Kost
It all depends on setup. Just because the "factory rep" set them up doesn't mean a lot.
The rep may or may not know the store's gear, and may have setup a system that may or may not have worked for the speakers or for your tastes for any number of reasons.
Then you have the other variables which is the room's acoustics and the collection of gear that they have to work with.
The Persona are incredible speakers if you set them up correctly, one of the most important issues is system tuning. The Personas have a very neutral tonal balance, therefore, they tend to need warmer electronics to not sound sterile.
So perhaps the Personas you heard you might have really liked setup totally differently or perhaps not.
We have found that the Personas respond very favorably with Isoacoustics Gaia footers, add some of the Furutech NCF boosters to your system and just by adding those two items your tonal balance will be a bit on the fuller side.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Kosst,
Sorry you feel that way but there are way too many positive reviews and people who feel the way that we do that the Personas are amazing loudspeakers and represent some of the best sound for the money at their price points.
We have had a client come to our store demoed the Persona 9H and he said the system was spooky who real it sounded and was totally blown away by our setup.
I will give you a similar demoing experience. Personally we feel that the current Wilson lineup are good but not exceptional loudspeakers and whose models are ridiculously overpriced for the money in terms of what you are actually getting for the price point in terms of driver quality and technology.
I have heard many expensive Wilson setups at shows and at stores including one setup that was with XLF, Dagastino, DCS Vivladi and Nordost Odin that system was close a million dollars and it sounded absolutuly awful heard that setup in a famous Washington area store.
Lo and behold heard a similar but less expensive setup this weekend with Wilson Alex, Nordost Odin, Krell mono blocks, Krell preamp and Vpi new $15k table and $8k phono cartridge and it was magical with realistic sized images and a very three dimensional sound stage this system had room lock and was expertly setup and voiced by a very respected setup guru.
Kosst, the point is polarizing products are polarizing for a reason, if some people love product x while others do not, and the reviews are all very positive then it is totally possible the store, doesn't know what they are doing with the product or that even if they are setup correctly the product isn't for you.
Some people look for a musical setup that we would say sounds muted or unnaturally warm and romantic, while others crave detail, speed and articulation that real live music has.
Too many systems sound like systems and not like real music, real live music especially brass instruments, and high hats tend to sound bright and harsh, go to a live wedding and see if you can tolerate the sound of a live band with horns and brass, especially when played a normal room size and distances.
Please describe the size of the room and what gear this store was using.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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As per Ctsooner comment about Rockport, totally disagree, and we like Rockport speakers alot.
Over the years we have heard numerous Rockport setups some where very good, while others were extremely disappointing which did not do justice to the loudspeakers.
A really transparent speaker system will show exactly how it is being setup and driven, the Rockport is voiced warmer then the Personas so CT who likes warmer loudspeakers will find them more enjoyable no matter what the setup is as the speakers will usually sound good no matter how they are setup.
Certain loudspeakers designs will sound good no matter what the setup is while others are very picky and tend to sound more bad then good unless all the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed.
Heard the Vandy 7 at Capital Audio Fest and they sounded very good but were hardly a contender for any best sound awards at that show.
Now I know that CT is going to say they are the greatest speakers in the world and when they are setup correctly will blow away the Alexx that I heard at the show, which in our opinion was one of the best setups at that show and we sell none of the gear in that room by the way!
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
No CT you can post whatever you like, the point is that your always stating that Vandy model whatever is always the best sounding, time coherent, blather is just like the Tekton guys always extolling their speaker as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
We have heard Personas sound good, and bad, and just okay, the point was that the Vandy 7 which is probably the only Vandy speaker that if we were ever to sell Vandy we would actually really get behind in this setup sounded okay not good not bad but not inspiring enough for the price of the speaker and quite frankly the room was way too big for the Vandys was probably part of the problem.
We also acknowledge that the Persona will not be for everyone, any uber transparent speaker will ruthlessly show you flaws and are very setup dependent, over the years we have catagorized loudspeakers as uber high resolution camp which are super demanding, vs drop and plop speakers which usually sound decent to good no matter what you play them with, Harbeths are a perffect example, so are Vandy 1C and 2Ce.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
As you guys know we are big Persona dealers. Djones comments are mirrored by our findings.
