A question I have, about this particular Table.
I understand some like Baerwald Null Geometry, and some claim Stevenson Null might be as good, or another preference.
So, I ask this?
Knowing Yip at MintLP, how precise he is, with getting every little thing right with his Protractor per user's Table, Arm Spindle-Pivot Distance, Spindle Diameter, etc, would Yip possibly suggest a different, specific set of Null Points best suited for such a Table?
I would assume it would not be beyond Yip to provide special Null Points to accomodate a particular Arm?
Mark |
TVAD, I agree with both you, and Siniy as well. Both of you bring good points to the table here.
As Siniy says, akin to a Joe Pesci line from Good Fellas "You worry too much". Which might have a bit of truth, as Curio might find complete happiness without spending a dime, going any further with Alignment. He might get very good performance, never hear any anomalies, and live happily ever after.
I agree with you Tvad, that it isn't particularly tracking, or even inner groove distortion. The end user may never really notice, or have issues with such, even with a simple supplied overhang gauge.
It is the issue of extrating the very best performance from any given cartridge, and I'll agree, the Mintlp protractor will be pretty hard to beat in this regard.
As some tell me, there really isn't necessarily, a "wrong geometry" per se, but as many note, one particular Null Geometry might be better liked, versus another.
That's what I perhaps threw this on the table, if Yip would do a custom Null geometry per manufacturer's specs, rather than Baerrwald for every instance-Arm?
Mark |
Perhaps nobody on this forum yet has used a Mintlp Tractor on a Technics 1200-1210, but I have used my Mintlp spec'd at 211mm arc on my Denon DP-2550, with new Acrylic Armboard, and retrofitted my mint 11 year old AQ PT-8 Arm.
My machinist buddy Andy had to make-machine a "locating Pin, that could be installed into the AQ Arm Base (A custom Arm base was made on my HW-19) This locating Pin-Rod, which was machined to a sharp pencil point, was then installed into the Arm-Base at a level height to Spindle, which is highly critical, so an exacting, accurate measurement could be insured on the S-P distance of exactly 211mm +-.001"! Yes, Andy's that good.
Thus, my Mintlp Tractor, at 211mm woks for both my Denon, and VPI Tables. This I feel is the very most important parameter, insuring that indeed, you are giving Yip exact measurements for your S-P Spec. Just "trusting" what VPI, Technics, or any other manufacturer for that matter "claims" thier S-P distance is might not be enough. If, the Distance is possibly off my 1mm, or 2, then you are back to square one, and you might not be getting any better alignment than the cheapo plastic jig that some provide with thier Tables.
I had found on both Tables, that the Turntable Basics Mirror Protractor was at least off by +- .500mm-1mm. The sound improvements on my HW-19 prooved the Mintlp did do a better job, and the sound did improve.
As a crazy experiment, just for the hell of it, I pulled out a bought new Benz Ruby 3, from it's Box, and mounted on the Denon Table, set up with the Mintlp Tractor, and I was very impressed at the fine performance, and sonics this old Turntable was giving me. I can only think of one catchy phrase to describe the sound, and that is "PRAT".
Still, the question I persist in asking, will Baerwald null provide a suitable set-up, versus another null on these technics, and I would assume yip would not have any problems slightly skewing the null points to a slightly different measurement to accomodate some of these japan made arms.
Has anybody asked this of Yip? Or are we to assume that Baerwald will be the best for a Technics 1210? I know if I owned a Technics 1210, I might feel some comfort in knowing I did a critical alignment with the Mintlp, but might not be too happy, or confident seeing a good Cartridge sitting very cockeyed on the Headshell. Mark |
I'm sorry Tvad, if I possibly missed your comments that you have used the Mintlp for the Technics. Guess in all the "excitement", I overlooked this.
So, may I ask, not so much for my references, and knowledge, but others, here, present, and future folks, did you particularly note any oddities of how the Cartridge sits, if it is canted in Zenith with Baerwald? I suspect it might be slightly, but as others claim, this is of no importanace-signifcance of how the Cartridge "looks', the most important thing I assume, it how it sounds!? Mark |
What you've said is of course basically correct. That at only two points (at best) can a Stylus be correctly aligned to the groove with a Pivotal Tonearm.
I'd probably be correct as well, saying that a large number of us end users, that were using poorer quality tools for alignment, never even succeeded to achieve correct alignment at least at those two points. For those that actually did, when they eventually compared to a better, more accurate tool (such as the Mintlp Tractor) dare I use the word "luck"?
The question arises, then just how accurate must one be? How much error will then impart a noticeable degradation of sonics? Some say accurate alignment should be within +-.5mm. But, perhaps what if the tool istelf has its own inherit error of poor resolution, and not designed-manufactured well enough for repeatable accurate results?
Of course again correct, an end user must conclude-decide what is the worth-value of a highly accurate alignment with a well made tool. Or take the other path-philosophy that says "My Technics Plastic Jig, or a lesser protractor is good enough, and the rest must be poppycock"?
