Schroder sq and the new talea

What can we make of posts on the web in various forums that the "schroder is a world class arm but nevertheless i preferred the talea?" i wonder if someone out there preferred his schroder? I'm this is the case. or is it?

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Dgad,

That helps thanks!

Also...

***You just need to compare different great combination's***

That just about sums it up and is a good formula for building a system.

What tonearm/cart combos have you liked alot?

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I havent visited my thread for a while. And when i posted this i never imagined that it would have gone to 5 pages.

It seems the initial comparisons at the show could not provide any meaningful conclusions because the arms were compared with more than only one variable and the integrity of the test was compromised.

It must be a daunting task to do a quality controlled comparison when you've invested so much time and love into your baby. I know i would be scared to be dethroned if i was considered up their with the best.

Maybe this way it does more justice to two great arms that we dont have a definitive answer to which arm appeared to sound better.

It would be fascinating to me to have another go at a "friendly audio enthusiast comparison" between the two arms.

This would be the "boxing ring" where the two heavyweights could meet for the "title match"...

1. Shoot out is done on no earlier than the second day of the show so that each designer feels they have dialed in the table arm cart combo and are satisfied they have set up their arm so that it is operating optimally.

2. Use either A) 2 saskia's or b) One acustic raven with each of the competing arms mounted on it.

3. Both desingers understand 1 and 2 and based upon that agree on a single cart they feel is a satisfying match for their arm and for the system they will be compared in but both must agree to the same cart.

4. All other parameters are identical, ie phonostage , speakers, cables, room etc, etc, even to the point of matching decibal output levels via a test tone and decibal meter prior to playing back a track. A person is assigned to track and set the decibal level.

5. Several generes of music are used in the comparison.

6. People vote on a blank sheet of paper , cast anonymous ballots but cant give head nods or comment verbally until all the votes have been cast.

I think the above would truly be a quality test and i think the arms might be alot closer in terms of their tone then people might think. Its all the other parameters we expect an arm to be able to perform that will probably decide who wins and i figure only by a ...technical knockout. Somehow i doubt that either of these two arms will have the other "reeling on the ropes from a blow!"

It would settle the claim for or against as to whether the talea really is a "game changer or not!" [good marketing hype or?] and maybe schroder
can put the new kid on the block in his place! [ i only jest!]

Wouldn't a schroder talea on a saskia shoot out be wild!?

In the left corner weighing in at 500g the heavy weight champion of the world.....the schroder sq!!!!!!

and in the other corner.....!

Ding! Ding!

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[smile]

Congratulations to both designs....

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***You are a true optimist.**** [smiling]

No, I'm a dreamer!!!!

[...like i said above... "wouldn't it be wild?!!!!"]

Yes!...it would!

Imagine that ...2 saskias! One with a talea, one with a schroder. Both set up to the designers satisfaction and by their expertise!

The post was what i would consider one of my ultimate "fantasy shoot outs" [which always includes "controlled" testing] and only ONE variable and just the thought of it was thrilling!

Didn't i mention it would be daunting? I realize that it would be difficult for them to say yes to such a thing because of the ramifications of the outcomes. Even in the that controlled environment, there are still problems with it.

In short comparisons with limited discs your understanding of "which is the better arm" is weak. When we listen we focus on one aspect of the music at a time but it takes several listens to the same track, to get a more complete picture and bottom line. Sometimes with some aspects it can take months to wrap ones mind around whether they like one arm over the other. No?

Then theres the problem of the publicity of the results, the blanket statements that will be made afterwards , which assumes that the conclusions are definitive and objective.

Plus, the shoot out is still being done in isolation to hundreds of other systems out there and so while one arm might work better in one system it might not in another.

If the larger community of audiophiles really understood that such a shoot in the final analysis doesnt really amount to much, then we can just all have fun and shake hands and still be willing to explore BOTH arms in our own systems.

**** Do you think poor Win Tinnon has two 200-lb Saskias that he wants to schlep to Denver from North Carolina, just so two prima donna tonearm makers can argue over cartridges and phono stages?***

[smiling] Relax! I was just dreaming out loud! [smile] and...just throwing it out there...who knows!...maybe this dream might gain some momentum! ...I realize how much work and how expensive it must be to move those saskias and the economy isnt doing so well but maybe it would be some good exposure for his tables to be involved in such a shoot out? And maybe he's up for some good fun and thats reason enough for him?

I did realize the logistical problems with that and that is why i offered option "B", which was ...making use of a single acustic raven table, just throwing ideas out there and having fun. I picked those two off the top of my head because when i think of them i think "low noise" tables. It could be any table though.

If 100 people voted anonymously and 60 chose schroder and 40 talea, does that mean anything? Do most people have a refined enough palate to pick out the 200 dollar bottle of wine from the 60 dollar?

If boston wins the stanley cup does that mean they are the better team? I guess one could ask me...If you think all that and believe it to be true why do you propose the above shoot out in the first place or suggest it?

Well, because they are both respectable arms and for the sheer pleasure of making the comparison! in good fun! just for the sport of it!

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Dgad,

With the my allaerts mc1b mk2 cart and breuer 8c mk2 , based upon what i could learn through forums like these, reviews and a bit of hard thinking, i go by faith that what i have is very very good and maybe even better than i know? Because i have owned less than 2 combinations ever! that is why , the rest of the way i have to go by faith. I dont have a extravagant budget, just extravagant tastes and appetites! so i did my research decided on the above cart. Next came the breuer using the same logic. ie, which arm is a really good arm, maybe a last... and a good match for the allaerts. I wanted to get to the "top" [or in that region at least], pay the price of admission, see if they "get me there" and stop looking and shopping. This arm and this cart seemed great candidates to accomplish that. I appreciate your response because it helps to build confidence that i've made the right decisions. Especially when it is coming from a schroder sq[a arm i have always been infatuated with]/titan i, owner who has owned the same combo on a table of the likes of the acustic and from a audiophile who has probably heard and owned more combos than i have. Maybe i exaggerate in my minds eye ,how good the schroder would sound because of my infatuation with it?

