Tubes vs Solid State - Imaging, Soundstaging, 3D

Michaelkingdom
In my experience, SS always seems to image more sharply and offer the deepest, clearest field....

I am using an Octave V40se with Svetlana Winged C EL34s. The Gold Lions were reissues in a Cary SLI-80 signature.

To the extent that it may be safe to generalize, given that there will inevitably be exceptions, my perception has been that the prevailing viewpoint among experienced audiophiles is that a particular strong point of tube amplification tends to be imaging and dimensionality. And that has certainly been my experience, and the experience of several of the others who have responded.

We can only speculate as to why your experience has been the opposite. Perhaps the speakers you have used with the two tube integrateds are not ideal matches for tube amplification, as was suggested earlier. Also, the Octave amplifier is unusual in that it provides only a single output tap, which is ostensibly suited to a wide range of load impedances, but who knows what tradeoffs that might entail with any given speaker.

Also, do you feel confident that your combination of speaker positioning, listening position, room configuration and acoustics, and the radiation patterns of the speakers you have used with the tube amps is conducive to good imaging? One speculative possibility that occurs to me is that if those factors in your particular setup are not conducive to sharp and well defined imaging, the reduction in dimensionality and image size that may occur with many solid state amps relative to many tube amps may be compensatory.

Regards,
-- Al

10-19-13: Charles1dad
Wolf,
Very funny post ....

+1.

On another note, I'd like to emphasize to everyone that the OP has referred to using speakers and amplifiers and/or integrated amplifiers that are each in the $1K to $5K price class. And he has asked a specific question about imaging. It seems to me that generalized debates about the merits of tubes vs. solid state are not on point.

Regards,
-- Al

Well said, Jeff (Jwm). I would add that besides the reaction of your friend being immature, it also reflects a lack of understanding of the fact that the sonic performance of the specific digital cable in the system in which he heard it may have been completely different than its performance in your system, due to differing interactions between its own technical characteristics and the technical characteristics of the components it was connecting. Even for a given cable type and a given system, differences in the length of a digital cable can result in completely different sonic effects, for reasons that are easily explainable. Those interested can read this paper by A'gon member Audioengr (Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio).

Undoubtedly in many arguments about the sonic performance of audio components and cables those on both sides of the argument are correct, in the sense that they are accurately reporting what they heard. But what is often lacking on both sides is an understanding of the interactions and system dependencies that are involved. Interactions between amplifier output impedance and speaker impedance vs. frequency characteristics, for example, amplifier output impedance of course being very different between most tube amps and most solid state amps.

Best regards,
-- Al

... generally speaking, solid state amps tend to have less low level detail (the why of this is a topic for a different thread but in a nutshell has to do with how the human ear interacts with the noise floor of the amplifier; if anyone is interested I can go into that in greater detail, if you will pardon the expression).

Thanks, Ralph. When you get a chance, I for one would find that explanation to be of interest.

Best regards,
-- Al

David/Melbguy1, sincere condolences on your loss.

10-23-13: Swampwalker
... It will get better over time and remember it wouldn't hurt so much if there hadn't been so much love.

IMO this is one of the best single sentences I can recall ever reading on the Internet. Thanks, Michael. It's helpful to me as well, as my mother passed away a few months ago.

Best regards,
-- Al

Ralph, thanks for the explanation, which makes sense to me. Certainly, at least, to the extent of being a general tendency, that usually/more often than not differentiates tube and solid state designs.

I think that some of those who have responded may be losing sight of the fact that distortion does not occur when there is no signal to be distorted. In the case of a design that utilizes relatively large amounts of feedback, when Ralph refers to "the noise floor becoming that of harmonic and inharmonic low level distortions," that "noise floor" will not be heard when no signal is present, even if one's ear is placed against the speaker. Yet when signal is present, Ralph's point that it can mask low level detail to a greater degree than a small amount of hiss can mask low level detail (even if the hiss is great enough to be audible) certainly seems to me to be plausible.

Best regards,
-- Al