All I can say from personal experience, using a lesser, but thought to be a decent tool, the Turntable Basics Mirror Sight Line Tractor, I used this tool a number of times, and every time I used this tool, I came away with what I saw as minute error, and a uncertain interpretation of that I had precisely aligned my Cartridge-Stylus. No doubt an inherit flaw of such tools, is the repeatable accuracy of aligning the site line, to center of Tonearm Pivot.
All one is doing with such a tool, is "guessing" where the center of Arm Pivot is. An ever so small error in aiming of course equated to an error of where the Null Grids would be positioned. Not only skewing correct overhang, but zenith angle as well.
After the use of the Mintlp Tractor, for the very first time, I did not feel compelled to re-check, or have a doubt that I did finally succeed in correctly aligning my Cartridge. Versus the TB Protractor, the Mintlp Tractor did indeed show the errors, in both overhang, and zenith angle.
All here who have used the Mintlp, including myself have noted worthy sonic gains. The value of those sonic gains are again up to an end user to determine what thier value is? Mark |
Dan_ed, I feel the Alignment with Mintlp Tractor can be done in one sitting but a quite long one. I myself took about 1 hour 45 minutes before feeling confident that I'd never have to go back again. Insuring that I did indeed have exacting precise Spindle-Pivot Distance, and providing Yip with this info, I had eventually noted "absoilutely poifect" tracing of the Arc at both extremes, but this of course is only 1/2 the battle!
Then comes zenith angle adjustment, and of course, this then becomes another monkey wrench-fly in the ointment, as making any adjustments in this regard will-can skew your hard worked-on overhang. So, it's back, and forth, and I found I walked away, and came back to the Table a good 1/2 dozen times, took a break, took a deep breath, and then back again at it.
Of course there's no law that says "this is it", and of course, I'll agree with you Dan_ed, that all parameters-adjustments on a Table should be periodically checked.
Of course as has been brought up before, and Doug Deacon I believe commented about this, and that is the fine tuning of VTA, as some of you folks do like to do almost on a "per record basis".
By varying VTA, this will of course slightly alter Overhang, and possbly as well Zenith Angle to an extent. I haven't my Airy 3X to be quite so sensitive to altering VTA all the time. Mark |
Dan_ed,
Not trying to be rude at all, but why wouldn"t it (The Alignment with the Mintlp Tractor) be "done"?
The platter isn't going to move, the Arm Base-Am isn't either, and provided the Cartridge doesn't drift on the Headshell, I see no personal reason to continue to distrust myself in that I somehow was "blind" that day, and only imagined I had the Stylus perfectly tracing the Arc, and the Cantilever in perfect harmony with the Reference Null Grid's Lines.
Under those circumstances, and the fact that I haven't played with VTA since, I don't truly understand why the Alignment is "never done"?
Yes Bgpowell, there was a marked improvement I noted from doing further refinement from the TB Tractor, to the Mintlp, and again, I will say that the Mintlp was well worth the money spent.
And I as well have no affiliation, nor axes to grind with TB, or any other Protractor brand-model.
The TB Tractor is a fine bang for the buck piece of gear, and I do as well highly recommend it as a less expensive alternative. If you search the archives on the TB Tractor, you may find posts about it, and how it is mentioned how one can enhance the use of this Tractor, with Thread to aid in sighting the Arm Pivot.
I also recommend the use of good Lights, Magnifiers, Loupes, and any other tool, or crerature comfort which you can use to your advantage in trying to achieve the very best alignment you can. The time, and effort in all cases is well worth it. Mark |
Rtollert/All,
This where of course where you sort of leave me in the dust, math is not my forte. I do understand, note, and agree with the fact that many different forces are all taking place simultaneously on the Stylus-Groove Interface, and all do impart thier sonic qualities.
You are no doubt correct that incorrect anti-skate will impart incorrect geometrical alignments of the Cantilever, and in turn skew the Stylus in the Groove Wall, something that is no doubt highly critical, especially with a radical line contact-micro line Stylus.
But isn't this something that should be dealt with, with anti-skate settings, rather than us end users perhaps trying to compensate by intentionally skewing our zenith angle to achieve optimum settings-results?
About the only contributions I can offer and note in my personal experiences, is that this was one important area which I feel the Mintlp Tractor very easily surpassed the abilities of the TB Tractor.
Before I set out to use my newly recieved Mintlp Tractor, I sat down for a number of minutes, Table in front of me, and checked my previous setting with the TB Tractor. All looked well in regards to alighment, both as far as overhang, and zenith angle were concerned. I used the exact same methods of using Yip's lighted magnifier, and his "Lupe" as he calls it. (Loupe)
From what I could determine from the TB Tractor, I had a perfect alignment. The Cantilever (at rest at least) was perfectly aligned, with Stylus precisely touching down within both Null Grid's little reference square.
