Percentage to spend on Amp and Speakers

Rayhall, I fully agree with your philosophy of looking for neutrality. However, in my experience there are no "speakers which [are] generally quite neutral", even if you spend tens of thousands of dollars. I believe speakers are the most subjective decision, because they all make big mistakes, and you have the pick which mistakes are less important to you (and which virtues are most important). With regards to Jim's crude comment hinting I am using drugs ( I don't think he was referring to the Nearfield Pipedream speakers), I maintain that if you are chosing between reasonably designed solid state amps in a certain price bracket the differences between them constitute "fine tuning" a system. Actually, what I did omit was that the more revealing your speakers are, the more important that "fine tuning" will be. I would agree that with the best speakers around, the upstream decision (amp + front end) is close to 50% of the end result. But this applies only to very revealing speakers (e.g. Avalon Eidolons, SoundLabs, etc.). But in most cases speakers are easily 75% of the sound (again, if the rest of the components are reasonably good, OK ?). In fact, I believe many dealers advise you to pick speakers last because that ensures you are sucked into a never ending upgarde spiral. So there.

By the way Rayhall, I hate preamps, even good ones (I have a good one, BAT VK3i). My next move will be to get rid of it.

I agree with Joe. Jim, we are not talking about $10k speakers (or a $30k system for that matter). What we were suggesting was to buy the best affordable gear available. Good equipment can be had, while saving the bulk of the investment on speakers. Then upgrading is viable depending on the useage of the system. Joe when you sell that BAT, let me know, I'm looking for a good tube pre at that price level. Thanks.

Hi Joe, I agree, as I said previously, that speakers, certainly by the standards of electronics, are not neutral. Speakers are the most crude of all audio equipment. Yet, there are speakers, even expensive ones, which can leave your ears bleeding following an audition while others can sound COMPARITIVELY smoother, more neutral, cleaner sounding, while produce better soundstage etc. I think you might have even mentioned one which I might stay away from, if I can use my audition of the Avalon Opus as any guide to how the Avalon Eidolons might sound. (I know that the Eidolons have a big reputation and a big price tag to match, but I would rely on my own ears exclusively.) I cannot say anything about the Eidolon's but the ~$14,000 Opus was NOT impressive, in my opinion. My point was that speakers which are bright, harsh, boomy or have any easily discernable character are those which I want to avoid, even if my system is in need of a little more life, detail, immediacy etc before considering the speakers. I'll make any adjustments with the cables. Hopefully the adjustments will be small, because I have chosen neutral, clean-sounding products. I think my strategy can be followed at any reasonable price point, from budget into the tens of thousands of dollars. I think that it will lead to a higher quality system than if you just split up the money allocating it to various components on a formula basis. I believe this because, amplifiers, preamplifiers as well as speakers have quite a deal of variability within and across price ranges. If you want to get the most and best for your money, you have hunt carefully, audition multiple times with different ancillary equipment and even then, you must really make a guess, unless you are lucky to bring the equipment under audition home for a month. I guess that I feel that most of the people who just want to allocate a certain amount of money to amps, speakers, preamps etc., are unlikely to make all the determinations which are necessary to get the most within their budget, since by using those rule-of-thumb allocation formulas, they have already given up a great deal of their discretion in creating a truly excellent system. I feel that those putting a large amount of money to speakers while simply buying generic budget amplifiers/preamplifiers will almost never achieve a truly distinctive system. That is not to say that there is not some great budget equipment available, but you have to choose charefully. I disagree that speakers are 75% of the sound. The amp and preamp are much, much more important than that. By the way, wasn't crazy about the BAT VK-5I as you don't seem to be so about the VK-3I. Maybe what your intention to get rid of it says is that, despite its reputation, it doesn't live up to your standards. I find that most products that I audition, including those with the big reputations, don't live up to my standards either.

I think your poor impression of the Opus has to do with the more flabby bass control, compared to the super-tight Avalon. The Avalon in my opinion is a speaker to die for. To your other points, I just find it hard to define "neutral" when it comes to speakers since to me all speakers sound very very differently. For instance, I have a strong preference for first order crossovers or single component units, in order to maintain the time and phase coherence which you get with live sound. However, I have heard well reasoned arguments (and some not well reasoned) that time coherence is irrelevant or just not worth its compromises. I have also heard some speakers I liked which were not time coherent (by the way a sloped baffle is not sufficient). I really like the sound of good electrostats, but recognize they have serious drawbacks which can detract from the musical pleasure. The list goes on and on, speakers are very faulty in general ! Particularly when compared to the good solid state amps of nowadays, in the sub $5,000 range, which include such marvels as the Bryston 4BST and 7BST, The Marsh 200 and 400, and the Gamut. Pick any of them and you'll have fine amplification. Pick any of the good CD players from Arcam, Naim, or if you have more dough Muse, Metronome or Levinson, and you'll do great. That is, unless you want to shoot for the stars in which case you'll ned to spend a boatload (i.e. 20-50K) on each component to get them to deliver what you are paying for, not to mention have the perfect listening room. To conclude, there may be some faulty speakers that you would discard right away, but again, I'm focusing on the decisions you make once your listening has narrowed down the choices. At that point I would recommend you pick a pair of speakers and start from there, because they'll determine (together with your room) 75% of how your system will sound. Naturally you will start by trying them with the electronics that made you like them, but from then on you can experiment with different electronics and that is easier than the other way around. Just my 2 cents, anyway !