We set up last night Persona 3f first on a Naim Uniti Nova sounded very good, but not amazing then switched to the higher end Naim Nac 272 250Dr combo a $13k set and boy did the speakers come alive.
The setup sounded like a much more expensive rig. The Naim has a tight punchy bass, a warm midrange.
If you want to be amazed listen to this combo.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Lets look at the issue which you guys aren't factoring in which is dealer cost. The Grills cost $200 or so to make which means they cost Paradigm approx $100 each grill times 2 for a pair = a cost of $200 they are now going to mark them up to make a profit and then the dealer is going to mark them up to make a profit and boom you have expensive grills.
The Paradigm Grills for the Personas are really well made.
Builder you should leave on your electronics 24/7 one they will sound better and two they will last longer. The inrush of current to an electronics device is what causes failure, there are radio stations using gear built 25 years ago that are still working due to this fact.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
What do you think it costs them to make a set of well made grills, you have to make the frame, stretch fabric and cure the glues, then you have to package the grills, Do you honestly think that a large company you are not paying for overhead and labor costs.
Please see if you can make a set of grills including fabric, glues, frame materials, packaging materials and your time for less then $200 unless you are not paying yourself anything try to make two perfect grills yourself especially ones that are as nicely finished as the Personas grills.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
riovendale, what was the dealers using for the setup?
If you use them with the wrong electronics they are going to sound like what you describe the Persona's are a much more detailed type of sound then all the other loudspeakers you mentioned we sell the Kef LS 50 and the Kef R11 which definately are a much more laid back sounding product.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Kef and Persona dealers |
Rivionale what's your agenda? You pick on the Persona yes which in the Stereophile measurements has a few peaks and valleys just checked review measurements on $130k Sonus Faber Aida https://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-aida-loudspeaker-measurements notice is it also not flat and has peaks and valleys accross its frequncey range A $70k pair of Vandersteen 7 MK II have dips in most of their high frequency range and a trough in some of the lower frequencies https://www.stereophile.com/content/vandersteen-model-seven-mkii-loudspeaker-m7-hpa-monoblock-power-...A pair of $58k Wilson Alexia MK 2 https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-alexia-series-2-loudspeaker-measurement... I see depressions in the top end and a hump in the lower bass frequencies. I guess all of these speakers must sound bad based on their measurements what is clear is that none of these speakers measure flat all are higly respected loudpseakes what is clear is that loudspeakers either have rising top ends or top ends with depressions, gee guess what a speaker with a duller top end will sound warmer and one with a high frequency peak will sound brighter. Please Rivonale show me one highly lauded speaker system measured by Stereophile which actually measures flat? The art of a good setup is the ability to mix room acoustics, components and source gear into a well balanced sounding system. Taking one part of the equation out of the entirity of a setup demonstrates nothing but ignorance. If you have a brighter speaker add more absorptave material which could be acoustic panels or pillows. If your speakers sound too dull add brighter cabling or sources take out overally absorptave materials and add eq if possible. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
You ever listen to a pair boring, boring, boring. |
Ditto Benzman, we just demoed a pair of the Persona 3F at a clients house, and the results were very interesting.
We came to his house and he had a Classe Cap 2100 a very good and respected 2010? integrated amp with a Bluesound Node2 Monster Cables and a set of Dali Helicon 1.
Decent sound but no real image width or depth and the sound was very cloudy.
We then added a great dac T+A Dac 8 DSD and a set of real cables to the mix, bigger soundstage, greater detail.
Then we added in power conditoner and power cables and the sound of the Dali's was very good finally got a good image floating in space
Now we chaged to the Persona 3F clarity better soundstage beter but the bass on the Dali was better.
Swapped out the crappy $300 Monster Cable with a set of Wireworld Silver Eclipse and boom sounded like a totally different system, huge soundstage, good image float, everything was improved.
