Thanks for the suggestions but these are way over my budget at the moment. I won't be walking into any money soon as I have to put two kids through college. The first just started and the second will be going in a few years. So what I'm proposing is a hard constraint. The speakers I have are pretty old. I've got to think they are more of a vintage speaker. I did see that someone is selling ICE Amp modules (monoblocks) that deliver about 550W/channel for less than 1K. Would they sound good? I think these are just off the shelf modules. |
Is there a specific model I should be looking for of the Innersound amps? |
I understand the statement of not spending the money and will consider this option. I am a little disappointed. I would assume that there were some excellent sounding amps capable of driving my speakers manufactured in the 1990s and early 2000s that would be heavily discounted in todays market. I will admit that I am not up on the changes in amplifiers over the last decade. In fact my previous system was over a decade older than the Soundlabs. Have the changes in amp designs been so significant that I would hear a substantial difference even with my twenty year old speakers?
I did look up the Innersound amp and it seems capable of easily driving my speakers. I will keep my eyes open for one of these amps.
I had read a couple of responses that said the Sunfire amp 400w or 600w sound good with these speakers which is why I was looking in this direction. It was also within my price range.
Thanks for all the responses |
Rrog thanks for the tip on amps designed specifically for electrostats. The tnt amp is an older design. I assume that one can pick one up cheaper than the Innersound. Have you ever compared the two. Does it come close to the Innersound SQ? |
I will begin my search for an esl-300. Any idea what the price range on these amplifiers should be? |
There is not a lot of literature on the amp. I did see that there are differences between the original and the mkll. Is one preferable over another. |
Grannyring,
I have read your previous comments on amplifier choices for Soundlabs and they were among those that influenced my direction. I have no doubt that the Innersound or the Sunfire are among the few SS amplifiers within my budget that can drive the Soundlabs. You specifically cite the 600Wx2 Sunfire. I believe that my system differed from yours slightly in that I have the B-1S woofer. A portion of the bass output will be coming from the subwoofer. I was considering driving the speakers with the 425Wx5 amplifier. From the specs the 425x5 can deliver the current/power required for the high frequency. The two channels driving the B-1S would be loafing. Dr. West told me to limit the power to the B-1s to 400W or less. I guess what I am saying is that I may not need the voltage swing of the 600Wx2 to deliver the lowend punch. Is my conclusion wrong or would there be a substantial sonic difference between the two amps in my system.
Could anyone articulate the difference in amplifier sq between the innersound and sunfire?
A general question to others who have helped. What frequency should I crossover the B-1S at? At what freq does bass go non-directional.
As usual thanks for all the input. |
Thanks for the input. I've never heard of odyssey amps. I will look into them. A more robust power supply is definitely an advantage vs the 425x5. I will consider the 600w Sunfire. I was thinking of crossing at a higher frequency something like 60 or 80hz. There is not a lot space between my speakers as the room is only 15 feet wide where the speakers are located. The room does open up to over 20-30 feet wide and is about 50' long and over 12' high. |
I don't believe that will work for me as the b-1s does not go much belo.w 30hz. I will play around with the crossover point and do it as low as feasible. |
Tthomas I did look up the Odyssey mono blocks. The reviews on these amps are quite impressive. I believe they should be able to handle the low impedance load of the Soundlab speakers. The other suggested amps can all provide high voltage excursions along with driving low impedance loads. My concern would be the ability to produce low frequency sounds with authority. I am currently using a 150W amp with the A-1s and for me the bass does not seem in balance with the rest of the sound coming out of the speaker. My room and system is far from being set up correctly so you have to take what I say with a grain of salt.
Have you been satisfied with the bass and bass transient response from the Odyssey since you have lived with these amps and Soundlab speakers? Does it change with volume level?
Thanks! |
Stringreen,
I do have a budget and I chose to spend most of it on the speakers. The speakers that I purchased are twenty years old although they do sound good. They are not current top of the line. I believe that my choice of amplifier is critical because of the difficult load the Soundlab imposes. The suggestions provided by the contributors to the thread are all good. The Innersound, Sunfire, TNT-200, and Odyssey Monos amplifiers have all been proven to have good SQ with the Soundlabs. Moreover, they are all within reach of my budget which does not make any of them a compromise. Just good amps for my speakers. |
So now I've come full circle. I have a great list of amplifiers I should look into that have been proven to work with Soundlabs. I will restate one of my initial questions. I am less constrained on my A-1s in requiring high voltage on the low end since I have the planar bass panel that I can drive with a separate amplifier. Would I be better off going with a lower power but higher resolution (on the high end) amp for the A-1s such as the mf2500a or the Odyssey Monos. Are we talking about very subtle or significant differences in sound signature.
One thing that I have decided is that I am going to try more than one of these amps to settle on one that I like. |
Thanks Atmasphere. I will keep this in mind. It does point out the difference in tube vs ss for driving a varying impedance speaker. |
Thanks for all of your responses. I learned a lot. Grannyring I will definitely take your advice. I am going to try the suggested amps until I find one I really like. I was looking at a 600x2 on ebay but it was pulled from the auction. I am also looking at the Odyssey. No Innersound or CJ in sight or price range. Ideally, I am going to sell some of my stuff to allow me to purchase two amps simultaneously to compare/sell. I will be patient as it appears that the amps only show up sporadically. Of course these funds will likely get siphoned towards college tuition. I can always use the other amp on the B-1S until I settle on a choice. Here's hoping the economy starts improving!
