The Science of Cables

I tried the Schroeder Method. Worked so good I raced out and bought some more Y-connectors. We are now getting unimaginably fantastic results running the Miller Method: Connect one Y-connector to the source, then connect one Y-connector to each channel. Then connect one Y-connector to each of those. Now instead of two you have eight interconnects. The improvement is exponential!

Of course you may wonder: How is this any different than running several insulated strands within one interconnect? Wouldn't that be the same, only better due to eliminating all the crappy signal degrading Y-connectors? Wouldn't IC makers figure this out? Wouldn't they all be racing to put as many conductors in parallel as they could? How would using more conductors possibly be harmful? And if it is then why on Earth would I want to run that risk?

To which I answer: take your pesky questions elsewhere! We got an off the rails thread to keep going here! So shoo! Away with you!

clearthink

Audioquest is not a bad...cable but it is not an exceptional... cable either.  just look at how many different cables this company ...distributes they make dozens...what they are doing is making cables of different "flavors" because none of them are truly neutral, accurate, and faithful. This allows every user, dealer, audiophile to proclaim for himself that one or more of them are the "best" when in fact each of them has their own shortcomings because the company does not know how to make a truly accurate cable.

Yes all too true. And neither does anyone else. Some here and there though do get a whole lot closer.

Audioquest Dragon speaker cable was actually my first high end wire. Way back then it was near impossible getting anything to audition so I bought it used. Then within a year I got my ears opened by a dealer who was way ahead of the curve in recognizing the importance of wire. There really is no substitute for trying lots of different components in your own system in your own home. 

Stewart was at the time in the process of moving from the east to the west coast. He stayed with me for two weeks while looking for a home out here. He was traveling in his van chock full of inventory. Stewart was an incredibly rare thing in a dealer- a guy who just loved audio, had already earned enough to not have to make any money, who basically was only doing this to be able to fly all over the world listening and having the best of everything. Two full weeks of bringing his treasure trove in, trying everything out, keeping only the best. Well, that I could afford. But to show the value of a really good dealer, when we were done my system not only sounded massively better than before (my wife literally- literally!- was startled out of the chair) but.... I had money left over. That's right. Everything I replaced was sold for MORE than what his much better stuff cost.

The problem is exactly what clearthink said- only not just AudioQuest but very nearly all of them, and including a lot of what even the good ones make, its more flavors than across the board nutrition.

There is no science. Not really. There is only guys just like us, only hopefully with better ideas and (again, hopefully) ears, trying out everything they can think of guess at and imagine to make something just a little bit better. Which almost always its different, but not necessarily better. Which cannot even be determined any way other than by listening. Which no one can do, there's simply too many. So we wind up using what are in effect band-aids, never really finding the answer just happy if one covers up the mistakes of the other.

This of course suits the industry just fine.

jrpnde says:

I am confused....There are plenty of folks on these these forums that are VERY knowledgeable about electronics, electricity, and circuits. There is an extremely wide price between the "junk" cables that came with a product and the super, extremely expensive ones that can be had.

I ask this question......how sophisticated must a system be to truly hear the difference in sound from a modestly priced cable and the super expensive ones? Is it just a matter of money?

No it is not just a matter of money. And it doesn't take a very sophisticated system. What it does sometimes take is some fairly sophisticated hearing or listening skills.

Its actually 50 years, half a century, since Julian Hirsch misled a generation with his "wire don't matter" mantra at Stereo Review. Heck, I bet most of the people today who doubt if wire matters don't even have any idea how their skepticism can be traced back to Julian Hirsch.

What's amazing about this is how long its been since his view has been out of date. Sure back in 1970 he could say prove it and nobody had hardly anything that sounded very much different than anything else. By 2000 though it was pretty damn obvious you can do an awful lot better than stock power cords, patch cords, and lamp cords. 

The situation today, and which has been the case for many years now, is you can actually totally justify spending more money on speaker cables, interconnects, and power cords than on all your other equipment put together. Read that again. Every word. Because its true.

Here's how I know. Not think. Know. As in been there, done that.

First time was the now retired Stewart Marcantoni had me listen to this one system he put together at Weekend Environments. Sounded fantastic! We played a bunch of stuff, all amazing, and then he told me: the wire and power conditioner in this system cost TWICE AS MUCH as the speakers, CD player, and amps. TWICE! 

