are usually sold to people that are not audiophiles so they only know what they are introduced to.
I have never seen such hostility directed at a brand such as this. If it was some tiny upstart new company, like an Estelon, or x,y or z, I am willing to bet some of the gasps that how can Paradigm build a product such as this would not be mentioned.
The fact that any suitable company can build anything is driven by corporate reality, your pocket book, intent and market positioning.
When I have mentioned T+A and have said they are in the same ball park at much more expensive productst they are, how do we know, we have done comparisons with them vs Boulder, MBL, Krell and others as well as reading what critics have said about the brand.
We are in fact having the same discussion right now concerning nuclear weapons, and North Korea, the fact that Mutual Assured Destruction has been keeping the world safe for years has been a reality.
North Korea will never give up the weapons they have won at such a high cost, the pragmatic real diplomat, and negotiator would recognize this. The way to keep a bigger opponent at bay is to have a weapon as well and as North Korea is the smaller opponent, they have chosen a path that they will never back down from.
To make a condition for negotion they having to disarm first is ludicrious, both sides have to make concessions for peace to be won.
My point is that you can’t put your head in the sand and utter belicoise statments, Paradigm is now in the uber loudspeaker building business and their acheivments should be lauded.
If I was looking for speakers in the $60k price range and I could save $20 to $30k and find something I liked as much or better, I would think that would be a good thing and not saying by Gpgr4blu you are trolling a Wilson post or a whatever post, the idea is to produce great sound, the brand should be irrelevant, and not a mine is bigger than yours kind of thing.
Many real buyers are open to suggestion. The fact that the Paradigm Personas are a new product, at a new price point and are not as well known for these reasons is why we are talking about them in the first place because many prospective buyers do not know of them.
And if Grgr4blu thinks money is rainning down on our little company because of these posts he is seriously mistaken, we can not sell these products into Canada, or into Europe or Japan, we are not allowed to sell them out of state unless we have a great reason to do so and the grief in that case can be unbelievable.
So to recap, Wilsons aren’t bad and they certaintly are not better or worse than any other speaker company, Paradigm Personas aren’t necessarily better but may be depending on what you value, nor is Magico, Focal, Kharma, YG better or worse products, these are all valid choices. So are Kharma, Vandersteen, Vivid etc.
In my opinion I would take the Persona 9H over many of todays other reference speakers, because I have gotten amazing sound in my showroom with my equipment in a carefully matched setup.
Everyone reading these posts can come and take a listen to our setups and see for themselves.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ
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Folkreak I dont like being attacked and no one here should have to.
What is apparent to me is the snobbery present by many members.
I wounder if Sandy Gross built a $50k speaker and it sounded dramatically better than an $200k set of speakers would his creation get the same flak?
I have owned many speakers, amps & preamps and I would easily swap out when I found something better.
Look at 4425 comments instead of saying wow those are cool do you know where I could hear them?
We get I just can’t consider Paradigm in the same vein. Just a bias I understand. It’s a Chevy vs BMW optic that’s hard to overcome.
To which i would reply who cares who made them if they sound better than x y or z brand that should suffice.
This is not a cult it is about a passion for music and that should be all it is about.
Tools is tools if you find a better one you buy it.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor
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Grbgr4u,
Please just go away, you are not doing anyone a service, your constant negativity and selfrighoutness cause me or my staff to retort over and over again to back up my positions, which leads to these long posts.
Again, I shouldn't have to mention over and over again, Tone Audio's Reviews, or the Absolute Sounds reviews to PROVE BEYOND A SHADOW of a doubt that the Personas are a serious new addition to the world of high performance speakers, you can not deny that fact just because we champion the product.
Whether or not someone hears a well setup pair of Personas in a shop such as mine or another well set up pair somewhere, and they come to the same conclusion is a matter of personal taste. Just as if they choose Wilson, Rockport, YG or anything else over a set of Personas.
