Dear Stringreen: ++++++ " What I did today was LISTEN. " +++++
that's all about.
+++++ " The arm is a bit high, but not absurdly so which the microsope dictated. " +++++
as Dougdeacon I posted several times that those 92 degrees could be a start number as could be 89 or 91 or whatever. 92 is not a compromise, perhaps and only by coincidence ( at random ) what you listened in a specific LP grooves can be that 92 but in the next one will be different.
LP are way imperfect items. For some time now and in some LP titles I bought two samples ( same lot. ) and I can tell you that even here both can/could sounds tiny different.
Now, what's important is to have a well proved VTA/SRA self test process that in almost any " escenario " can works and be repetable.
That test process must has a reference/standard against you will/can compare it. Best reference can be live music at near field listening because normally recording microphones are " near field " position against where we are seated in a concert hall.
IMHO could be a mistake to make comparisons against our latest set up when that set up was made with a different reference/standards. In the other side and even with the same reference we have to ask our self: what if that set up was " wrong " even that we like it and that we are accustom to?
++++ " Because the arm was raised, the VTF is now probably a bit too light, the Azimuth, is probably skewed....I'm too tired to futz with this arm.... " +++++
not only that butyou need to reset something more critical: overhang, because if not then you will have always a higher tracking distortion and all the other set up parameters could help almost for nothing because the overhang was moved with those VTA/SRA/VTF chanes.
Now, the right cartridge VTA/SRA set up depends on the audio system/room quality performance level and your self knowledge level on how live MUSIC ( near field. ) sounds.
IMHO DYNAMICS is the main live MUSIC characteristic that we " want " to even in our system ( with out success. ) and the one that contribute the more for comparisons. Main definition of that Dynamics is how we perceive both frequency extremes in a live event, any deficience in the bass range or HF range goes against dynamics. Precision, definition, accuracy, velocity and natural coloration and agresiveness are part of changes on dynamics.
I think we have to look for in our systems through analize quality performance at both frequency extremes and very especial on the bass that IMHO put the frame for the reproduced sounds in he audio system.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
I forgot: with out that " perfect " Dynamics what you are hearing is only sounds but no MUSIC, Dynamics put/contribute to other live music characteristic: rythmum.
R. |
Fear J.Carr: Yes, a few years ago testing Empire cartridges ( I think the 900/1000GT and the 1000 Z/xe. Other cartridges I can't remember. ) I found out that performs the best at " odds " high up cartridge tail/back of tonearm.
I did not tested again since then. But now that you brought here the subject I will try to do it and report my findings. I have to tell you that those VTA/SRA experiences made me to disappear the " afraid " to have that kind of " high up " VTA/SRA. I have to say too that with some today and vintage MM/MI/LOMC cartridge and when I use that high up kind of set up what we can hear from upper mid frequency range and up can be outstanding but unfortunatelly with detriment on the bass management quality performance and perhaps?? higher distortions in the former/that frequency range ( but I do not know for sure because the experience is so different/new. ).
In the other side and know that you asked: I'm just starting to include in my cartridge tests the SRA measure, I'm only waiting for the digital micro arrive.
Btw, I'm with you about try to have a table/chart with all those audiophile experiences with any cartridges where each one report on the SRA measure where we set up the VTA/SRA because was the position that we " like it " and not because it measure that 92 number that as you I still think means almost nothing and certainly is not and is far away to be the industry standard till that can be proved. That chart/table will help to cartridge manufacturers as you are to be " spot on " in the whole subject.
+++++ " For this reason, you should not choose your cartridge alignment (Baerwald, Lofgren, Stevenson, modified versions of these) without considering how close the groove extends toward the label on the LPs that you prefer, and how dynamic and complex the musical content is at the innermost groove positions. " +++++
as almost always there is no perfect alignment ( for several reasons as the one you name it. ): trade-offs always exist and something that helps a lot to lower distortions in the inner LP grooves ( other that the kind of alignment choosed. ) is to choose a cartridge high trcaking abilities and here you cartridge designers/manufacturers are the ones that have the " last word ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Sarcher30/friends: For years audiophiles talked of VTA and almost never of SRA. When making adjustments at the pivot of tonearms almost all refered that adjustments as VTA, even today many speaks as VTA.
In reality noithing " wrong " with that because at the end what we want is to understand what is happening with that kind of adjustment.
VTA and SRS are two parameters that can't " live " one with out the other: when you change VTA you change too SRA and the other way around too.
In both cases always affect the overhang that could be more critical ( as I posted here ) than changes in VTF that affect too overhang. The right overhang always lower tracking distortions and minute overhang deviations increment in a severe way the tracking distortions all over the LP surface.
