Well,
I ordered the table. Musicians Friend has the SL1210MK2 on sale for $399 shipped plus a $35 rebate. Not bad for $365 brand new in box. I just need a cart at this point.
Is the Sumiko headshell a must have for the carts that I mentioned? |
A few questions. What has to be done to run a Denon DL 110, 160 or 103? Is the tonearm up to the task or does the headshell need to be replaced with a Sumiko for the extra weight?
Same for the Sure.
I've seen the Shure 97 for about $60 online. If the Denon's are in a different league they are not that much more.
I saw that the Audio Technica 440 was going for about $85 a few months ago and now they are about $200. What is the deal? Will prices come back down? |
I just picked up an AT 440 MLa from an Audiogon member. I'll have to give it a try. So the AT 440 is bright, doesn't kind of defeat the purpose of analog? |
The AT 440 MLa is listed as out of stock on the lpgear website.
The Denon Dl-110 and 160 with a Sumiko headshell seem to be the way to go. What about the DL 103 that is available for about $150. Is the 110 or 160 superior? |
Drubin,
Probably not. But, I had a VPI Scout and Dynavector 20x cart (high output) and was not blown away by it. It was a toss up between that and my CD player so I sold the VPI. At this price point, I don't mind playing around. I'll let you know when I get it set up next week (1200 + AT 440). |
If you are looking for a comparison, I like the Technics more than my old VPI Scout/JWM9/Dynavector 20x. Here is why:
Out of the box, the Technics feels like it in a thoroughly engineered product. The VPI, with its separate motor assembly (which has a pretty cheap feeling motor inside of a pretty case), rubber belt and pointy feet felt more like soemthing that was built in a garage.
Setting up the VPI was just a pain (and I am a former engineer and very mechanically and electronically competent). The tonearm was really heavy and balanced on the top of a pin, it never felt right. Trying to set the tracking force was a nightmare. It had a set screw and the weight just slid (poorly). You could never seem to hit the right spot. To set the balance, quote, "get a coffee stir and put on top of the tonearm. Make sure it is level." They could have at least given you a stir. I had to go to work the next day and get a stir. The tracking force had to be set with a guage that I had to order. It took a few weeks until I could actually set it up at all. The VTA was adjustable, but the guide never said how to set it. To level the table was also painful. I just kept setting the feet, over and over until it was straight in all directions. Then there is the speed. How do you know when you are at 33.3 rpm? You don't. You just move the belt back and forth on a spindle and guess. I played a CD that was the same as a record and the TT was way off. Kind of hard to tell if you have not been doing this for years. Oh yea, I forgot about the anti skate. You twist the tonearm wires. How do you know when it is right? You can only go in certain incraments so that you can plug the wire back in. Finally, do you like dust all over your TT? You had better because the VPI has no cover. You want a cover for your $1600 table. Plan on spending as much as the entire Technics table for one. And dusting the TT every time you want to use it is no fun at all. It made me not want to use it and in fact I rarely used it and eventually sold the table, cart and 16.5 cleaning machine.
Now the Technics SL 1210 MK2. It is just so well engineered. Solid as a rock. You unpack it. set the voltage, pop on the plinth and a nice thick rubber mat. OK, that part is done. How about setting up the tonearm? I had my trusty force guage ready. Hmm. OK, you mount the cart on the headshhell, which is easily removeable without any tools. Thankfully the wires on the headshell are thicker than a human hair and have nice sturdy feeling ends that easily slide onto the cart with a fingernail. Pop the headshell on a plastic alignment guage, line up the cart and tighten down. Then put the headshell back on the arm. Counterweight. Just put in on the back of the arm. Balance the arm by screwing the weight. No 30 minutes of fighting with the counterweight. Then the force. Lest see. 1.4 g. Set the scale at zero and then dial in 1.4 g by moving the counterweight and dial at the same time. About 10 seconds to do. How about antiscate? Ready to twist wires and guess? Nope, just set the dial the same amount as the tracking force.
VTA. Hmm. This is a tough one. Measure the height of the cartirdge, look it up on a chart. You set it by flicking a lever to unlock, dial it in and then flick the lever to lock. Now you are done. It looks like you can set it on the fly is you want.
Here is the part that is really nice. My VPI had a soundstage that was always between the speakers. Maybe due to improper VTA. I could never seem to get it "perfect." The Technics is set up in 1/2 hour and it is right. The soundstage is wider than the speakers and has a nice weightly bass. Before eveyone flames me for being technically illiterate, I am a former engineer and have significant electrical and mechanical skills and have been fabricating for 20+ years.
On to using the Technics. It gets up to speed instantly. Hit a button and it is in 45 to clean the record. Then back to 33 to play. Hit a little button and a light pops up (I love this. I had to use a separate light for my VPI). Is the speed set right? Of course, just look at the strobe on the left side. Perfect 33. So you heard that Rega's have PRAT that may due to being 1% fast. OK, just use the slider and dial in 1% fast (while the record is playing). The arm lift mechanism is really smooth and not clunky at all like the VPI's. After dropping the tonearm on the record, feel free to put the dust cover down, the needle will not skip.
The sound is rolled off (I am using an Audio Technica 440) and has a nice heavy bass, just like vinyl is supposed to sound.
Anyone considering getting into Vinyl, try the Technics. If you don't like it, you can get almost your full purchase price back on ebay. I just wish that it was a fully automatic table, but re-engineering this table would ruin it as the price would rise. I'm sure that there is a home version (I think the 1300).
