I may also consider the soundsmith MM because of its superior stability compared to a MC. The Hana is good but a REAL MC cartridge starts around 2 thousand bucks. Weird. I switched from a Soundsmith Carmen to a Hana SL and the improvement was incredible. The Carmen isn’t even in the same league, let alone the same ballpark. The linked thread details the experience of a guy who "downgraded" to the Hana SL from a Koetsu Rosewood: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/so-glad-i-took-a-chance-on-a-hana-cartridge.751483/#post-18685655 I also posted in that thread regarding some trouble I was having with the bass of my SL, but disregard all of that, it turned out to be a problem further up the chain. My local dealer used to listen to a Koetsu Rhodonite on a regular basis. He's considered one of the most talented analog gurus in the industry and sets up 5-figure analog systems regularly. He will tell you Hana carts are hands down the best value out there. |
I have forgotten more than all of you will ever know about high end audio. Is that you Donny? |
Hana doesnt last. Reports are out that they burn out after 400 hrs. I want something that will do a 1000 hrs. Not sure where you’re getting your info. I haven’t come across any such accounts despite my frequent participance on multiple forums. Occasionally an MC cart needs to be demagnetized, which is a simple, zero-cost procedure that a caveman can perform. As for stylus longevity, those who I consider the foremost experts seem to agree that 500 hours is the limit for about any advanced diamond cut before it begins to cause record wear. For conical and standard ellipticals, that number is even lower, closer to 250 hours. You could take the word of a manufacturer who has a vested interest in selling you his cartridges, and thus very likely to make exaggerations, or seek out some real independent research. The linked blog post is worth a read for any analog enthusiast: https://thevinylpress.com/the-finish-line-for-your-phonograph-stylus/ All I can tell you is that I’ve owned both carts and the Hana SL is superior by a wide margin. The only feature liked of the Carmen was its threaded body. The Hana ML does have a threaded body and would be my choice if budget allows. That or maybe the well-regarded AT ART-9. |
Unfortunately that's the only arm that comes with the SCOUTMASTER. JMW MEMORIAL TONEARM. Unipivot offers less friction. Follows the grooves better. Superior sound. Bearings add friction and you lose detail. Someone knows how to read marketing brochures. Only Linn product I ever liked is my 20 year old Linn Ikemi cd player. LP12 is all hype. VPI's blow them away. If you're so experienced, why do you come here for advice? The reality is that a current LP12 of will slaughter some VPIs (even a Thorens 160 can), while some VPIs will surpass the Linn. But you wouldn't know this because you simply subscribe to marketing hype. |
Regarding cartridges you will always pay more for MC, no matter what.
This is very important for a newbie!
It is obvious that MC has very short life span and stylus is not user replaceable. Even if your MC cartridge has reasonable retail price this is not the end, you will need an expensive MC phono stage, Headamp or SUT to use with this type of cartridges. You can simple double the budget for this reason. It can be a mess even with cables, because Low Output signal from MC cartridge is much more sensitive to the cable shielding etc.
And more important:
If a newbie can't handle tonearm (which is a common problem for people who never use turntables before) you can destroy your MC cartridge in the first week. Even experienced users can make a mistakes.
With MM/MI cartridge you can just buy additional stylus for reasonable price to install it by yourself in 10 seconds and your broken cartridge is back to work just like new.
With MC cartridge you will have to ship it back to the factory via your distributor, you will pay again nearly 60% of the retail price to get new cartridge from them (only if manufacturer offering such support program), or you will ship it to someone like SoundSmith for re-tip or refurbishing. It will cost you a lot and you will have to wait about 3-5 month (depends on retipper).
This is why MC is not for a newbie. And actually it's not better than decent MM or MI.
This is not a philosophy or bla bla bla. This is real problem.
It's about usability and service.
With exception of Soundsmith carts, the typical replacement stylus for an MM/MI cart is 80% the cost of the cartridge. And no, MM carts do not last longer than MCs. Stylus life is mostly dictated by user habits and diamond profile. A Shibata diamond will last about 500 hours before it begins to cause record wear. For an elliptical, it's about 250 hours. Other than AT and SS carts, very few MMs come with an advanced stylus profile. I've owned a $900 Soundsmith MI, its performance was a joke compared to a $750 Hana SL. Yes, the SL costs more in the long run but for those with a deserving system, the difference is worthwhile. |
With exception of Soundsmith carts, the typical replacement stylus for an MM/MI cart is 80% the cost of the cartridge.
@helomech just check Peter's interview and he said at 17:00 here SoundSmith cartridges will be rebuild ONLY for 20% of the cost (not 80% as you said).
I stated, "with exception of Soundsmith carts." Learn how to read. |
Everyone here has poisoned me on VPI. Guess they suck. Now I am looking at a new Acoustic Signature primus or a Rega RP8. Any thoughts on those tables? FWIW, my local dealer loves the old variations of the VPI Scout with unipivot arm. He's still a VPI dealer but readily admits the new models are not nearly as good as previous generations. He especially despises the 3D ("plastic" in his words) arms. He also sells TOTL SME tables. The main rig in his listening room is a 30/2 but he says he's still impressed with the value of the original Scouts. I'm sure he'd probably take one over a new Prime. Acoustic Signature makes nice tables. I have a Wow XL and it handily outclassed a VPI Classic 1 in my system. I'd wager anything AS makes will outperform a VPI of the same price. The RP8 is a smoking deal at $1999, in theory, but some users have reported warping of the foam plinths, same for the P6. If not for this concern, an RP8 should be a top contender. Another table you should consider is the Gem Dandy Polytable Super12. George Merrill is an excellent engineer and he made many smart choices when designing that table. |
Fairly certain my VPI dealer would tell you the Scoutmaster is one of the best tables they've ever made short of an Aries or HRX. Personally, I'd take a Scoutmaster over the AS Primus. Its AS equivalent would probably be closer to the Wow XL or Triple X.
