Thiel 3.7 vs Wilson Sasha

Great post!!! These are two of my favorite brands and I like to see them compared but I do not see comparisons much because of the price difference.

It is nice to see a post like this. You may take some flack because the systems were not the same... But it is very hard to hear both back to back even it the dealer has both on the floor because of the size weight of these speakers.

My Wilsons experience:
I have heard the Wilson Duette in the same room same system back to back just a few minutes apart from the 3.7s. It was no contest the 3.7s fit my taste better in all aspects. Sounds like a dumb demo but hey the duette is $14,200 (in red) and the 3.7 were $12,900 (in cherry).

I have also heard the Sophia 2 (Mcintosh front-end 252 etc) in several systems and head a few songs on the Sashas (all Mcintosh-front end).

My Thiel Experience:
I have demoed the 3.7 two different occasions (Musical Fidelity and Mcintosh 252). I also own a pair of Thiel CS2.4 (benchmark HDR-DAC1/Wyred 4 Sound ST-500) .

My opinion:
While I like both lines of speakers very well I would choose the 3.7s over anything short of the Sasha down. I did not spend much time with the Sasha but all your points match my feelings between the two lines in general. Sound wise I could live happily ever after with the 3.7 or Sasha. But my budget ($$$) leans more toward Sophia so I will have to see how the Sophia 3 sounds.

I think if people are sensitive to upper midrange energy they may like the Wilsons better. The midrange is NOT forward on the 3.7s but it pulls out every detail (think CLX) and could be tiresome if they listen to high SPL. I keep it pretty quiet because I like my hearing so it is not an issue for me. All in all it hard not to notice the 13 thousand is price difference.

PS. I would like to hear from anyone who has compared Magico (V2 but anything would help) to the 3.7s. I do not have a dealer and I am not willing to fly for a demo.

Actuary,

Yeah I like Thiels pretty well. I have never heard Thiels with Bryston amps. I have been rolling amps on my CS2.4 for a little while now. I think I am going to stop with Wyred 4 Sounds. Like the Thiels I find it very hard to find a reason to move on.

But if you think the Brystons are that good a match I will look into it. I still have Pass Labs on my list and may pick one up for a good used price.The CS2.4 are a touch hollower (thinner) in the mids than the 3.7 and I thought the Brystons might move the mids in the wrong direction, thoughts?

Have you heard the CS2.4? I bought them off Audiogon (from a dealer) unheard based on how well I liked 3.7s. They turned out to be a real eye opener for price per performance.

Pkoh,

Thanks for the tip on the Naim. I have a dealer that carries them and I have heard them on Magnepan 1.7 and they seemed pretty good. I might give them a go some time.

Now back on topic.

Pkoh,

I would like more detail on how the bass compared. Was the Wilson truly better or did it just have more bass quantity/output? This is a real question and I am not trying to give you a hard time. I would really like to known. My thoughts on the subject are below feel free to disagree if you heard differently...

Wilson:
I ask because looking at measurements and listing to the Sophia 2, the woofer start to fall quickly around 40hz and the port picks up the rest. The combined outputs bring the bass down to 29hz. The Watt Puppy 8 (I have not see measurements of the Sasha) had a similar approach the port picking up the bass where the woof left off.

My issues with the port picking up the bottom-end is it looses texture and detail compared to a larger woofer etc. My other issues is the port is almost always a good 5-10 db lower than the woofers output. Making for lumpy bass at the extremes and room placement complications. In order to have the port the same loudness as the woofer it would need to be very long and thin, causing cuffing. The last problem I have with a port is the sound coming from inside the box (let out through the port...) is colored on many speakers.

Thiel:
Now the Thiels use a passive radiator which has some real advantages. The 3.7s woofer also takes a dive around 40hzb but the passive radiator acts just like a driver with piston motion. The piston motion maintains detail until the radiator drops off at 30hz. Also the output of the passive radiator is tuned to the same loudness as the driver (tensioning the surround and box volume used for tuning) and the speaker measures flat till 31hz with no boundary reinforcement. The last but most important advantage of a radiator is it helps block the internal noise of the box and does not create port noise.

So again my question, is the Sasha bass better or just more prominet? I question the 20hz spec honestly. I know many people would/will say the room will add bass down low... but it just muds it up for me.

Now with all that being said I really like the bass on both speakers but I heard them at different dealers with a large amount of time between auditions. But I think the radiator is great and I am at loss as to why more bands don't use them. They are a good trade off between a sealed box and ports.

Thoughs?

Actuary616 and Jtein:

Congratulations on your new systems! I think you both did it right by making a short list and listening for yourself. Once your at this level in the game personal preference plays a big part.

Bvdiman

Your comments are interesting. I agree with you on the Sasha for sure but I did not find the 3.7 thin. Does your taste lean toward the warm side?

I think the best thing about both the Sasha and 3.7s that set them apart from other brands is there transients or in the words of Dave Wilson "dynamic contrast". They are both quick and detailed and fun to listen too while staying accurate.

I do feel that the Sasha (Wilsons in general) are voiced more by ear than Thiels speakers. Jim always stated he wanted total accuracy while Dave Wilson states he wants both accuracy and beauty. I feel that both these speakers represent want there designer was shooting for.

can you give me any comments on how the 3.7 compare to the Magico line. I see you have owned Both the mini and V3.

