SACD vs ANALOG

Fat Albert and ears--remember me for that list as well!

My impressions are similar to Mr. Porter's. SACD is probably getting you closer to the master tape, and as such has certain advantages, but still doesn't have the warmth or intimacy of vinyl. It is a clear step above CD. I tend to get the same let-down when I switch back to most CDs from either vinyl or SACD, but I still prefer a record on the turntable when I really want to get totally immersed in the music. Fat Albert, if most of those LPs are classical or 60's-70's rock and in good shape, I hope you like the 9000ES! As far as the future of the format goes, Sony is finally going the right route on the hardware, getting out cheaper units and combining them with high quality DVD players, so they're getting units in the hands of consumers. Now they have to get their act together on the software, both price-wise and with new releases using a full DSD recording and mastering chain. I hope the format makes it, as it's what a lot of us have been wishing digital could be.

Tmartinjr, as an owner of an SACD player, I hope you are correct, although in each of the cases you mention the new medium was a considerable step up in convenience (CD vs. LP, DVD vs. Laserdisc) or quality (in the case of DVD; perceived quality with LP, due to the apparent clarity and the lack of ticks and pops). Here, the disc is the same size as a CD and to the masses who only want MP3 quality sound the sonic improvements are not as noticeable. Nonetheless, with 6-channel SACD players and discs becoming available, perhaps that is what will help the software catch on with the masses. Having just listened to the Delos Mahler 2 SACD last night with its silky, analog-like strings and stupendous dynamic range, it's clear to me we have a format that is worth supporting; let's hope the record companies and the general music-buying partners agree.

914nut--your post raised many interesting points, some of which I'll try to address. Your short question was if we're talking about the same deficiencies of CDs. My experience, having listened to SACDs for the past four months, is that SACD offers the following principal improvements over what I consider deficiencies in CDs:

1. Strings and high frequency instruments and ambience are much smoother and more natural. CD sound in this area has always been hashy, rough and harmonically thin to me; while perhaps there is more energy apparent on CD, it has been rough and artificial. Best example I can give is to listen to the 3rd movement of the Delos recording of the Mahler 2nd, both CD and SACD layers; the difference in the strings at the start of the movement is obvious and much better on the SACD layer.

2. On SACD, piano is much richer harmonically. If you compare a good piano recording on SACD (try Periah's Goldberg Variations on Sony) to a normal CD (save perhaps for the VAI reissues or good analog transfers) the CD will sound thin and brittle in comparison.

3. Dynamics--SACD makes CD sound compressed dynamically.

4. Openness--it's tough to describe, but there is an ease and openness to SACD which rivals good analog. CD sounds to me like it's in a box, albeit, on good CD recordings, a very large box perhaps. SACD removes that box.

I'm not sure if these are the problems you have with CD. While I too have not been that impressed with the Telarc Brahms German Requiem disc, feeling it sounds "muddy" or congested, part of that stems from a 200 voice chorus, Brahms' rich scoring and the hall, as well as perhaps Telarc's early bass-heavy tonal balance. I don't know if that's your overriding "noise". Have you tried the recent Reference Recordings discs with the Minnesota Orchestra (Mephisto & Co., Bernstein, Copland, or Bolero)? I hear very little of what bothers me on the Telarc disc on these recordings. Your "twinkle" with violins might sound better as noted in point 1 above, although part of the problem may lie with close miking of the instruments, at least with solo instruments.

Your point on remastered LPs being disappointing, however, makes me wonder if you'll ultimately like SACD. I've found the Classic, Testament and Speakers Corner reissues, on the whole, to be excellent, but clearly different from the originals in that they are closer to the master tape and have less of the warmth (and lack of focus) of the originals. I was stunned at how close the SACD and Classic Records reissue of the Bruno Walter Brahms Fourth sounded to each other. You will NOT get the warmth of vinyl on SACD. You WILL get closer to the sound of the master tape, but with older or poorly made recordings this may turn into a mixed blessing and you may not like it.

I'd suggest a couple of SACDs--the Vanguard you mentioned (the problem with Vanguard's vinyl stemmed in part from their pressings), the Hyperion SACD of the Floristan Trio playing Faure and Debussy, and the Delos Mahler 2 referred to earlier, all hybrid discs. I have found all three to be excellent recordings, and good illustrations of the differences in the formats. If you live in the NYC tri-state area, I invite you to hear them at my home if you'd like (not everyone demos with these recordings). If you continue to be bothered by them, unless your system is a partial culprit (the Wadia sure isn't, it's a fine player) I'm not sure that SACD or 24/96 digital will be the answer to your prayers. Sorry for the length of this post (and I hope the spacing works like I typed it, or it may look funny), but you asked some interesting questions that got me to thinking. Hope this helps in some way.

Jim: Well, it sure isn't your system, unless it's too revealing! I must admit having similar feelings about both the Brahms and parts of the Nature's Realm discs as you, although my characterization of them, as I mentioned before, is congested. Sometimes when the tonal balance of a disc is tilted towards the bass as it is at times in those recordings I feel, when the whole orchestra is playing at a loud level, as if everything is congealing and becoming more opaque. However, I can also get that experience with analog as well, though perhaps not to the same extent. Maybe both of us are showing our age? I do suggest you bring that Florestan Trio disc with you if you trek to Nashville, it is a treat on SACD in the smoothness of the strings and the richness of the piano; I'm not sure SACD will help that much on the WLA, though, as it is such a dry recording venue you may be disappointed. See if they have the Delos, it's a showpiece sonically and very natural sounding, particularly in its ambience retrieval. And thanks for the Eroica Trio reference, I don't have enough of them and am going to have to get some of their records. Good luck!

914nut--You're showing your age with those old speakers! With respect to the Thompson, Analogue Productions has re-released it on vinyl, tube remastering so it sounds quite nice. Definitely spotlighted some of the instruments, that's clear, and I don't doubt the esteemed conductor had something to do with that. The other Vanguard SACDs sound quite good too; while SACD sounds its best for demonstrations with DSD masters, good analog recordings (and not all of the old Columbias that have been released fall into that category) can also sound excellent. I would say that I could live happily with either the vinyl or SACD versions I've got of the Vanguards, which says a lot for the SACDs. As far as the WLA disc goes, it does have quite good string sound, and I'm willing to take their word for it that the hall sounds like that, and I do like the Dvorak performances (I prefer Kertesz on Decca, though), but I just don't enjoy listening to it that much. Much too dry an acoustic. I don't need overly reverberant recordings either, but I would like a little more than what's on that disc.