I'm not saying spend twice as much on cables. I'm saying it has been PROVEN that if you do so it is not a waste. Not at all.

But that was a pretty high end system. What about normal folks?

My father in law, although worth millions was the kind of guy who could never see spending hardly anything on a stereo. So when his died he gave me a budget of only $1200 for the whole thing. With that $1200 budget I got him a CD changer, integrated amp, bookshelf speakers, power cords, interconnect, speaker cable, and cones. Fully tweaked out and budgeted it all came in just under $1200. 

Putting it all together at my place to burn in and make sure it all sounds good before delivery I was really surprised at how darn good it sounded. I mean if you are thoughtful and plan it out and don't forget details like power cords and cones. Tweaks beat components. Every. Single. Time.

But then I thought, like the OP, what would happen if..... so I took one of the $500 interconnects from my system and... damn! Totally transformed that little budget stereo! What if I try this $600 power cord? Boom! Same thing! $500 speaker cable? Now well over twice as much money in cables as components and I could hardly believe how good this thing sounded.

People will dispute. People will argue. These will all be people who have never done this. I have actually done it. It works. Its true. And this was years ago, and the developments since have only made it even more true.

Quality cables are essential to every system regardless of budget. They call it a system for a reason. Everything matters.

the perhaps aptly named sleepwalker raises this criticism:

 Tell us you can’t hear the difference between a lousy Walmart 24 AWG “speaker” cable and a decent audiophile 12 AWG speaker cable, or a lousy 50 cent dollar store interconnect with 1000 pF per foot capacitance between your preamp and amp, compared to an audiophile cable with 12pF per foot capacitance? Or is it “all good” as long as you shake the magic chicken’s foot at it?

The entire thrust of my argument is that its not what you measure but what you hear that counts. So its just beyond goofy trying to say I can't hear a difference. I mean, you miss that one, you are lost. As in wrong planet. Lost. 

But the quote of mine sleepwalker takes issue with is saying electrical measurements are "irrelevant". On that one word I will say, maybe "not decisive" would have been better. Or technically better still, "occasionally helpful but hardly sufficient". But we don't write purely for technical accuracy. We award points for style too. Either way, doesn't change the fact that the only useful means we have of judging audiophile cable performance is by listening. Its simply beyond question. We buy these things to listen to music. Not to hang on the wall beside a printout from a scope. 

We stand by irrelevant.

And not to say Truth is a democracy, but we are heartened to see a clear preponderance of comments in support of our position.

How you "shake" your "magic chicken's foot" sleepwalker you can keep to yourself. TMI. 

Physical measurements are great for determining how much voltage and current a line can safely carry, what insulation is required for what voltage, etc. That's it.

Audio is not about any of that. Audio is about how it sounds. Electrical measurements are totally irrelevant. Sorry, but they are. This is probably because of our present poor understanding of exactly what it is that makes something sound good.

Stop and actually think about this one for a minute. When we know how to make something, when the science is worked out fully, then everyone would know it. They would all be doing the same, or pretty much the same. Seen any airplanes with the flat part of the wing on top? Not likely! Because we understand the science and physics of air flow. 

But now notice, even in aircraft where we understand really well what is going on, hence all airplane wings look the same, this does not hold true at the sharp end of development. Stealth and hypersonic aircraft wings do look a little different. Because these delve into areas where we are still figuring out and trying to understand. Or they are special applications, with their own specialized performance criteria.

Still figuring out and trying to understand? Highly specialized performance criteria? That is the whole entire subject of high end audio! Nobody knows why one thing sounds better than another! Nobody! Hardly anyone even agrees on what better sound sounds like!

These are simply the facts. We don't agree if sealed, ported, transmission line, dipole, electrostatic, Bose or Wilson sounds better. We don't agree on gold, silver, rhodium, copper, or layers of some or all or mixes of unobtainium being best for wire. Or on the dielectric, or even, once we make the darn things, where they should go: On the floor? Or elevated above it??? You think anyone's gonna stand any chance using measurements or design to select speaker cable?
That's a good one. Tell me another one. I'm stuck in LA waiting for a flight. I could use a good laugh.