Bvdiman,

Thanks a lot for the detialed responce, it is exactly what I was looking for. Sounds like the Magico are pretty nice too. I can see why you thought the 3.7 were not organic.

I find them very music dependant and hit or miss based on music choise. Not the speakers fault but actually a sign of transparency.

In all the 3.7 are the only speaker of the three in my price range but I would try a different brand if I could fine a good deal on the used market. The only real turn off of Magicos for me is the lack of dispersion (I have not heard them) in the highs. I like a wide sweet spot because my wife joins me from time to time. I also think the sound stage is better with less toe in and narrow dispersion means they will need some toe in.

Thanks again and enjoy the music.

Egrady,

"Can the 3.7 resolve low level detail as well as the electrostatic like Wilson"

In short yes. The 3.7s are one of the most resolving box speakers I have ever heard. But I have never heard a box speaker get more details in the mids than a good electrostatic (wilsons are far from it too...). I also own a pair of CS2.4, while they are a good speaker the 3.7 is on another level.

I find it interesting you found the Wilson more revealing than thiel. Was it just in the highs or was it also in the mids and bass? I am not a stickler for highs and find most good speakers recreate the highs good enough for me because of my tastes I may not have noticed the CS2.4s short coming in the highs (if it exists). But I am very picky about the mids and bass. I like a LOT of midrange detail and smooth textured bass. In those two areas I feel Thiel hit a home run with the 3.7s.

Ketchup,

I do not agree with price point shopping for hi-fi... This is one market you do not always get what you pay for... I can think of at least 5, $5000 or less speakers that would out shine LOTs of $10000-$15000 speakers.

Well here is a shot list of great $5000ish speakers. I have included some "expert" reviews... if you don't want to trust my opinion. So here we go flame suit on.

Thiel C2.4 (price just raised from $4900 to $5900 last month)

"The Thiel CS2.4 is a great loudspeaker, one of the very best I've heard regardless of price. Its treble soars and its bass plummets, but all the while the CS2.4 sounds utterly neutral and musically communicative. This speaker looks gorgeous and has the earmarks of heirloom-quality craftsmanship. The CS2.4 will be at home in a tweaked-out dedicated listening room or in a finely decorated living room, and its moderate size means it won't take up much space in either."
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/thiel_cs24.htm

PSB Synchrony One

"With a proper amp, though, you'll find that these speakers are capable of remarkable performance from top to bottom with bass performance that is notable for the speakers' size and price, loudness capabilities that belong to speakers twice the size, and a midrange presentation that sets a new standard for tonal accuracy, clarity and detail."

"To my ears, the Synchrony One is the best PSB speaker yet, and it establishes a benchmark for value and performance -- something that seems synonymous with Paul Barton’s name."
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/psb_synchrony_one.htm

Magnepan 1.7

"Here we have a $1995 speaker whose staging, focus, and low-level resolution are not just much better than that of its excellent predecessor but downright superb by any standard short of a CLX or an M5, with detailing in bass choirs that was so good it reminded me of the Maggie 1-Us (which had the most lifelike detail in the mid-to-upper bass I've ever heard). " Jonathan Valin
http://www.avguide.com/blog/magnepan-mg-17-unqualified-triumph

Magnepan 3.6

No review needed hundreds of owners here alone...

For the last speakers I was actually thinking of Dynaudio's S5.4 but they are a good bit more than I thought... But the list of brands that make good budget speakers goes on and I am sure someone could add to my list with Gallo, Usher, Revel, Dynaudio, and countless other speakers I will never hear...

Some speakers in the $10,000-$15000 that I demoed at length that did not make the cut.

Focal 1037s $1100ish (bad integration, tweeter oddities, bass VERY room depentant, but had a very clear midrange)

B&W 802D (moments of glory, but odd bass anomalies, very poor dynamic contrasts, colored as a whole, I did like them at one time though).

Klipsch P-38F $12000 (wheres the music?, each driver was great but sounded separated in space, too much bass in room I heard them, not for me but I heard them in the same room as the Magnepan 20.1 so it was not a fair fight)

Wilson Audio Duettes $14000ish (Poor detail retrieval for $14000 and only ok in general, uneven bass in a very good room, some resonance in the kick drum+ range possibly caused by port noise). I realize there is some adjustability to these but I did not take the time, YMMV.

I am sure many of you have speakers/brands you love to hate and great brands that don't get press... and there are lots of speakers that fall into no man's land of good but not great.

Musictime,

All of our choices are more personal at this stage in the game than anything. I demoed the Sophia 3 and Thiel 3.7 in the same room same system yesterday for about two hours.... I pretty much feel the same way as the original poster but my review would be even less kind to the Wilsons.

Maybe I will start a new thread and go into the detail. I am pretty worn-out from traveling (work related) at the moment though.

Musictime,

I wrote you up a review of my demo but it ended up being three pages long and I could not post it as a new thread....

I e-mail it to you instead. If anyone else wants to read my BS about the Sophia 3 vs 3.7, just send me an e-mail, and I will forward it your way.

Musictime,

Thanks for the kind words about my review. I was not sure how people would react because of the strong stance I took, and rather harsh comments I made, but they were from the heart and how I really felt.

I was not ready for the number of e-mails I received about the quasi review (30+) and it has become rather hard to keep track of what conversation I am having with whom. I did just read through my review for the first time and it had a ton of typos, so maybe I will fix all the spelling/typing errors and post it latter.