Then we swapped in the Personas and the transparency was breathtaking but we all missed some of the Dali richness.
Took our a $13k Naim stack of amp/preamp and boom Personas now had deeper bass and everything was radically improved things floated in space and the midrange was richer and now they sounded like a $20k speaker not ones that sell for $10k.
Go hear the Personas with Naim it is a fantastic combo.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona and Naim dealers |
Prof setup is key and that obviously includes the room.
Again in the example sited above, the same room and listening postion, different equipment and cabling and the Persona speakers sounded exceptional or just okay dependong on the gear setup the room and listening position didn't change only the gear, and that was the critical take away, the room does make a difference the equipment is as important if not more so.
We are not saying that the room doens’t make a difference it does, but without the right gear the speakers will not sound good no matter what..
System one: Classe Cap 2100 Blue Sound Node crappy Monster cables original Dali Helicons sounded great, Personas better in some way not better in others.
1: Add Dac and real cabling big improvment in clarity, soundstaging.
2: Replaced crappy speaker cables with better cabling and again huge improvement.
3: Still similar outcomes the Personas didn’t sound way better than just different.
4: Switched out electronics and boom magic on the Personas.
Yes fortunately or unfortunately expensive cabling, dacs, electronics make a huge difference and can make or break a particular set of loudspeakers, and in this demo the room was the same in ordinary Living Room, no treatments etc,
Rivondale, just switching out one variable can mean that your amplifier might not sound good with a particular set of loudspeakers.
We had a client come into the shop with a Belles Aria which makes a great match with Vandy’s plays the same amp on the Kef’s and the Unision Research Primo blew it away in most areas.
It is all about synergy, when demoing just one product you must be aware that sometimes if you like certain aspects of a systems sound you may need to change your electronics, cabling, or source components until you create the right balance.
Prof1 high end audio is more like high end cooking it is finding ingredients which work to balance out each other.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Mofojo, did you notice that Revel changed the tweeter from Titanium to Beryillium in the later incarnation of the Salon's did you ever wonder why, also there are very few people talking about them so if they were the class leader they would be generating a lot more excitement on these boards.
Bill_K you missed our point entirely, yes an anchoic room has no reflections and are designed to allow for good measurements.
If you design a speaker with a rising top end it may mean that the designers felt that the speakers would sound more exciting for one, for two many audiophiles who are older have dips in their hearing and three many audio room are Living Rooms with lots of absorbtative furniture.
Would the Personas or any other super clean loudspeakers sound good in a sparsely furnished room probably not, the demo we did with the 3F was in a large room it had carpeting and drapes, and big couches and the 3F on the Naim gear sounded fantastic in that room without a lick of hardness.
Remember one persons bright is another person's detailed and alive, one person's musical is another persons's dull and lifeless.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Science cop how come then so many people find them to be absolutely fantastic when paired with the right electronics, I guess they must sound bright and coarse, in our setup with the T+A and Naim electronics the speakers sound fantastic.
Measurements in an anchoic chamber do not guarantee results in the real world.
In a real world envionrment you will generally have absorbtave materials which will tame the top end with the result of a balanced sound in the actual listening room.
So perhaps if you have a super spartan room these speakers may not be for you.
Conversely a speaker which might measure flat to slightly rolled off in an anchoic room may sound completely dull in a real world enviornment.
Take your pick. It is easier to absorb excess energy it is nearly impossible to add more clarity to a dull sounding loudspeaker.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Grgr4blu, we were the dealer at the New York show they did sound good for the money, if you were off access perhaps they sounded a bit bright but give us a break it was still a hotel room, you actually said something nice and yes you can tame them with the right stuff they definately need warmer solid state like Dag or T+A gear or good tubes.
Greginnh, we have a very different approach then your dealer who I know who it is,found pictures on their website you don’t remember we talked once before about the T+A gear and knowing you have the Gato gear and figuring out this dealer sells Luxman, Naim they jut got the line, Paradigm and Kef it wasn’t difficult.