Your two combos sound similar. That is very interesting. So, my combo too, must be in some ways be in the vicinity of the schroder/ titan combo too. Therefore i kinda have some of the degree of skill of the schroder with my breuer, so i can be content.

Things will start to get blurry now as i try to predict how what you heard with the breuer/allaerts combo [on an acustic table] and what i hear with it on my lenco 78[wood/dmf panzerholz armboard] table, how the sound is different? Not to mention our other system differences which are many. [smiling] Like i said its going to get blurry![smile] Having said that ...in general terms...we are both very excited by what we hear, so it seems we are able to communicate some general truths about the virtues of this combo!!!

I bought the allaerts new so i could have a warranty and because i wanted to know that i was getting a good cart. So you could say i'm married to it, not just living together!...[laughing] Because it is staying so will the breuer.

I own a "true vintage" j45 gibson guitar. It uses all solid woods, real bone for its nut and bridge, rosewood fretboard, and even bonded with old school method of "hot hide glue" and i can hear the difference between a similar guitar made from synthetic materials and mine. Mine has a deep, earthy, buttery tone. A smoothness. That is partly what attracts me to the schroder. Maybe the difference between our construction materials in regards to what our table are made from gives me some of the attributes of wood that i think i would like. Having a acustic 1 table would probably tell alot.

I'm guessing that where the two combos depart slightly from each other is in this area? I'm talking fine degrees. As you mention they sound very similar but i would venture the schroder combo still is a few degrees more bent toward the mid range euphonics side of things[ i mean this as a virtue] .More organic, earthy midrange, while the other is more toward neutral , clean,sparkle and silky? The schroder has a "thicker" subcontext or texture to its tone and presentation? no?

Syntax, I think to some degree i have the capacity to enjoy such a comparison on both levels.

Ps...Lewn [smile]...I'm still too young to be put in the category of old fa--. I'm somewhere in between young whipper snapper and that ....AND thanks to my dad I DO still have a full head of hair...[smile]

***As a final note, if what I just wrote sounds less than ideal, please understand that the "magic" you have will come at the expense of some things. You will miss it once it is gone. But it isn't for all music. Enjoy!!!***

Because our systems are different therefore our results will be different in fine ways,in fine graduations, one way or the other. So the degrees of weakness and perceived strengths you perceived in the combo might be how the rest of your system interacts with that combo for the better or the worse and therefore influence the final assessment of a cartridges forte.

I think its possible to pull and push a cartridges perceived signature ,within limits, by the myriad of contextual changes you can make by switching cables, mats, shims and components.

I'm exploring those limits through experimentation with the use of different mat materials, shim materials between the cart and arm.

I am having a couple of shims of different thicknesses of titanium made up to see how it will influence the sound. I currently have a tiny panzerholz shim installed and like the results. With each kind of shim i have to try several different mats because how one material interacted with the other might not react in the same way with the other. One change effects the others.

When i think of the influence the lenco is having on the combo, its difficult for me to gauge that without having heard a low noise table of the acustic or vpi type to compare it to. If i did it would make the task easier.

Second hand reports have indicated that both have their virtues. One has more detail and a lower noise floor while other produces more noise but is musical in its own way. One has a masters in math the other in art. The comparison was between a acustic raven 3 and a dobbins garrard i believe.

Sometimes i think maybe the wood plinth is a wonderful compliment for a aluminum based armtube. Adding a little warmth in the midband to a arm designed to be very resolving. But again in the end i have no other reference. I have heard a vpi mark 4, a scout and a rockport though.

At best i can hope that the difference between my lenco in wood plinth and a table like the acustic is similar to the difference between the TW/allaerts combo and the schroder sq/titan combo comparison.

I like to believe my wood lenco with panzerholz armboard adds some earthiness, warmth, body and texture to the final overall tone of the allaerts.breuer combo that can only come from wood based materials.

Mixing, the resonant signatures of metal, wood and plastic based materials to produce a final tone is a fine art.

For example if i want the allaerts to be more agressive for rock i can produce that quality by putting slate under my amps and influencing the final tone. If i want my sound to be a little more softer and romantic i bet i could acheive that by putting my amps on american walnut.

So i dont feel 'stuck' or feel that the allaerts magic is less than ideal for rock because i haven't drawn that conclusion yet with it. I can identify with your descriptions but i dont know if they transfer exactly to my experience and situation for the above named reason which i am trying to articulate.

The allaerts like every other cartridge is 'colored'. With my fast amps, dynamic phonostage, the allaerts powerful neodymium magnets, my speakers neodymium magnets, the speed of the breuer, the speed of silver wiring, i don't feel that my rock lacks dynamics, speed or that the music prettied up.

ACDC "you shook me all night long" sounds powerful, fast, toneful, clear, aggressive and extremely dynamic and at a very high level. In this regard people should not consider it a romantic cartridge because it is not soft like old definitions and understandings of that concept. This cart is a departure from that. There is a way in which it is "beautiful" but it should not be called romantic. As i'm sure you would agree.

What i'd like to say is that i really do feel it has inherent in its design the potential to do rock very well, using my own fender strat and biting hiwatt tube amp as my barometer. So i know what "grind" sounds like.

Anyways...as i continue to tweak and experiment i will try to steer the sound with this cart at the front, to a sound that is more and more blind to musical genre. In general as a all round performer in my opinion, in my system its already pretty close.