Percentage to spend on Amp and Speakers

I guess there are many ways to achieve the same ends, and not to disrespect anyone else's opinion, but here would be my advice. Forget about formulas that tell you how to allocate your budget. Find one product which you fall in love with which gives you some of the best sound you have ever heard in a system which you have heard. Next, try to match this product with other products which mate well with the first product, but permit you to stay within budget. Those formulas are usually manufacturer or retailer attempts to justify that you purchase some expensive but poorly performing product. There really is not a high correlation between price and quality in high end audio. There are a number of inexpensive products which perform superbly, as well as many outrageously expensive products which perform either miserably or without distinction. If you use your wallet to make your decision as to what amp to get, using some formula based on what speaker you have already bought, you will be doing yourself a disservice. After appearing to overspend on speakers, you might determine that you found an inexpensive amp which mates very well with your speakers and is an exceptional performer in its price range. In this way, you can recover overspending on one product with another while still keeping yourself within budget. Of course you have to be reasonable and keep you eye on the bottom line because if you spend 80% of your budget on an amplifier, it is going to be difficult to purchase high quality companion products with only 20% of your budget. However, other than common sense budget issues, if you liberate yourself from allocation formulas, I believe you will end up with a higher quality system, but still at, or close to, budget. I also believe that you can start your search for appropriate products anywhere in the chain. It is important to assure yourself of the capability of the component. In other words, can this product completely satisfy you musically in a good system? If it is not quirky (present problems to surrounding products such as impedance mismatch, highly inefficient speakers etc.) and doesn't blow the budget, then buy it and start there. Otherwise, you might want to continue looking. Good luck.

Thanks, Trelja. I had read your posts and I find that you and I are generally in agreement as to the approach. I would just add that with regard to the order of purchasing products there really is no required order EXCEPT wire. Here is where you can look to use the sonic characteristics of the wire utilized to complement or correct hopefully slight frequency balance problems of the previously bought products. When the rest of the system is finalized is when I would start the search for interconnects, speaker cable and power cords.

I guess, Joe, you disagree with the order in which new components should be introduced into the system. I disagree with you that you have to follow any particular order. While I agree that speakers can be most significant in "voicing" a system, my objective is to not "voice" it. I am looking for the most neutral, uncolored, cleanest sounding products I can afford. If all of them are as neutral as I can find, the less chance I will have mating them together. Even so, in the final stages of putting together such a system, I agree that you are likely to find that there are some sonic artifacts which you might want to emphasize or deemphasize. If you have left the speakers to the end, I would still buy speakers which were generally quite neutral, but with a general balance and smoothness that I would find accurate and pleasing in any system in any room. When this speaker system was integrated into my system, I would try to deal with any shortcomings via the interconnects. This method allows you at least the chance of removing one component down the road and replacing it without destroying the sound quality you had originally. If there were any problems with room interactions, I would try to tune the system by moving the speakers. Small movements can sometimes achieve huge improvements in sound. If that proved unsuccessful, I guess I would try room treatment. Also, I think that you minimize the effect of electronics on sound. Different amps and preamps can make huge differences in the frequency balance as well as quality of the sound. I would say be especially careful of the preamp (if you have one, that is). The preamp is to me the heart of the system, since it provides most of the gain (particularly if phono is the source). A bad preamp in an otherwise great system is impossible to hide. A great preamp in an otherwise bad system is still an asset to the system. And what I said about preamps is true to a lesser degree with amps, but it is still true that power amps are very important to the overall sound. As proof that you don't have to do it your way, I am finishing up a system which I started with the preamp, then the amp and am choosing the speakers last, while retaining a 12 year old CD player. I don't claim it will be the best system in the world, but I don't believe that, when fininshed, it will give up all that much to systems which are much more expensive. Anyway, to me, speakers are the weakest link in the audio chain. They are the least refined and the most erratic of any of the audio components and for any need to "voice" or compensate for any upstream deficiencies, there must be at least 3 or 4 speaker brand alternatives. What is going to make the choice for me among those alternatives if I were interested in "voicing" are things like the speaker's bass response, midrange openness and clarity, lack of upper midrange harshness etc. ie. basic speaker performance criteria.