Our demo room with the 9H uses echo buster panels on the walls behind the speakers, shakti hollographs, acoustic system resonators, stein harmonizers, a critical mass rack and center stage footers, Furutech NCF boosters, Audio magic power conditioning, Enklekin cabling and T+A electronics with a Light Harmonic Davinci Dac being fed by a $15k Baetis server.
Our approach is to use room tuning products, cabling, power conditioners and source components to bring out the qualities we want and amelerorate the qualties we don’t. There is an art to tunning.
We can also demonstrate that removing these items one by one totally destroys the sound, and it is not just the Personas all high resolution systems benefit from footers, racks, room tuning devices etc.
Also our main demo room is 26 by 20 with 10 foot ceiling, don’t think your dealer has a single room of that size.
Yes our Persona 9H is pretty magical especially on the Davinci which although is a $35k dac is one of the most remarkable front end imaginable.
Greginnh you are welcome to come visit us if you are in the area and see for yourself. This is a true reference system that to our ears betters many $300k systems, the only thing it lacks it the image size of a much larger speaker system. We have had many customers who have said this system is spooky in its reacreation of an event.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Wcfeil if you read the post from the customer who we flew to CA to tune his system before you and your negative attacks caused the post to be taken down.
We totally transformed his sound from ok to something very special through a cable change, a dac change footers stein harmonizer power conditioning and power cables.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Ricred1 you have talked with us and you know we call em like we hear em.
In our previous posts we have praised speakers we don't sell including Rockports and recently at the Capital Audio Fest heard the $110k Wilsons and was blown away by their sound on the Krell elelctronis.
What is interesting is you have so many guys like Sciencecop harping on the speakers measurements and not at all of the reviewers who have praised the sound of the system.
As we mentioned we just did a demo Persona 3F on a Naim stack and the sound was amazing in a real room without acoustical treatment, we changed just the electronics from the Classe Cap 2100 with the T+A Dac 8DSD, to a Naim NAC 272 preamp/dac/streamer plus a NAP 250 power amplifier and the sound went from decent to amazing on the Persona.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Ricredi if you notice some of our posts we praise speakers we don't sell and give a reason why we don't carry other particular models. In the case of the Revel Salons they are nice speakers but we feel the Kef Blades are even better after hearing them at several places over the years. As per Magico in one discussion we said we were intrigued by the A3 but so far only heard them once and did not like that pairing that means it might have been the setup and not the speakers we have yet to pass a true judgement on the A3, the Magico M7 at Goodwins was a decent demo but way too expensive for the sound they were getting. As per Sciencecop saying we never heard really expensive Magico's at Goodwins I guess they are selling air aren't they https://superphonica.com/all-products/speakers/full-size-speakers/magico-q7-mk2/We have said many times it is the pairing of room acoustics, cabling, electronics sources and accessories, that work to create magic in a room with the Personas or any other set of loudspeakers. We have heard Personas sound terrific or bad depending on what they were being used with and how they were setup. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Contuzzi never sold Ricredi anything.
Why would we advocate Ricredi change from one $30k set of speakers to another?
We recomended Ricredi change from rowland to a different electronics because-the new Monitor audios Amt tweeter is more recessed than the first gen and Jeff Rowlands gear is a bit rolled sounding.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
No Rivionale, you miss our points entirely. It is not that a $10k set of Personas needs a lot of tweeking to sound good, but they do like, and respond well to using the right cominbation of electronics. ,
The point made with all the tweeks are being used in our $150k reference system which although is quite expensive the performance in many areas matches or beats systems that we have heard that were $300k and above in price range.
In the example we sited above Persona 3F at a client's home with a normal Living Room, a circa 2008 $5,000.00 Classe Cap 2100 intergrated amplifier, with the $4k T+A amp, and a set of Wirworld Gold Eklipse Interconnects $1,600.00 and a set of Wireworld Silver Eclipse speaker Cables $3,500.00 plus 2 AQ power cords and an Audio Magico Power conditioner the Personas sounded good but not magical, we changed to a $13k Naim stack which includes a preamp with a built in dac and streamer, same everything else the speakers sprang to life and sounded amazing. Same room, same cabling, same speakers just with different electonics and the sound was extraordinary, without a hint of brightness, huge soundstage, deep bass, a great natural midrange.
