2. digital
  3. 126498-4358

Questioning the need for a DAC

Friends,
I have a modified Oppo 103 that was a huge step up from my $2K Consonance tube CD player.  I also have a Jolida FX Tube DAC, maybe the II version, which I have had for many years.  I ran the Oppo directly into my system (I have a Don Sachs tube preamp and various amps, tube and SS, and Spatial Audio Hologram M4 Turbo S speakers) and then through the Jolida.  I honestly didn't hear a difference.  Some months later,  I demo'd a Schiit Gungnir and did the same comparison.  I really couldn't discern an audible difference with the Schiit in or out of the system.  I will admit that I sent the Schiit back for a refund after only 30 hours or so of burn-in so maybe 100 hours of burn-in might have lead to a different outcome.  A boatload of audiophiles rave about the sonic improvement with the pricey DAC's in their systems, no question about it.  With my ears, not so much.  

A "cheap and cheerful" audiophile friend of mine, who doesn't listen to much digitally-reproduced music, posed an interesting question.   If one invests in a modern quality CD player (i.e., like the Oppo 103 or 105, which make the Stereophile list of "Class A" products or many others between $1K-$5K), why is there the expectation that one needs a separate DAC to improve the sound of the DAC?   It is not trivial question.  As a matter of fact, I called Oppo while I was auditioning the Schiit DAC, nonplussed, asking why I wasn't hearing some significant improvement with the addition of an external DAC of the caliber of the Gungnir.  In response, the Oppo rep suggested, quite casually, that maybe the internal DAC in the modestly-priced Oppo 103 was quite good.  Indeed, because that is what my 63-year old ears told me.

I'd be keen to hear feedback from others who ponder the same question.   As I age, I am aware of the desire of sellers of many audio products to strike a deal with me that frankly might benefit them more financially than I  benefit sonically.  Cheers, Mark 

  
whitestix

Showing 4 responses by sbank

sbank's avatar
sbank
3,378 posts
 
@whitestix You are correct, you didn't really hear the Gungnir since you didn't give it 100 hours to break-in. I was fortunate to have a friend bring his broken-in Gungnir over for demo vs. my Oppo 105D and another friend's Chord Hugo. I bought a Gungnir and have been impressed with the improvements I hear. Others who've heard both here agree. 

Separately, I respectfully disagree with the conclusions that @williewonka presents about the using USB with Gungnir.  It really depends on the source and its USB implementation! Yes, most USB outputs suck and that's why USB-SPDIF converters make an improvement with those devices. But that's where the facts end. 4 or 5 years those converters made much more sense than they do today.
The better approach IMHO is to use a source that already has a superior USB output such as the microRendu and its server performance via USB will negate the need for additional expenditures on the bandaid USB-to-SPDIF converter. If you read up on John Swenson's work on Regen and the microRendu you will understand my conclusions better and then make your own considering the whole picture. Cheers,
Spencer
sbank's avatar
sbank
3,378 posts
 
@williewonka Your findings make perfect sense given the gear you tested, but I am trying to explain something further(i.e. ComputerAudio301 vs. ComputerAudio201which you've already aced!)

"DAC's that use power from their own onboard power supply tend to perform so much better than those that use the power from the computers USB port simply because the power being supplied is so much cleaner that that supplied via the computers USB port" That is true with a PC or mac, but not true with a single purpose low power designed with a better USB output implementation, linux operating system not running a bunch of extra non-audio processes,  and not plugged into a noisy high voltage power supply like a typical computer. For example, a Sonore microRendu or even a $35 Raspberry Pi powered by any decent linear power supply will run fewer processes which could generate noise, and will draw less current which generates noise or attracts EMI noise. What goes via USB to the DAC is far better than what went out of the full function PC or Mac to the Vlink adapter in your test.  

"So my listening test was as follows...
1. the Bifrost DAC was connected via its USB port to my computers USB port, then...
2. I connected the Vlink192 to my computers USB port, but connected it to the Bifrost with via a digital coax.

#2 was clearly superior. " Yes, makes perfect sense!

Was I wrong to conclude that the USB implementation of the V-Link192 is superior to the that of the Bofrost/Gungnir? Yes, wrong conclusion. The proper conclusion is that the V-Link 192 & coax cable allows the DAC to receive better/quieter signal vs. the noisy USB output of your noisy computer.  

"The V-link192 simply converts USB to Coax Digital - and if its USB interface was not superior wouldn't the sound be the same when played through the same DAC?" I think you meant to type that USB is Inferior, not superior? In any case, the issue is more about the computer or other source and less about the DAC. 

That's why aftermarket tweaks like the VLink, uber expensive Berkeley USB-SPDIF adapter, USB cleaners Regen & Intona are popular. That's partially why audio software packages attempt to shut down unnecessary processes running on Mac O/S or Windows O/S. That's why people try all kinds of A/C filtering, power supplies etc on their computers. Because all these things attempt in some way to fight the crap that degrades digital audio signal going to the DAC. If you win that battle (by eliminating the multi-purpose computer!) and pair with DAC you prefer you stand a good chance of winning the war. Cheers,
Spencer
sbank's avatar
sbank
3,378 posts
 
@williewonka That's all very interesting and insightful. I also tried a dual-headed USB from computer to DAC and it did help on its own to decrease noise from the computer to a small degree. Glad to hear you are using an upgraded LPS on the computer.

I am not doubting the benefit you hear from the Vlink, but my conclusion is that "To get the very best out of the Gungnir (or Bifrost), you have to" feed it from a good single purpose source component. Then you don't need to bypass its USB port. I would assert that Vlink would provide little improvement between my microRendu and Gungnir  Bring it over sometime and we can test it out. Cheers,
Spencer
sbank's avatar
sbank
3,378 posts
 
@williewonka You're welcome anytime you come down Philadelphia way. Off topic, I love Toronto and used to spend many weekends there when I live just "across the lake" in Rochester. One of my fav record store towns back in the day. Hope vinyl still thrives there. Cheers,
Spencer
More to discover