Thiel replacements


I'm thinking about purchasing replacements for my Thiel 3.5s. For some reason, I can't get the speakers to disappear. I get a center image, whether its vocals or guitar, but that's about where the soundstage ends. All other instruments appear to be coming directly from the speakers. It really stinks! Is this just a characteristic of Thiel speakers? I don't see how it could be, though, as many people think very highly of them.

I don't think the room is the problem, but here are the dimensions. They are along the short wall. The room is 13' X 19', the speakers are 8' apart, I sit 9' from them, and they are about 5' from the front wall. The left speaker basically has no side wall next to it, as it's next to a large opening which connects the living room to the dining room. The right speaker is about 3' from the side wall. They are currently slightly toed in, which seems to be the best. I have tried them at all different severities of toe.

Speaker polarities are correct, unless of course there is a problem inside one of the speakers themselves, but I doubt it. The EQ box had just been gone over by Thiel, so it should be ok.

My components are: Jolida jd100 cd player, Anthem Pre1L preamp, Classe CA-200 amplifier, and all cables are Jon Risch designs which utilizing Belden coaxial cable. The ICs are twisted pairs and the speaker wires are cross connected coaxial cables.

I don't know if I should consider new speakers, spend several more weeks moving these around the room, or ?????? Any suggestions would be great, whether they are tweaks or whatever. I look forward to hearing what the pros have to say! Hopefully it will help my system perform the way it should.

Thanks,
kevin
ketchup

Showing 3 responses by basement

Quick 2 cents, this may help. Thiel's are very "revealing" speakers- that is their strenght. With most average electronics most people would find them rather forward and flat sounding, but if you want a speaker that is capable of revealing detail in certain electronics, that is where the thiel comes in. Above is right, they are very sensitive to speaker cable, but I would look at it as capable of getting the best out of certain speaker cables that other speakers have a harder time with. Same with amps.
The theils, especailly are not the wide, smooth soundstage kings, but rather are very good at revealing components that are.
Sorry if this is too long winded, and I should note that I am not the Thiel expert, I have experienced exactly what you are describing with those speakers. Also should note when I fiddled, listening position was height sensitive, that made a big difference.
I like it when a post brings out a real expert on a particular subject. Thanks Exertfluffer.
My room is very similar to yours. It is my living room and it is about 11x20 with an opening about 5x6 on the right side, about 3' from the front, and a couch on the opposite side wall. I also went through similar pains in that I moved in and made changes to my equipment at the same time.
I am using vandersteens which are really opposite thiels as far as their strengths and weaknesses, but I soon found out that I had to accept that my listening room going to have a lot of comprimises. My speakers are way off center toward the right side, and each one has a different toe-in, which I play with occasionally to depending, But what I am really saying is that it took me a while to get used to my new room before I could get used to what I was hearing. I had to get used to some comprimises in what I could achieve before I could actually make it sound good (i.e. sacrifising width for a more balanced, or blended sound, and sacrifising some of the balanced presentation to let each speaker sound better).
Perhaps we could use some tips? Some thoughts or ideas on how do deal with a room such as this would be really helpful.
The system was going to be in the room I spend the most time in, with me, that was first. When it came to where I was going to put my furniture and put my system, I ended up with what I have now because I realized that the system would need a certian amount of space to function properly and function in a way that I could listen to it while I lived in my living room, so I basically started by laying out my living room around my stereo because it would be my main source, but also taking into account I wanted to be comfortable with the whole room.
The main thing I take into account is that no matter where the listening chair is, the speakers and the room must interact with each other, so I mostly concentrate on the interaction between the speakers and the room. Because there is a big 'hole' in one side of the room, the speakers to not behave the same on the two sides (nor the room). I try to adjust each speaker so that it interacts with the room at its best, while at the same time adjusting for the interaction of both. This leaves me with a main listening seat that is not perfectly center, and not perfectly balanced between the speakers.
My listing recliner is to the left of the toe in of both speakers, and closer to the left speaker than the right. Since I haven't been able to get a balanced, centered presentation without gross negative overreactions from placement, I abandoned that idea temporarally, so I could just get the speakers and the room working better. I pretty much stopped there.
I am aware and of the opinion that a speaker will sound its best according to how it reacts to its placement in the room, and both the size of the room and the sound pressure, as well as other sources (the other speaker or a sub) interacting as well. I am also aware that there is always a "sweet spot" where these aspects come together at a certain place. I have really abandoned the sweet spot and adjusted for the former to make my listening position better.
While I am satisfied for now, I know that there is possibly, problably, more I could do, and that there are others more experienced and knowledgable than I, so my interest is peaked.
I agree that before ketchup replaces the theils, it would be better to finish or concentrate on the room and the speaker placement, since that is so important to getting the most out of any speaker, and since the theils are so revealing, that would evan make dealing with the room that much better. Since my room is so similar, that makes me interested as well, not to mentions how many other similar situations exist and what we could all learn.