IMHO if we are making changes in VTA/SRA with out checking/new set up on overhang then what we are doing is only listening higher distortions but ( even if we like what we hear. ) that achieved " sweet spot " is totally FALSE or everything but sweet spot.
The name of the game in cartridge/tonearm set up ( as in almost any audio subject ) is: accuracy, with out it we have almost " nothing " but high distortions.
Btw, if I remember we need around a change of 4mm. in VTA for one degree change on SRA.
Regards and enoy the music,
R.
PS: ++++ " me Lp's just sound "off" regardless of SRA setting. " +++++
in a decent audio system and with decent system set up that could happen only if is a bad recording/LP or comes with a different recording equalization than the RIAA. |
Dear Lewm: I posted here:
++++ " IMHO DYNAMICS is the main live MUSIC characteristic......... Precision, definition, accuracy, velocity and natural coloration and agresiveness are part of changes on dynamics........ Rythmum is another characteristic of live music. Dynamics affect it. " ++++
Main part of that dynamics is related to transient performance ( as Csontos posted. ) and time decay and part of that transient response is related to stylus-groove contact where VTA/SRA as azymuth, overhang and cartridge owns tracking habilities define it quality level.
Now, when all those cartridge/tonearm parameters are in " perfect " relationship in the set up: you just will know it even if you don't know nothing about " fundamental, harmonics or timing " but know how live music sounds in a near field experiences.
Of course that we can't even the near field live MUSIC event because in a live MUSIC event there is nothing that " filter "/degrade/modified/obstacle in between you and the MUSIC source but the AIR. Here is the magic!
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: I think ( I'm not an expert on that. ) that timing could be a not so good term/word to apply on the subject.
Harmonics are a development from the fundamental and in a home audio system the quality of the fundamental during playback depends on tyhe transient response that depends on the " right " whole cartridge set up. Different transient response gives different sound reproduction of fundamental/harmonics that change the dynamics we perceive.
Now, as I posted: when you are " there " you just know at once.
Timing is not easy to explain because there are several parameters that affect transient response not only VTA/SRA. What's important is to understand the whole subject an the importance of accurate cartridge/tonearm/LP set up.
Btw, any one of you read it ( from audiophiles or reviewers. ) something like: " SRA on the fly " instead " VTA on the fly " ( related to tonearm. )?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Csontos: +++++ " If you guys claim you will see a change in overhang from a minute SRA adjustment................then it's an inherent fault of the system because of the vinyl........... But I'm not so sure that this is relevant to playback. " +++++
I think you can't see it but you can hear it and no it's not an " inherent fault of the system ".
You posted that don not know if it's relevant during playback so you are speculating only with out any fact.
You can find out facts that can confirm or not what you are posting if you take the time o make some tests in your audio system, something like: change by 0.3 mm your today cartridge/tonearm overhang ( right at the headshell. ) and listen.
IMHO if you have a good audio system set up and good system resolution and you are aware how sounds distortions for a wrong overhang then you will hear that with that overhang 0.3 mm. changed the sound is " different ".
Example, if we change from Baerwald to Löfgreeen B set up we can hear the sound differences even that the only change on those geometry set up is only on overhang ( less than 0.5 mm. ).
Audiophiles that today use a better protractor than the one they used for cartridge/tonearm set up can attest that they can hear the differences for the better even that the change in overhang was minite against what they have it.
Almost every person that now are using the Mint LP protractor can tell you that those minute overhang changes makes a difference for the better. Accuracy always make a difference.
So, I think you have to make some tests about and then come back here to share your experiences before more speculations.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Peterayer: ++++ " If the fundamental is being obscured by the harmonics, the harmonics are arriving too early. I hear this when the arm is too low in the back. If the fundamental occurs unnaturally early, or there appears to be a minute lag before you hear the harmonics after the fundamental, then the arm is too high. " +++++
I respect your opinion as the Dougdeacon and FS but I always like to understand a subject analizing what is really happening around that subject before take other opinions as the " bible ".
I posted that maybe " timing " is not the right word but I don't have nothing against the word per se.
+++ " if the fundamental is obscured by the harmonics...." ++++
IMHO you have no precise evidence that that is what really happen because when the cartridge set up is not " perfect " and is off it then we can hear what you are saying because a wrong transient response on the bass but not because the " harmonics obscured the fundamental ".
All of us know that if we want more bright in the cartridge sound/performance we have to make a change to put higher the cartridge tail and for the bass the other way around.
Now, when we are listening our audio system fundamentals and its harmonics over the whole frequency range, of an LP score, comes one after the other in extremely fast way where you, Dougdeacon, FS, me or any one but a Mars bat can identify.