I do like the Rega sound though. I wouldn't be afraid to buy one from Music Direct because any quality issues are likely to come up within the first 60 days of ownership anyway. That's true of most gear IME.
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Oops, my mistake.
But then it’s just like my argument how inconvenient the MC cartridges really are. Does that mean a Hana charge 80% of retail to rebuild or completely change their cart officially via distributors ? Yes, MC cartridge replacement is typically about 80% cost of new. I don’t consider it very inconvenient. It’s simply a a matter of mailing the old cart to the dealer and receiving a brand-new one in return. That’s how most MC cart exchanges are handled these days. It’s not like Soundsmith, where you have to wait for them to retip your original cartridge, though that’s probably still the case with some esoteric carts like some of the Koetsus. So the only real advantages of MM are that you can order a replacement stylus and not have to be without a cart for a few days. That and you don’t necessarily have to realign it each time (though often times realignment is necessary as no two stylus/cantilever assemblies are truly identical). One disadvantage of MM is that stylus assemblies tend to have a rather loose mating with their cartridge housings. Any slight bit of tolerance there will result in some amount of signal distortion vs the fixed assemblies of an MC. Further, MCs have the well-known advantage of a lower moving mass - similar to the advantage of Soundsmiths MI carts. Lower moving mass is a big advantage according to PL of SS, and it applies to MCs as well as MIs. The problem with MCs in terms of cost is that most examples under $500 U.S. are inferior sounding to a good MM. People try a $350 MC from Denon or Ortofon, realize it’s crap, then swear off MCs all together. Typically, MCs under $1K don’t sound all that good. That’s where Excel stepped in and changed the game with their relatively affordable Hana series. I’ve had some quite respectable MMs with Microline and SAS diamonds. They’re good and I could live with them if I had to, but a Hana SL or ML are indeed in another league if setup correctly and mated with a decent phono stage. That said, one of the salesmen at my local hifi shop traded his Clearaudio Maestro V2 (Micro HD stylus/ boron cantilever) for the $450 Hana EL and didn’t look back. I was surprised by this but the guy is pretty well versed with all things analog. |
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Dear @jeffvegas : I don't know you but I don't like mediocrity/average audio items, digital or analog.
All the advises here for analog and what you are asking for are in the mediocrity land, belongs to this territory.
In the digital domain the advises are in the mediocrity level too as that Benchmark.
If you like the mediocrity then go for what ever you think you need.
If you don't like and don't want stay in that mediocrity then you need to make a wise decision. In the analog alternative you need a phono cartridge in the 3K-5k price range and only for the cartridge. You need that cartridge along a TT, a tonearm ( not unipivot, no matters what. ) and a first rate phono stage and you can't do it for less than 10K.
In the digital alternative you can go out of the mediocrity starting at your budget of 4K and up for the DAC.
Everything can " sounds " but not everything can sounds out of the mediocrity. Is up to you not the other gentlemans ( including me. ) in this thread. Typical hogwash from an audiophile elitist -- ignorance on par with a flat-earther. |
Lol!!! Now you got me back on this used SCOUTMASTER I can get for 1500 bucks. The REGA RP8 on music direct is 2 grand. Can get a RP10 for 3 grand used. Cartridge and phono stage will come later. I am focusing on a solid table to build a analog foundation on. Chime in goners which one should I get and why? My choice of those three would be the RP10. That said, this thread needs a little balance. Some here are claiming nothing under $10K competes with direct-drive, another is claiming direct-drive is just DJ junk. Both of these assertions are unequivocally false. Anyone with ample experience with reference examples of both should know that either can sound excellent, with any measurement imperfections far below the threshold of the media (the noise floor that's literally cut/pressed into the grooves). And no, it doesn't take a $15K investment to get reference quality sound from either design type. I have a $3K belt-drive table (sans arm) that maintains speed within .03% of perfect according to a KAB Speedstrobe. Most listeners can't detect a pitch change under 1%. If direct drive were so inferior, VPI wouldn't be charging $30K for their DD model. If belt-drive is so inferior, Mikey Fremer would just use a 1200G, sell his Caliburn and pocket five figures. Further, if direct-drive was so inherently superior, the DD behemoth, Micro-Seiki, wouldn't have bothered to produce flagship models like the SX-8000. I do. It’s not that simple if your LOMC cartridge cost $4500 and to replace it (when the stylus is worn) you will have to pay 60% of the new cart again. It not always 80%, but even 60% from $4500 is $2700 ! In the MC world even $4500 is not the highest price and i had those cartridges before (never again). If one can't afford the replacement/retip cost, then it's stupid to purchase that cartridge in the first place. I would agree with you if your argument were that anyone on a tight budget should stick with MMs. Replacement cost is irrelevant, as it costs approximately 66 to 80% of the whole assembly to fit nearly any CURRENTLY-produced cartridge with a new stylus. Cartridge affordability really comes down to "act your wage." |