Perhaps my next topic will be preamps/room correction but I am not prepared for that now. |
Here is a brief update. First, thanks for all the suggestions. I will be purchasing and comparing the suggested amplifiers. Ideally, I would like to have two different amps for comparison over the long term. Cull out the loser and move on to the next until settling on an amp for a while. I am looking for the innersound, sunfire, and perhaps the cj. I will be patient. I can probably pick up the acoustat or the hafler 9500 on the cheap for a test run as these are substantially older amps. I was able to find and pick up the Odyssey Monos within my budget. Obviously, these have the advantage of no power supply interaction between channels. They will have the upgraded transformer, 360K uf of capacitance per amplifier, and the Kismet (latest version) boards so they should be able to deliver power to a low impedance load. This is a newer amp so issues related to device component aging will be minimal. I have an older set of 1M straightwire maestros ic for connecting the amps to the speakers that I will be using (these came with my speakers).
My next question relates to preamplifiers. I am only going to be listening to music through a server. My goal is to just listen to music instead of fussing with the system day and night. Right now I have the squeezebox touch device with CDs converted to flac. I am also interested in devices having the ability to support room eq. I want simplicity so a combo device will be my compromise. The devices that come to mind are the Integra dhc-80.2, tact-2.2x, and lyngdorf. I can get these used within my budget. Although I do not have any sacds and the like this might be of interest to me in the future. Would I go wrong with any of these DSP pre-amps or any other suggestions? |
Thank you for your input. I am going to a server based system (all my music is in digital (no analog)). Would I be better off with something like a Benchmark Dac HDR directly to my amplifiers. Also I would need to crossover from my A-1s to my B-1s. I was looking at an all in one solution (pre-pro with room eq and crossovers). This may not be the way to go as you have stated. Although I have never used room eq, from what I read I thought the benefits out weighed any loss in resolution. I guess I did not take the Soundlabs into account. Others suggested using an older Meridian or Casablanca pre-pro that has good dacs to drive the 4 speakers. Are there other preamps/dacs for digital that I should be considering that work with my setup (2k or less). |
Any suggestions on preamps or dacs that work well with Soundlabs. |
It has both types of inputs. |
Thank you I will look into the Ayre. The Benchmark HDR has an analog volume control but the latest version has a digital volume control. I appreciate the advice. Is there any reason to use a preamp with a Dac when Dacs now have volume controls. I would assume adding more devices into the signal path cannot be good. |
Excellent advice. I absolutely agree with you that I may get eventually get back to playing vinyl. I have several hundred albums in storage at the moment. Moreover, I don't see what I am doing as an end game. More like a beginning. It is good to know that my speakers are not the limiting factor (even with their age) and can be improved a lot by playing with components of the system. I want to put my initial system together based on the collective ear of those who have similar systems to cobble together something that is adequate within my budget. I will play around with speaker placement and room treatments to try to get that right. Once I put my kids through college, I will be able to direct some funds towards a much improved system.
I will likely look into Dacs like the Ayre that have a volume control. I'm still wrestling with how to crossover to the B-1S. One suggestion was to crossover at the lowest octave (40hz). I could use an analog crossover to achieve this but would wonder if this would be the limiting factor coloring the sound (e.g. defeating the purpose of using a Dac like the Ayre). I could similarly crossover in the digital domain but then would require two Dacs. Dr West at Soundlab told me that several people he knows runs them without crossovers with good results. Some type of parametric eq might have to be used. He also told me to pay attention to phase in using any type of crossover. One other alternative proposed by Dr. West was to disconnect the bass transformer in the A-1s. He said the B-1s would integrate well in that scenario because it goes up to 350Hz. My own thoughts is that I would want to keep the bass directional (coming from the A-1s). I don't know at what frequency bass becomes non-directional. |
That thought did occur to me but I would purse that after I have played with the B-1S a little bit. My speakers are in what was our formal dining room. It is probably 15 feet wide. The speakers look like a wall that hides the electronics which makes the wife happy. I have a couple of real traps on stands in the corners (no other traps because of waf but I might be able to put one behind the B1s) The speakers fire into my living room that is adjacent to dining room. The most I can move the speakers from the back wall is about 5-6'. The ceiling in the dining room is 12 ft high. The living room is much wider probably 20-30 ft wide and extends at least another 30 feet from the dining room (although where I would sit is about 16- 20 feet from the speakers). The ceiling in the living room opens up into a loft area that is probably 15-20 feet high in places (high pitched roof). |
One question. I don't understand your point about both amplifier needing similar power. From what Dr West told me the B1s has an impedance of about 16 ohms to over 30 ohms. I think it is spec at being able to handle 400 watts but Dr West told me not to use an amplifier over 400W. I would assume that I need voltage not high power for the B1s. Of course if I am using a transistor amp the only way I will get the voltage is if I get a high power amp. |
Atmasphere,
I appreciate the sage advice. What you say makes a lot of sense. Although I won't get rid of the B1-S just yet. I definitely won't be buying anything for the B-1S (e.g. amp/crossover). I will concentrate on the equipment for the A-1s. I'm beginning to look at some DAC-Preamps. I will definitely consider the Ayre Dac.
Best Regards,
Gwho |
Thanks for all your help. It is greatly appreciated. |
Grannyring,
I was wondering if you might give me your subjective view of the modifications you made to the soundlab backplate. What would the priority be as far as bang for the buck that made significant improvement to the sound.
You were correct that when the sunfire 600x2 goes on sale it does not last long. I did listen to a sunfire 400x7 on my system (just running two channel) and it sounded excellent. I'm sure the 600x2 will sound even better.
Any input would be appreciated.
Gwho |