The only way to prove what you say could be to make a live tests:
using a musical instrument ( by a specific player: arp, piano, violin or whatever. ) make a live recording of one and only one note and try to identify fundamental and harmonics live against a D2D recording of that single note and with and with out a " perfect " cartridge set up.
Dynamics and what this envolve is IMHO what we have to look during a cartridge set up.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Csontos: Yes, because transiente performance is main part of Dynamics in live music and recorded one.
As you said: " poor or good " transients, that's " all ".
R. |
Dear Peterayer: ++++ " If the fundamental is being obscured by the harmonics, the harmonics are arriving too early. I hear this when the arm is too low in the back. If the fundamental occurs unnaturally early, or there appears to be a minute lag before you hear the harmonics after the fundamental, then the arm is too high. " +++++
I respect your opinion as the Dougdeacon and FS but I always like to understand a subject analizing what is really happening around that subject before take other opinions as the " bible ".
I posted that maybe " timing " is not the right word but I don't have nothing against the word per se.
+++ " if the fundamental is obscured by the harmonics...." ++++
IMHO you have no precise evidence that that is what really happen because when the cartridge set up is not " perfect " and is off it then we can hear what you are saying because a wrong transient response on the bass but not because the " harmonics obscured the fundamental ".
All of us know that if we want more bright in the cartridge sound/performance we have to make a change to put higher the cartridge tail and for the bass the other way around.
Now, when we are listening our audio system fundamentals and its harmonics over the whole frequency range, of an LP score, comes one after the other in extremely fast way where you, Dougdeacon, FS, me or any one but a Mars bat can identify.
The only way to prove what you say could be to make a live tests:
using a musical instrument ( by a specific player: arp, piano, violin or whatever. ) make a live recording of one and only one note and try to identify fundamental and harmonics live against a D2D recording of that single note and with and with out a " perfect " cartridge set up.
Dynamics and what this envolve is IMHO what we have to look during a cartridge set up.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Dougdeacon: I remember very clear when I was hosted at your place enjoying MUSIC and knowing both of you love for MUSIC and accurate ears ( my sincere regards for both of you. ).
++++ " I find this harder to hear than timing errors in fundamental vs. harmonics, but Paul finds it easier. " ++++
even that you are speculating on that " timing " I think that any one of us have their own way to to " kill the mouse ".
I'm accustom/trained to look for Dynamics at both frequency extremes looking for accuracy.
Dynamics is a word that involve almost everyhing in a reproduced sound: live or recorded, and through Dynamics evaluation in a recording transient response is critical as is critical each one overall knowledge level and audio system kind of resolution.
I think that all we know the importance to have the " precise " SRA set up.
I want to insist again thet OVERHANG is even more critical than SRA for a better quality performance. If we don't care about Overhang changes when VTA/SRA changes or VTF changes then where we leave the cartridge/tonearm accurate alignment where we invested on several protractors and choosed a specific alignment only to have a precise/accurate set up that we all always are looking for?!!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
At the end the subject is to be aware when the cartridge/tonearm overall set up is right or wrong and why.
R. |
Dear Csontos: I understand your point an opinions and I can tell you that's really tiresome to make overhang changes everytime but IMHO is necessary. Of course is up to each one of us do it or not: our each one privilege.
I really appreciated all your posts. Only under a friendly discussion we can improve our self.
regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm/Peter/all: Nothing changed on my mind about, overhang always is important. Things are that for many people overhang changes " makes " almost no diference on the quality performance and not because it does not makes a difference but because they are unaware of how the system sounds when overhang is off. It's not easy to be aware if you don't know what to look for: if you are not trained to do it.
In the other side in the very first time/moment that the cartridge stylus hit the LP grooves the overhang/VTA/SRA/VTF suffer minute changes due to the imperfect medium and maybe because of this I could said it has not " anal importance ".
This is something similar as the RIAA eq. deviation where I supported and support the critical importance on accuracy.
I say that a prety decent RIAA eq. frequency deviation of +,- 0.1 db is not enough and that a RIAA frequency deviation of: +,- 0.015 db is better and we can hear the difference IF we are trained to know what to look for during playback.
Now, all cartridge/tonearm alignment parameters are important and critical to achieve a top quality performance and we have to take care on each one if we want that the cartridge can shows us at its top performance.
In a pivoted tonearm the cartridge alignment start when we choose the the type of alignment: Baerwald, Löfgren B , Stevenson and the like.
Löfgren defined the geometry equations for a precise cartridge set up where we have mainly to know the overhang and offset angle ( between other parameters. ).
