A lot of shamanism and snake oil have no real physical science behind them whatsoever. But that has never meant that they do not lack effectiveness when applied at the right time to the right person.
Many people are ’healed’ because they think they are healed. We tend to scoff at that and see it as weakness in the patient and devious by the practitioner.
Placebo is an extraordinarily powerful phenomenon which is largely untapped in modern medicine and considered unethical in most cases. Of course it happens all the time but in ways that are not admitted by patient or practitioner and are not officially sanctioned.
The B12 shot is probably the gold standard. It is a bright red liquid given by injection and millions of people claim and swear that its effects are tangible. And yet, the science says otherwise. If your B12 level is normal, them more B12 does, can do, nothing for you from a pharmacological or metabolic standpoint. But countless patients will pay cash for it and tell you they feel terrible without it even though their B12 levels have always been normal.
And B12 is harmless as a substance.
As a new audiophile, coming from a lifetime medical background, I have a hard time believing that a lot of what is seen as beneficial or detrimental in this area are closely akin to placebo and nocebo effect. Why would we think the audiophile arena is exempt? No other similar areas are.
And in the end, if you pay big money for a dubious tweak that makes your system sound better than it ever has, who is to say that it doesn’t sound that way to you and that it wasn’t worth every penny?
Now, claiming that peach pit extract will cure stage 4 lung cancer, and whatever hi-fi scam fits that analogy, is not okay. Desperation and ignorance open the door to abuse. |
@mapman Do you think it is always lies and deceit? Don't you think some purveyors of snake oil actually believe in its potency? |
I think those are all possible explanations for the development of knowledge but I also think there are serious gaps in the historical record to assume that was a de facto scenario across all cultures and situations. Of course, some of that depends on how broadly 'shaman' is defined.
I think an equally good argument could be made that in some cultures, or even sub-cultures, shamanism has kept them in the dark rather than extracting them from it.
Of course 'science' can do the same thing. |
Geoff, we all know you'd seen everything long before this thread rolled around. |
@geoffkait : "
But seriously, can you give me an example of an audio device or tweak that doesn’t have science behind it?"
Everything has science behind it right? So that is hardly a qualifier. Of anything.
"
You are not an engineer or physicist so maybe you’re not really a good candidate for finding a science explanation."
So only engineers and physicists can use science? Not at all surprising that you would look at things that way.
But since, according to you, there is a scientific explanation for absurd audio tweaks....and if you're not sure what I'm talking about I can refer you to a website that's full of them...then just pick one.....even from that website....and enlighten us.
"I did not create reality."
Geoff, we all know false modesty when we see it. |
Only half of the audio equation has to do with production of sound. The other half is hearing plus perception. I might have some qualification in that regard.
And to suggest that the placebo-type effect does not have a role in audio perception is not only silly, it is a bit naive.
"sorry to disappoint"
Geoff, you have never disappointed me. It isn't even possible. |
@geoffkait :" Care to explain to the folks at home what you think the difference is between hearing and perception?"
Surely you know and are just being a....well, just being a Geoff. But just in case:
First, obviously, hearing is a form of perception but all perception is not hearing. But, generally speaking ’hearing’ is simply the ability to detect vibration while perception is considered the processing and interpretation of those vibrations in the central nervous system.
A good example of the difference would be someone who has a central nervous system lesion in an auditory or visual processing area. Such a person would be considered deaf or blind even though their ears or eyes function perfectly. And in the case of vision such a person will visually perceive absolutely nothing but if something is thrown at them they will duck because of a reflex tract that can be preserved even when higher visual processing is lost. So they can perceive but not 'see'. Get it?
|
@geoffkait "Duh?"
You asked. Sherlock.
"
it’s probably best to use my interpretation - hearing is the same thing as perception of sound"
Not really.You can perceive sound without a functioning auditory system. Not many people would call that hearing. So your interpretation is not precise either. The semantics can get dicey.