A friend has a Project that he gave up on and went for a Technicks linear traking table. He has the really heavy all aluminum model (DL10 or something like that). The audiophile tables feel like under-engineered sports cars that have constant annoyances. The Technics feels like a Lexus. Solid and just starts up and works - very well.
I am using very respectable equipment with the Technics (B&W N801's, Bryston monoblocks, Musical Fidelity A308CR preamp). The Technics is not out of place or outclassed at all. It just sends a beautiful signal to the speakers (so far). After I spend a few months with it I will form a more critical opinion, but I regret the VPI and and very happy with this purchase. For under $500, if I barely ever use it it is worth it, especially sice it will not be collectng dust because Technics has the decency to include a dust cover!
A quick question. I friend lent me a Micro LC80W cartridge. Has anyone used this cart on a Technics? It is a Moving Coil. Do I need a Sumiko headshell? The cart actually feels pretty heavy and may need the counterweight that is supplied with the Technics table. |
Sharpe,
The JWM9 is a different arm. Fine adjustment on the balance is difficult as the weigth slides along the arm instead of screwing.
I am not claiming that the Technics is the end all in TT's, but playing music is a breeze. With the VPI, the ritual of changing the record was difficult. The screw down clamp annoyed me and the arm wobbles like crazy (which does not make you feel secure with a $600 cart on the end). I played several records on the Technics last night and it was as I remembered growing up. Because the table starts and stops in an instant, you can change records quickly. Just give it a quick wipe and, put the arm down and close the lid. I really hated not having a dust cover on the VPI.
Most importantly, it sounds like vinyl. Nice detail and a laid back sound. I kept playing records until my wife came downstairs to compalin about the time. |
Sharpe,
Maybe that is the bottom line. The Technics is so easy to use and so easy to change records that I don't mind going through several records at a time. The VPI took too much effort to use with the wobbly arm, wierd rubber belt and clamp.
As far as a rolled off top end, that is what I expect from vinyl, so it is not a problem. It sounds analog (like the VPI which had no dust cover) |
I have been listening to the Technics again tonight. I really cannot say that the VPI did any better soundwise. If anything, the Technics has a wider image (different cartridges, but I was using a more expensive cart on the VPI) and keeps me putting more discs on.
I went from my music server and of course the difference is big. The music just has more resolution and body to it. I'm really glad that I didn't give up on vinyl and went for the SL1210. It should have been my first stop. |
You'll notice the Audiogon analog Big Guns never get involved in these Technics discussion threads...
I wish they would, but I don't read anything into it. Likely they have not given a serious audition to the Technics. Be careful what you wish for. This thread has 80 replies and good information is flowing. Go read some threads on high end gear. Most fall apart about half way through and just turn into an argument where each side needs to show the other how superior they are (which offers little information on the equipment). I'm pretty sure that the Big Guns would explain that you are not hearing what you think that you are hearing, the Technics is junk because it is a "DJ table" (without any other explanation or technical info) and that you will not hear a decent table until you spend "at least $3000 or more" (and that is from a thread that I read before buying mine). |
The Musical Fidelity A308 Preamp lists the following for the phono section:
Input for 1v RMS output:
2.5 mV MM
350 uV MC
Input impedence 47K Ohm
Overload margin 31 db |
I have a question on compliance. Because the Technics arm needs a high compliance cart, what works well?
Is there a range of compliance (in 10-6cm/dyne) that works with the Technics headshell?
What range of compliance (in 10-6cm/dyne) that works with the Sumiko headshell?
The AT440 is rated at 10 x 10-6 dynamic and 40 x 10-6 static and works well with the Technics Headshell.
Is a lower number a lower compliance (meaning a heavier arm is needed)? |
Maril,
Can the Shelter be used without the flud damper and other mods or will it not be worth it (it is a pricy cart)?
I have the Auxilary weight that came with the Technics table. I also have teh weight that goes on the counterweight (I assume that it is needed here).
The other high value for the money cart is the Denon 103. Will it work well without the other mods? At about $150 it is pretty cheap.
|
I just received a Denon DL160 and Sumiko Headshell. This is a fine combination. It balanced without the counterweight. The Denon has plenty of gain with my MM stage, no need to go to MC.
Very dynamic cart and detailed. I like it so far. |
Cytocycle,
So I take it that the fluid damper and arm rewire are a really good idea if I go with the Shelter.
I put an older Micro MC 80 Cart on and it is a pretty big junp in performance, even with the factory wires and no damper. |
I'm down to the Shelter 501, the Audio Technica OC9 and the Denon 160. Big price difference between the three.
I am using a borrowed Benz LC80 and want to at lease equal its performance. It has a low output (0.09 mv) and I have to really turn up the volume.
I decided to skip the Denon 103 because I don't want to have problems with impedence matching, step ups, etc.
My preamp is a Musical Fidelity A308CR with 47K Ohm input and it has MC capability.
Anything that I need to know here? |
I have a question about the Sumiko Headshell that many have said to get. Is the HS12 the one to get for this table? |
Jan,
I look forward to it. This is really a nice cart, especially for the price. I was worried about its output because I used to have a Dynavector 20X and I really had to turn up the volume. The Denon is just right.
Here is a review of the fluid damper that is linked to the KAB site:
http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm
I am not rushing out to buy one just yet. |