Then I swapped out, and began with the Mintlp. Firstly, I immediately noted that my Stylus was not properly tracing the Mintlp Arc, being slightly short at arc beginning at edge of platter, and slightly long at inside travel of Arc. I estimate my errors at both ends of the Arc were +-1.5mm to 2mm.
I at first ignored these errors to then go to both Null Grids, and see what degree of errors there were with the Mintlp. The errors were slight, perhaps less than +-1mm, but they were unquestionably there. The Cantilever was as well skewed slightly crooked at Both Null Grid Lines.
The reasons I conclude for these differences, was one, that the resolution detail of the Mintlp being much finer, finally allowed me to correctly see for the first time these not before seen errors, two, the design principals of the sight line LP Tractor is a shortcoming, thus allowing a somewhat vague interpretation of accurately sighting the exact precise center of the Tonearm Pivot, even using Doug Deacon's smart suggestion of enhancing the accuracy of this tractor with a piece of fine thread to aid in pointing the Tractor.
And perhaps lastly, and this is a possibility, and one that entered my mind, how great of a degree is/was the quality control of the TB Tractor, to insure correct, exacting placement of the Sight line, the positioning of the two Null Grids, and last but not least, where the Hole was drilled for the Spindle, as any slight error for the hole placement would completely skew the hoped for accuracy?
Of course, the same concerns would hold true with any similar Protractor, that extreme measures were taken to insure a perfectly accurate geometric tool.
With all that being said, (whew!) Wouldn't then an inaccuracy with achieving both highly accurate Overhang, and Zenith Angle only compound-worsen the errors you previosuly mention? I would assume so.
Mark |
Yes, Winegasman, Ken Willis is another very good option, Ken's a super guy, and I am glad that there are other players out there to provide such as Ken does.
As you mention, the options of different Null Geometries are great to have, and lets a user experiment, and finding one that suits them best.
Ken had previously set me some PDF Files as well for download, and that was when I first recognized that an Arc Style Protractor could have advantages versus the Sight Line Type.
Everything you state is true, but I would like commenting that there are some differences between the two Designs, I'm aware of some, but cannot honestly comment about others.
As far as I know, Ken's Tractor is printed on a sheet of Plastic. This holds advantages, and disadvantages versus Yip's design. yes, the Plastic will proove more durable, less chance of breakage, as the Mintlp Tractor is indeed a sheet of real Glass, not Plastic Glass, so any cocking-canting, or rough handling of the Mintlp, or an incorrect fit on the spindle will most likely cause a disastrous breakage of the Tractor.
And here's the advantage of the mirror. The Mirror will immensely aid in reducing any parallax aiming errors, in that one is correctly sighting down the null grid. This will be advantageous for Zenith Alignment, and is one property-quality the TB Tractor possesses as well.
As for resolution of Ken's Tractors, and how it compares to the Mintlp, I cannot honestly say, having never bought one of Ken's actual final product.
I can only say, that on the Mintlp, one cannot easily see the small reference Null Tics, nor the ultra fine zenith null lines to align the Cantilever. I myself could only see them with magnifier, or Loupe, that's how fine they are. Under magnification, my Airy 3X Cantilever looked like a thick Log in the middle of a 3-deimensional two lane Road, with the ultra thin-hairlike reference lines, as well as the reflections of all lines, thus enhancing aiming abilities, and insuring one was positioned correctly in sighting both Null, and Zenith. This I know is something the K Willis Protractor lacks. Mark |
Hello Winegasman,
Zenith Angle, is the Alignment of the Cartridge so that it is parallel, or I should say plays parallel to the Groove.
Commonly, all we used to do decades ago (now I'm showing my age) is make sure the Cartridge was aligned squarely in the Headshell. Zenith Angle can only be precisely correct at two Null points on the LP.
Zenith Angle perhaps may not be so critical with a Conical Stylus, but for Elliptical, or Micro Line, Line Contact-Shibata, it is very important.
It of course goes beyond this, it is the Cantilever, and hopefully the Stylus, provided the folks at whatever factory, have done thier work, insuring that the Cantilever is straight, and that the Stylus is properly bonded to the Cantilever.
Many know that just aligning the Cartridge Body to the groove, or just squaring the Cartridge Body on the Headshell is not good enough. It is more particularly, the Cantilever itself that must be in perfect alignment-parallel with the Groove at the Null Points.
Azimuth is the angle in which the Stylus is positoned in relation to the Groove Wall (Looking from the front of a Cartridge, and this angle should be at exactly 90 degrees. In other words, the Stylus must be precisely straight up, and down, for proper, even contact of the sides of the Stylus to contact the Record Groove Walls.
As for a visual aid, this is where I feel a reflective surface, such as the TB , or Mintlp Tractor can be used to an advantage, just sitting the Stylus on the mirror, it does anhance being able to see any slight cocking of the Stylus, better than just sighting on a flat surface, or an LP. Even a small cosmetic mirror could probably be used, prvided its surface is flat. There are other methods which I understand can also be used to check Azimuth, such as a Multimeter. Mark |
