Subwoofer insight.

define integrated

Integrated means of one piece, whole. Its a fact. You could look it up. Bass is integrated when its impossible to tell there are subs, or even any speakers at all. Integrated is when the bass is so clean and clear and extended you are enveloped to the point where the walls of the room dissolve and you feel you are within a holographic acoustic space.

This is impossible to achieve with any one sub. The more subs you use the easier this becomes. With four or five subs it is trivially easy. Virtually any four subs located virtually anywhere in the room will get you there. No single sub located anywhere will. Not even two. More is better.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367

Would be very interested to hear ieales tell us all how many four and five sub setups he has tried, in order to fully evaluate his credibility on the subject.

Spacial reproduction has nothing to do with REL, or any particular sub for that matter. Whoever REL has hired for marketing isn't being paid enough. Anyone capable of that degree of mind control ought to be working for CIA or the Fed, its just astounding. Fully expect any day now to be reading REL has cured the common cold, brought peace to the mideast, eliminated dandruff and who knows maybe even cancer. Its just nuts.

Truth is any 4 subs spaced asymmetrically around the room will get you there. My system has 2 sealed, 2 ported, and one powered, and read the comments the bass is incredible, totally integrated, and 3D. This 5 subs completely disappear, the bass is as beautifully imaged as all the rest, and this has been the case no matter where they are moved ever since going from one to 4, and finally 5.

Sorry. Not saying REL doesn't make a good sub. Simply saying REL doesn't make a good enough sub for one to be better than 4. No one does. You want good bass, you get 4. Its that simple.

I don’t listen to any music that has bass any where near 20hz, let alone below 20hz.

These low frequencies are inherent in the acoustic resonance of large spaces. Therefore present in all music that is well recorded in a large space. Its not "music" in the sense of any particular instrument playing it. Although this is definitely the case with a lot of music. But it is also there in a surprisingly large number of recordings of all kinds of music.

In other words its not that its not in the music you're listening to. Rest assured it is. Its just that your system is unable to reproduce it. If it were, you would experience it. Specifically, you would experience it as a heightened sense of envelopment, of being in the recording space, as opposed to merely being in your room. No doubt about it. Read the comments.
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367

Ignore everything millercarbon says.

Unless you want your system to sound really, really, crazy good.

One of those posts that sounds really technical and plausible... only it just isn’t so. There’s more going on than is dreamt of in your simple techno world, elliott.

In the real world all these extra circuits and wires you need, they all diminish the signal to some extent. Its just a fact. Nobody ever made the perfect component that doesn’t do this and until they do simpler is better.

In the real world the more sources of low bass the better. If you want to get all technical this is one where we can go and the tech and physics are solid as can be. Each woofer creates room bass modes based on its location. The more locations the more modes. The more woofers the less output needed from each one. So the more woofers the smoother the bass. Its been researched and tested and proven. Its science.

Also happens to work in practice. To a lot of us, this means more than any number of high falutin theories. 

So when you filter bass from the stereo pair you aren’t improving you are worsening.

Keeping track, that’s two ways your idea made the system worse. There’s a third.

Money spent on this unnecessary and counterproductive crossover and amp and all is money not spent where it could actually do some good.

About the only time this might be a good idea is in the case of a very low output SET where relieving it of low bass might actually be enough of an improvement to be worth it. Except notice, no one with a SET actually does this. Why? Isn’t this the prime example of when it should be most beneficial?

Except people are drawn to SET and low output in general because they enjoy listening for the truly subtle compelling detail that carries one away with palpable presence. The very same subtle detail all your extra circuits ruins. So the one guys who according to your view really should be advocates want nothing to do with it.

Me neither. https://forum.audiogon.com/users/millercarbon

ricmci, if you wonder if more subs really is better, check this out. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367My first sub was the Talon Roc in the corner. A fine sub. But only one. One does not work very well. (Sorry, guys, but it doesn't. Can't.) Once I learned about the distributed bass array and decided to build my own the original play was to get the DBA up and then sell the Roc. Because who needs 5 subs?

So I built the 4 and removed the Roc and the DBA was awesome and was just about ready to sell the Roc when for kicks decided to try and see what it would be like with 5. Well it didn't add bass, its not about more, its about better, and 5 is a lot better. So the Roc stays. 

That's what you want. Don't worry too much about which ones. Four of just about anything will be better than one of anything. Four really good ones will be even better of course but mostly its about numbers not quality. Don't worry about placement. Placement with one is a huge headache, and nothing works anyway. Placement with two or three gets easier, because with more subs there are more modes and its easier to have them smooth out. Placement with four or five is trivially easy. Pretty much anywhere you plop them down you will hear awesome bass. 

I worry that by awesome you think I mean better than usual. No. I mean awesome. The exact word that was used three times by the last guy to come and listen. Deep, articulate, powerful, smooth, and 3D in an enveloping immersive way you have to hear to believe.

So get your two. For now. Consider it a good start.

Two is a good start. Much better than one. Or none. One thing you will learn, if you're smart enough to try, is the more the better. One sub is better than none and sometimes kinda sorta matches. Two is better still. With four you find all of a sudden not only is the bass smoother faster deeper and more articulate, but it also blends seamlessly in a way that makes all the speakers disappear along with the room as you are enveloped in the sound field. 

So yeah, go for it. Great place to start.