We preach that it is a system approach you have to have the right combination of products working together.
You are right there are easier audio products which can be just dropped into place and sometimes you can get pretty good results, generally these are the warmer and more forgiving designs which may not ever sound bright, but can sound rolled off and sluggish to other listeners.
Good luck to you Riovionale.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Cmsgold you miss our points entirely, It is not about patting our selves on the back it is stating a simple reality.
We visit a lot of dealers all over the country and there are good dealers with matching equipment, to showcase expensive loudspeakers and there are ones that do not.
That is also not to say that everyone has dialed in systems that are expensive some of these systems don't sound that great while other ones do.
As per issues with us we get numerous calls a week with people who report that are posts are helpful and illuminating.
In another thread about servers we stated a simple fact we sell FIVE different brands of servers, do you not think that gives us a broader perspective than a dealer who only sells one brand of servers?
We are always testing new brands of gear and new models to better serve our clients.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Cmsgolf your loss, we have plenty of clients who love us.
As per another dealer, lets face the reality, many of the stores that sell high end loudspeakers have poor setups either they don’t have a good sound room or they lack the kinds of gear that would be used with this level of loudspeaker for whatever reason they are not investing in the rest of the gear to really demonstrate these speakers correctly up to their full potential.
How do we know, we visit other dealers a lot of them, we heard the Personas in a two Massachusettes dealers, one was a decent high end shop who was playing on his best amp at the time which was a $3k Musical Fidelity integrated with $500 worth of cabling, this dealer sells mostly midfi systems.
The other dealer is a major on line dealer who has one cramped high end sound room with the speakers all crammed in the back wall of a way too small room their setup was a $2k Parasound amplifier on a NAD Masters preamp dac a $4k preamp, not exactly what you would expect fronting $35k loudspeakers.
There are some really good Paradigm dealers and many not so good ones we have seen the same issues with B&W, and KEF dealerships as well, they postion there products with dealers that can move a lot of product not necessarily the ones that have the commitment to really showcasing expensive loudspeakers correctly.
Again we went to this dealers website the setup was not up to snuff for a $35k loudspeaker, that is not our fault that is the dealers.
Unless their current setup is very different from their website photos you have the 9H and the 5F parked right aside each other in a room with a large cabinet in the middle, no room treatment is visible.
Were they using power conditoning, what was the quality of their cables? etc.
We play the Personas with all the right kinds of gear and setup methodology, we do not have another set of speakers right next to the Pesonas, we do have a single narrow audio rack it is from Critical Mass so it is designed to absorb energy from the components and it is open on all surfaces, we use high end cabling, we use high end power conditioning, we use very high end electronics which are even better than the Anthem electronics, from Krell, and T+A, Electrcompaniet, Conrad Johnson, we use suitable high end digital a Baetis reference server with an Aqua Hifi dac or a Lumin streamer. etc.
Our open invitation has been taken up by people from Maryland as well as a gentleman from the Midwest who wanted to auditon the Kef Blades, Kef Rerence 5s, the Personas and the Legacys.
If the OP was to visit us and visit all the New York dealers he could in one trip could hear almost every major electronics and speaker manufacuturers in a weekend that is what being in a major metropolitian area gets you.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Great comments Dvdboulet, yes it about synergy. Your post was very illuminating wouldn't it have been nice if some of those dealers actually had your equipment on display, might have made it easy?
Your comments, We all know that gear matters... and can matter a lot. Most of us have been around long enough and have changed enough components in our system over time to know that some $$$ gear can make or break a system... and what sounds fabulous in one system can degrade the sound of another. It’s all about the synergy.
Yes our point exactly we have worked very hard to tune our Persona reference system with just the right components to make it sound fantastic, and when we were demoing electronics we tried many different brands of gear, including Devialet, Electro, CJ, Thrax, before picking the T+A gear as our choice for true reference gear, fired up the Krell today and it does seem excellent especially for the money.