What is unfortunate is that many people here base their buying decisions on limited data, or limited exposure, so for example if customer x hears speaker Y at one shop and that shop hsd a well set up demo room and speaker b is setup poorly in another shop, the client may be making a purchase decision based on wrong data.
Your calls of impropriety for writing on a Wilson post to call attention to a set of speakers that might make the poster happier and save them money is proof of your bad and selfish behavior. Most people really don't care.
Many people who post here are seeking opinions and are trying to make a decision on what to purchase. There were other people mentioning a whole bunch of speakers on this post, yet I am the only person you berate over and over again.
I like a lot of products and some of these that I don't sell I would own, while others I would not.
The fact that you and your freinds don't want to work with me is no problem, on the same token please keep on wasting your money, I am quite sure I could have saved you a ton of it and perhaps have made your system sound much, much better.
Am I loquacious yes I am, am I knowelegable yes, an I known for consistantly geeting good sound and finding emmerging brands yes all of that is true.
Lets see if you will shut up or have to retort to this post, I am ready to move on can you?
I have recommended to the poster that he comes to NY to hear the world of audio from many dealers other than myself. Do you have any other coaching for this gentleman?
Dave owner,
Audio Doctor NJ
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As usual Gprgrblu, you have to have the last word. Do you have any practical advice other than what I have given to this gentleman?
Do you have anything to add please advise us?
Do you know that I am approached by people reading these posts who contact me and find much of what I am saying to be valuable.
I wouldn't have to "sell, sell and oversell if you would just shut your trap.
Again, how many times do I have to retort to your stupidity, you make ridiculous statements that have to be backed up again, so it appears to you that I am doing this "selling" which is my way of replying to you to validate my claims and prove you don't know what you are talking about.
What you seem to think of as selling as us stating ancedotal evidence to back up the claims you refute. You also equate price with performance.
When I said we had the $120k Kharma Grand Exquistes here would you like to see a picture of them in their crates? I am more than happy to oblige.
I did love the Kharma DB9 by the way, but they did not sound as good as the Polymers, the Personas are the first $35k speakers which can actually challange the Polymers which are remarkable speakers by the way.
Do you think I would shell out $60 or 70k to bring in a set of speakers which as I said were good but not better than a $70k pair of Polymers that I allready own? Do you actually understand that retailers have to purchase their display stock and so I am going to be very picky at what I am going to pay for.
You can see the $70k Polymers in my store video as well as the Blades I have posted videos did you actually see how much gear and the quality of brands we represent? That is one of the ways that I know what I am talking about.
Do you want to see a picture of us comparing the T+A to the Boulder ata cutomers house? Again I got that too. Did you read my comments on that comparison? Would you like to talk to the man who was there?
I don't know how old you are I am 52 and quite frankly I haven't witnessed too many people in this or any other business who are as blatently vindictive and nasty as you are.
You make statement after statement which you can't back up, I can back up mine. Every product I have ever championed has become at the time the go to product in that catagory or one held in high regard from the critics. From the AMR CD 77, to the Auralic Vega, to the CJ Art and Gat. to the Scaena speakers, the Ushers and many others.
I call em as I see em, and as I stated before there are products I don't sell that I like, at this point there isn't too much on the market that I would actually care to bring in that I don't allready carry.
If you don't have anything pertinent to add to this man's quest for new speakers or do you want to go on another diatribe about me and "selling" please just go away.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ
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Gpgr4blu, you just couldn’t help your self now could you.
How about WHAT CAN YOU ADD to the DISCUSSON at hand, which is not about me, my store, or my knoweledge, whether or not you like my
"salesmanship, " but about upgrading from Wilson Watt Puppy 7.
And for the record I was a WIlson owner, with both Watt Puppy 3/2 and 5.not to mention I have current customers with WP 7 and Maxx 3.
So again, please either add something about SPEAKERS or just go sulk in a corner.
Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ |
