Soundstage and explosive dynamics?

madavid0 --

I’d be looking for used and active ATC speakers, like the SCM50, 100 or, if within economical reach and space permits, the SCM150(ASL). Or, how about Volti Audio’s Rival (recently very favorably reviewed in Stereophile), or a used pair of its sibling, the all-horn Volti Audio Vittora’s (may be too expensive)? From the same company is also the Alura model, which should also be had within your budgetary requirements as a used pair.

In continuation of poster @analogluvr’s views and his fine recommendations, I’d stress: If you want to experience the full(er) envelope and macro-dynamic wallop be sure not to buy speakers too small or too inefficient; there’s really no replacement for displacement, as a saying goes, and all the named (and very efficient) Volti models should fit the bill here with their 15" bass units and powerful BMS mids compression driver, as should the larger ATC models already mentioned. Excellent micro-dynamics are especially to be found, I believe, with horn-loaded speakers, but even though the ATC’s are not horn-loaded I’m sure they’ll perform admirably in this regard as well (the 3" midrange "super" dome used here is a true powerhouse).

+1 @johnk

kosst_amojan --

Yeah.... That’s why nobody uses systems like that anymore, right? Because it just can’t be done any other way? Step into the 21st century.

Stepping into the 21st century audio-wise has little if anything to do with replicating or even approaching core traits from the horn speakers of yore, but more to do with maintaining a paradigm of much smaller, more inefficient and less space-intrusive speakers. Those may have admirable qualities in regards to dynamics relative to their specific type and inherent limitations, but as poster johnk implies will fall short of much bigger and radically more efficient, fully horn-loaded speakers here.

That few (again, few, not "nobody") are using big horn speakers today could have a variety of reasons, some of which may include the impractical nature of sheer size (more on that later), and that the virtues of this segment of speakers are simply less sought after or appreciated today. It’s also a matter of priority; horn speakers usually requires of one to re-think overall system implementation, adjust to what’s typically a different kind of sound, and make a more conscious choice in the way they’re going to inhabit ones living-/listening room space.

Later decades of "advice" (i.e.: protocol, even) concerning the fitting speaker size for ones listening space seems to dictate small speakers for small(er) rooms, and by this token big horn speakers in particular would likely not fit until you had a literal barn to house them in. Personally I find this approach to be, diplomatically put, overly schooled, but of course this way the industry can find ways to cater to and justify its small-size speaker paradigm, and numb or lull the buyers into a more or less trained behavior. In effect the range of bigger speakers, the ones who are really beginning to approach live dynamics, are pulled out of reach to most buyers - if nothing else, and in addition to the reasons mentioned earlier, simply for being too expensive. Should achieving more realistic sound be an elitist boon? That would be a rhetorical question.. Sounds a bit too much like conspiracy? Well, lets not forget we’re up against an industry where catering to space constraints (and spousal acceptance) weighs in heavily, and where cost cutting of material quantity and quality comes into play, so to speak.

So, because it just can’t be done any other way? In large terms, yes - because it can’t be done any other way. As has been stated already, you can’t cheat physics.

@inna

Question is do horns, generally speaking, produce life-like dynamics or exaggerated ’life-unlike’ dynamics ?
As I understand, 15" woofer is difficult to make fast, maybe couple of 10" - 12" would be better ?

Generally horns, not least all-horn speakers (let’s make that distinction clear, as most speakers referred to as "horns" are actually hybrids where the lower to central midrange and down is typically reproduced via direct radiating bass/mids units, hereby giving up sensitivity) will more readily approach life-like dynamics compared to direct radiating alternatives. But let us be careful not to turn things upside down; horns don’t or can’t exaggerate into "life-unlike" dynamics but only, once again, approach and even close to emulate life-like dynamics. It’s the smaller, less efficient direct radiating speakers that comes further away from even approaching this threshold, if you will. Any "exaggeration" felt as such (from horns) would be either "modes" as coloration or distortion at very high levels that would somehow give the sensation of a stressed or forced imprinting (which is very unlike typical quality horn-reproduction); or, the dynamics at play from horns are so much more in the same vein as life-like dynamics that any comparison to smaller, direct radiating speakers (which by virtue of a more general experience can easily become a false reference where dynamics are involved) would invariably be rather startling, and perhaps lead to the conclusion of horn dynamics being "exaggerated."

If we’re talking horn bass, which is rare nowadays, a 15" driver would likely sport a light diaphragm (typically paper) with a relatively small and lightweight voice coil (i.e.: no larger than 3," likely between 2-3"), have low excursion, and likely be placed in a sealed chamber. Horn bass sensitivity easily sits at 100+ dB’s, generally around 105 dB’s give or take, so imagine the power needed to feed this unit generating sound at a typical 65-85 dB listening level. We’re talking increments of watts, and at truly very high levels approaching 105-110 dB that driver would only need 1-5 watts, whereas the more general example of direct radiating speakers would need up to 100 times more power, power indeed of a magnitude where thermal impact is given at leads to compression. A horn-loaded 15" paper woofer has no problems with speed, even a non-hornloaded similar-ish unit faces no issues here.

@kosst_amojan

....because everybody wants gigantic, hulking crates for speakers, a big honky sound, and 110dB, right? This doesn’t strike me as a debate so much about dynamic range as it seems about just blaring, deafeningly loud regardless of the quality. The foundation of excellent imaging is flat response across a broad range of volume. You cannot have excellent imaging without that characteristic. Huge speakers are very well known for sonically falling apart when operated below their optimum power. Speakers with smaller drivers remain much more coherent across a much wider power range at the cost of some dynamics at the their limits. It’s a trade off and very few speakers deviate far from that truth. That’s all I’m trying to say and have acknowledged here.

It’s a misconception that owners of big horn speakers would generally and necessarily favor playing at 110 dB’s. What’s less known, if one knows horn speakers more "intimately" than mere exhibition experience, is their oftentimes excellent abilities to "come alive" at lower volumes (better so than non-horn speakers), which is an important asset for several reasons. Big size horn speakers also emulates live acoustic sound more closely than smaller direct radiating dittos, end of story. That’s a means in itself if you’re into a natural representation and can appreciate a live acoustic reference, regardless of playback level. And honky sound? Some horns can do that, but others don’t. You should seek more out for audition, and hear this for yourself - unbiased. Regarding the imaging thing: to be perfectly honest, the narrow baffle sales speech does nothing to me, because I can’t relate to or identify its so-called virtues - and it’s not for any lack of trying. My own speakers, which are all-horns (that is, from some 60Hz and up, below which a sub takes over), are 80 cm’s wide (over 30") and the enclosures are by no means diffraction friendly by that school of thought (Peak Consult speakers on the other hand, if you know them, image in ways that close to no other speakers I've heard can replicate, but whether it's really more natural I'd question). However, they image wonderfully, and I’d be very glad to let you hear for yourself.  It’s not that I can’t appreciate non-horn and smaller speakers, on the contrary, it’s just really not "my thing" anymore as something I would actually own. Been there done that. Having said that I respect your choice of speakers and preference here, but it seems to me much of your inclination towards horn speakers is heavily biased from a ground of limited experience (and perhaps under less than ideal circumstances?), but if you should still come to the same conclusion with more widespread experience under better conditions, fair enough - to each his own.

@inna

Perhaps someone should start a thread regarding horn speakers. This " love it or hate it " impression has to be explored, I think.
Personally, I don’t like in your face sound nor do I like laid back sound, horns or not.

To truly address horn speakers at least we have to maintain the distinction between the hybrids and the all-horns, but strictly speaking the latter should have the main focus - otherwise, to my mind, it would be doing (all-)horns a disservice, certainly in an effort to narrow down more precisely their sonic imprinting as true horn speakers. Poster @buellrider97 poses a good question above in asking: "Do the high quality horn systems move the air with the authority of underhung voice coils and massive power?," because it calls out comparing quality horns to quality (under-hung voice coil) direct radiating speakers in an area which, in essence, points to revealing differences between them in more general terms. This also goes to show what could be the problematic issue in combining horns with directs radiating transducers, and that at least some of the negativity aimed at "horns" could be rooted in this. Obviously I can’t speak for all let alone base my impressions on an all-encompassing breadth of speakers, horns or not, but going by some monitor speakers in particular (like larger ATC’s, Stage Accompany and JBL’s) and a general larger segment of direct radiating speakers, I find them to exhibit a rather "pulsating," sharply defined, sometimes a bit disjointed (not the ATC’s and SA’s), and in many cases (not the aforementioned monitors) a slight leanness to the upper bass/lower midrange. All-horn speakers by comparison (i.e.: my own speakers, WE, Altec, Living Voice, etc.) can possess more of a kind of a floating/fluid/effortless, warm, enveloping sphere-like crispness, and a sense of uninhibited presence and overall size. The sound here seems less defined (though without lack of detail), and more like a large vibrating, again, sonic sphere in front of you. Contrary to what many believe I find all-horns to perhaps be the most easy-on-the-ears sounding speakers (not to be confused with ’pleasing’ as such), but those who mayn't think this way could in reality be referring to hybrids (or not). The uninhibited presence I’m referring to is not to be confused with in-your-face, a very important distinction here, although I’m aware many describe "horns" to sound like that (and I’m sure they can be right in assuming so based on other speakers). Coming about the sonic impressions of hybrids (horns + direct radiators in some configuration) to my ears generally point in a different, third direction. The last hybrid I listened to more closely were the JBL K2 S9900’s, and I found them to be all-around dynamic but not compellingly coherent, and speaking with different "voices" - particularly in the bass and central to upper midrange. In that regard I find them to mimic in a sense my impressions of other hybrids. Just my $0.02.

@analogluvr

They are Simon Mears Audio Uccello’s, which I’d by happy to recommend as well. They’re hardly to be found used, however (a new pair is priced at approx. $15,000, bought directly from Mr. Mears without any intervening distributor), and roll off below some 60Hz which may lead some to augment them with a sub. They sport a measured ~106dB sensitivity.

To the OP: forgot to recommend the Dutch-based, Stage Accompany speakers, specifically the model M-57 (if it can be had new close to your budget). The larger M-59 would be too expensive, likely even used. There’s also Casta Acoustics Model C, if you can dig them up used.

@analogluvr 

Phusis I just checked out Simon mears and those look like some beautiful speakers you have! I bet they sound fabulous!

Thank you, and yes - I find they are marvelous sounding speakers. In the words of reviewer Kevin Fiske, if I may:

... there is no co-driver interference between the three elements of the Ucellos and the integration is clean and seamless. I heard absolutely no sense of cupping with voices – and that, I am told, is frequently a trait exhibited by horns. And the Ucellos’ dynamic range is simply extraordinary. They have a matchless ability to portray the softest, most subtle information on recordings, then in the next millisecond almost blast you out of your listening chair with a crescendo so fast and so loud it feels as if it might wake the dead.

https://www.dagogo.com/simon-mears-audio-ucello-3-way-horn-loudspeaker-review/