This is a sin-equanon the very first step for the cartridge can shows it at its best.
So IMHO overhang and offset angle ( for a choosed alignment geometry equations. ) must stay with out changes when other cartridge set up changes.
The different alignment equations is a trade offs " game " depending on what we want/prefer on distortions level between null points and outside null points at outer and inner LP grooves.
The alignment equations we choose optimize those distortions inside that choosed alignment in a way that any tyni deviation on the overhang and/or in offset angle cartridge set up produce a different kind of distortions to the ones choosed with different trade offs.
That we can hear or not the new distortions/trade offs does not invalidate the importance that on each alignment the name of the game is: accuracy that must stay that way always.
The target/main subject of any cartridge/tonearm geometry alignment is to do it as accurate as we can because we want optimized/lower distortions.
Tyni deviations from that " accuracy " increment in exponential way those distortions so we don't want to have this.
We all are very sensible to VTA/SRA changes and changes on Azymuth because we are aware of the differences on sound with these changes on cartridge set up and because we are accustom to do it and to hear the changes in performance when the overhang changes we are really unaware on how we detect it or how we listen it.
We have to learn trhough a training to be aware of it.
As I said, it's tiresoem/nightmare to change overhang each time we need it ( for VTA/SRA/VTF ) but we need to do it especially when we are doing cartridge comparisons or when we are fine tunning a cartridge.
Maybe some of you could remember that several times I insisted to have a proved and repetable evaluation/set up process that can permit to be aware of different kind of distortions and quality performance levels and know teh why's.
A easy way to be aware of overhang misalignment is to choose a well know LP tracks with bass range content and listen the system transiente response at different overhang values. You will be surprised on what you can hear down there those overhang changes.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear John_gordon: It's unfortunate that with a pivoted tonearm a " right " set up cartridge is almost not posible at all. All the set up parameters are interrelated and any change on one of them affect the others and we have to reset it, tiresome.
The best we can do is to choose the best trade-offs and enjoy the MUSIC and when choosed try to stay inside those trade offs all the time because when we change the null points and accepted we are changed almost all: mainly distortion levels that means new trade offs.
The analog medium is full of imperfections and we have to deal with in the best way we can. Sometimes I think is an endless enterprise.
At the end each one of us have its own targets and MUSIC sound reproduction and each one trade offs choosed are related to achieve those targets.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lewm: ++++ " then it seems to me that small errors in overhang (say +/-1.0mm, but I would have to do the geometry before settling on that margin) can be tolerated. " ++++
as I posted we have to choose our trade offs, this is each one privilege. For you 1.0mm could be tolerated and maybe for me even 1.5 mm too and as JG posted there will be an offset angle/linear ( and the like. )deviation too.
Imperfect world!
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
|
Of course that we can take the attitude to don't care about at all and only listen. Nothing wrong with that.
R. |
Dear friends: IMHO speculations and theory is something that we have to prove.
Any one of you ( with Barwald or Löfgren B today cartridge/tonearm alignment. ) can make the next test:
simple make a change ( new set up ) to either of those alignments where you just need to make a change in overhang ( offset angle is negligible. Overhang less than 0.4mm. ) and listen carefully on both set ups with very good ( in deep ) know LP tracks at three LP surface positions: between null points, outer grooves ( out side null point. ) and inner grooves ( outside null point. ) .
You will now and understand why Löfgren calculated ( 50+ years ago. ) two alignment solutions: A ( Baerwald ) and B. Of course you can read his white papers somewhere in VE.
If you can try to find out tracks with high bass content ( more easy ) and listen the transient response on both set ups looking for differences and then share with us your experiences.
Regrads and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Peterayer: Good that you made " your work " that you took your time to made those tests nad good that you heard those differences.
The only way to grow up and improve our knowledge level is through listening tests even if some of them can be cumbersome or a night mare. I think there is no other way to learn.
It's no surprise that Dynamics improved with your set up changes because Dynamics ( as a main MUSIC characteristic. ) involve almost all other live MUSIC characteristics.
The main importance on those kind of tests is to understand the differences and know from there what looking for during other kind of evaluations or item comparisons.
That kind of " exercise " is time consuming but the rewards on the self learning is worth the effort.
In the other side, when I analize technical audio subjects or read what other persons post in that regard normally what I do is to go to my system and make the set up on subject and listen because I learned that several times the analog audio theory ( technical ) is not confirmed under listening in deep sessions due to that " analog imperfect world " we are dealing with. Btw, normally I don't question other persons opinions till I experienced those opinions or when I already had the experiences.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Kiddman: Great post/contribution. Thank's for that.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