Hi Joe, I agree, as I said previously, that speakers, certainly by the standards of electronics, are not neutral. Speakers are the most crude of all audio equipment. Yet, there are speakers, even expensive ones, which can leave your ears bleeding following an audition while others can sound COMPARITIVELY smoother, more neutral, cleaner sounding, while produce better soundstage etc. I think you might have even mentioned one which I might stay away from, if I can use my audition of the Avalon Opus as any guide to how the Avalon Eidolons might sound. (I know that the Eidolons have a big reputation and a big price tag to match, but I would rely on my own ears exclusively.) I cannot say anything about the Eidolon's but the ~$14,000 Opus was NOT impressive, in my opinion. My point was that speakers which are bright, harsh, boomy or have any easily discernable character are those which I want to avoid, even if my system is in need of a little more life, detail, immediacy etc before considering the speakers. I'll make any adjustments with the cables. Hopefully the adjustments will be small, because I have chosen neutral, clean-sounding products. I think my strategy can be followed at any reasonable price point, from budget into the tens of thousands of dollars. I think that it will lead to a higher quality system than if you just split up the money allocating it to various components on a formula basis. I believe this because, amplifiers, preamplifiers as well as speakers have quite a deal of variability within and across price ranges. If you want to get the most and best for your money, you have hunt carefully, audition multiple times with different ancillary equipment and even then, you must really make a guess, unless you are lucky to bring the equipment under audition home for a month. I guess that I feel that most of the people who just want to allocate a certain amount of money to amps, speakers, preamps etc., are unlikely to make all the determinations which are necessary to get the most within their budget, since by using those rule-of-thumb allocation formulas, they have already given up a great deal of their discretion in creating a truly excellent system. I feel that those putting a large amount of money to speakers while simply buying generic budget amplifiers/preamplifiers will almost never achieve a truly distinctive system. That is not to say that there is not some great budget equipment available, but you have to choose charefully. I disagree that speakers are 75% of the sound. The amp and preamp are much, much more important than that. By the way, wasn't crazy about the BAT VK-5I as you don't seem to be so about the VK-3I. Maybe what your intention to get rid of it says is that, despite its reputation, it doesn't live up to your standards. I find that most products that I audition, including those with the big reputations, don't live up to my standards either.

Joe-Coherent: I found the Opus to have poor deep bass extension and a closed-in, but bright sound. When it was reviewed by the major mags, it was compared to the Eidolon and while they indicated the Eidolon was better, they did leave the feeling that the Opus delivered the same type of frequency balance and sonic character. I wanted to hear the Eidolon, but the salesman wouldn't even let me in that room since my budget for speakers couldn't even be pretended to stretch to that sum. I would choose many speakers over the Opus, whether they have first-order crossovers or not, at much cheaper prices, like the Vandersteen 3A Signature, Audio Physic Virgo, Vandersteen 5. I would even choose the budget, but, IMO, sonically compromised Hales Revelation 3 over the Opus. The Vandersteen 5 is the best speaker that I have personally heard. I hesitate to place any technology, such as requirement for first order crossovers before listening, as if it is one of the most significant factors in buildiing quality speaker systems, it should be instantly sonically recognizable. If it is not one of the most significant factors and I have prejudiced myself against systems without this technology, it will be very hard for me to accept a system which sounds good without it. As far as amps go, I like the Pass Aleph series and the Plinius SA-100. I haven't listened to the current Bryston's, but I have always found them too bright for my taste, but certainly a good class B amp. I would put the Pass Labs Aleph 4 and Aleph 2 significantly ahead, and the Plinius ahead of any Bryston I have heard. I have an Aleph 4. I am interested to hear the Marsh series of amps since I have heard lots of good things and they are not expensive. Among top preamps, I have heard and liked CAT SL-1 Ultimate, CAT SL-1 Signature, Audible Illusiions Modulus 3A, Ayre K-1 and K-3. I would listen to some of these before giving up on preamps. Also, you might want to check out the Hovland HP-100 and Aesthetix Callisto which supposedly compete in the ultimate preamp category. In the right systems, these can really sing. I have a CAT Ultimate and have compared it vs. going directly from my 12 year old Philips CD-80 into the Aleph 4. I definitely prefer the CAT in the system vs. going direct. Without the CAT, the system is "jumpy" and not refined. With the CAT, it is smooth and musical, dynamic with broad and deep soundstage. I think amps and preamps like these, while expensive, will significantly enhance many sound systems, working well with many speaker systems which can match with solid state electronics. I would feel comfortable mating this system with Vandersteen 5, Vandersteen 3A Signature or Gershman Acoustics RX-20 Avant Garde, for example, as the final piece of this system.