My point in differentiating the two is to point out that two people can hear the exact same thing and respond to and describe it differently even with both of them having equally sensitive auditory apparatus. The signal is received or perceived if you will (hearing) but is processed (perception) differently. This is consistent with the dictionary definition which give both: awareness of the elements of the environment through physical sensation -AND-physical sensation interpreted in light of experience.
"Including psychological factors, but other factors as well. I’m surprised you left psychological factors out. "
I didn't. That's why I said hearing and perception. See above. Quit being such a Geoff and this won't be so hard. |
@geoffkait :"n80 is playing a semantics game with me."
It only feels like a game to you geoff. I doubt anyone else was struggling to parse terms just so they could attack someone.
"he gives me this whole vision perception spiel".
My bad. Did not know that you were analogy impaired. I guess that's why you don't get the whole snake oil/ sham audio tweaks thing.
"For someone who fancies himself an expert on physiology he didn’t do a very good job with hearing and perception"
Hardly a "fancy". I've got the credentials to back it up. But that's beside the point isn't it? We know who has the only credentials that count. Everyone else's are pretense, right?
And the only reason you think it wasn't a good job is because as always your initial impulse in virtually any thread is to attack. And this time, like so many others, it failed and made you look rather, well, Geoffish.
"left himself wide open to attack"
I guess it still seems counterintuitive to have to protect myself from "attack" in a hi-fi forum. Were it not for you that would not have become a necessity here at Audiogon.
"Let’s try to focus here"
Strange comment from the primary disruptor of civil conversation on this site. Apparently you are irony impaired as well.
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Back to the OT: When I was in the Air Force we had a Lt. Colonel in the clinic who, in addition to being an MD, was proud of the fact that he had been to shaman school. Never knew what that was or what it meant. Would often see him in his office sitting face to face with patients looking them intently in the eyes. Nothing unseemly, his door was always open, just weird. His patients were loyal to him. I never knew if it was because of his shaman training or the fact that he was extraordinarily liberal with narcotics. He did not believe that anyone should ever have any pain whatsoever. |
We were told in ROTC that historically the idea of professionalism started with the military officer class. Not sure if this is true. But at the time of the development of that concept that particular class was surely putting it all on the line for their calling. It was not just training and a standard of conduct, it was putting your life on the line too. |
@schubert Good one. We used to call it "Chair Force".
True story. I went to a military college. Had to decide which ROTC to sign up for. I went to each one and asked them how much PT they did. Marines, multiple times a week. Army, every Friday. Navy, once a month. Air Force, once a semester. For a thinking man there was no question about where to go.
@geoffkait The modern USAF have, perhaps, the ugliest and least awe inspiring uniforms in history.
@nonoise The political pseudo-shamans of today are technically what you’d call a bureaucrat. They are, in my opinion, the very opposite of anything even resembling professionalism. They are governed by no principles, ideals or concepts, not even pragmatism, other than the notion that all problems can be solved with more paper work and bureaucracy. In this respect they resemble cancer more than anything else. Currently almost all real power in the U.S. resides with them. |
@schubert My memory is probably not accurate. And maybe it was ’voluntary’ PT but the Marines were always doing it. My roommate was in Navy ROTC and he never went out with the Marines. Where I went to school all of us, every single student, were in ROTC whether we intended to accept a commission or not. So way more than half of the student body, all males back then, took four full years of ROTC but never went into the military. Which is all to say that it was probably the career track guys out there running and doing push-ups all the time.
Edit: I just looked it up. The school has a "Marine Contingent" within the Navy ROTC department. They accept Marine Corp commissions. |
In the Air Force the saying was that if you complain about a problem long enough someone of higher rank will finally.............tell you to stop. |
9 billion chickens are eaten by Americans every year. That's about 93 pounds of chicken per person. 50 billion world wide.
"I eat more chicken any man ever seen." Jim Morrison |