Your experiences mirror our experiences with the Personas and certain other loudspeakers they sound okay on certain setups and magical on others and sometimes the two setups are the same price sometimes not.
The issue that we were trying to highlight was not that we are necessarily better than other dealers, it is our commitment to creating memorable sound systems may be a bit different, hence we experiment with different power conditoners, cables, source components, vibration isolation devices, etc until we have the sound that we find magical and hopefully that is what our clients like as well.
When we say we use some of these devices it is to illustrate the lengths we have gone to maximize the systems we are displaying, it is a process creating great sound and if you think that many dealers actually play with or believe that these types of devices work look at many of the stores setups and see.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Guys Persona dealer, let me explain the program, first it is not a mandatory program the dealer may or may not want to offer this program.
Two the dealer will not go above the 20% as the dealer is not getting 20% off from Paradigm, we actually make less money with these programs the deal does work to bring in new clients which helps offset the program.
We have very different opinions on the Anthem STR integrated vs Contuzzi, we have the STR integrated and the STR amp and preamp in the same room.
The STR intergrated is very good, but it is not as warm and full bodied as the separates which totally outperform the integrated amplifier.
In our tests the Anthem STR is outclassed by the Micromega and the Naim gear, if you like a clean punchy sound without a lot of additional midrange warmth the STR is your amplifier if you prefer more warmth and body then the other pieces are better. The STR is fantastic value and we are not talking about the effects of room correction which may push the STR integrated into a different catagory just sound of one vs another under identical conditions.
We will agree that the Anthem STR amp and Preamp are a fantatic value.
We will be testing the STR power amp vs the Coda and the Krell more extensively in the weeks ahead.
Our initial impressions are the Krell power amplifier is more magical but less powerful same with the Coda, the Anthem power amplifier is a little flat sounding, but excells in terms of punch and it is quite smooth.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Krell, Anthem, Coda and Paradigm Dealers |
Yysantabarbera, remember we have been saying right from the get go that these speakers are very amplifer sensitive and when used with the right stuff they sound magnificent and in many way outperform speakers that are way more expensive.
When we were setting up our 9H we tried numerous combinations of electronics, digital and power conditioners before we hit magic.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona, Coda, Krell, Anthem dealers |
Benzeman, great to hear, it is nice to have pro Persona guys on these posts rather than the naysayers who have never heard a set of the Paradigm's setup correctly with the right gear.
As we keep on saying, you have to inject some warmth into the system to get the speakers to sound more enjoyable, they are very clean loudspeakers so a bit of euphonic coloration somewhere in the chain makes them work really well.
Hence our prefered electronics T+A, Krell, Naim all tend to sound rich, the Aqua Digital is rich, and the Light Harmonic Davinci is lush but with good detail.
When paired with the right gear the little 3F sound more like a $20k set of speakers then a $10k one, put some isoacoustics footers on em and watch em fly!
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Paradigm dealers |
Csmgolf, the setup did not sound bright at all, compared to other speakers the Persona's had far greater clarity then the Kef R series which we also demoed.
Yes it is true these are not laid back speakers they are however remarkably transparent, fast and accurate and so if you prefer a warmer more recessed sound then this kind of accuracy will not be for you.
We also demoed the 3F with the more expensive Naim NAC 272 dac and preamp and a 250dr, and then we added the XPS 2 power supply and the system started to sound really magnificent.
In retrospect the demo was a bit flawed on the higher end Naim as we could not use Roon directly into the NAC 272 and had to use another streamer with an spdif cable to play the test files which were storred on a usb thumb drive.
Also there is a way to change the sound quality radically on the Naim Uniti products if you are using Naim which is to ouput your PCM files as DSD which the Uniti can handle and boom now you have the elevated midrange and softer top end of DSD decoding we didn't do that either.
Normally our demos last for 2-3 hours this demo was a bit brief so we didn't even scratch the surface of what we can do and how we can tune the speakers to match someone's taste.
There is also a huge range of gear to choose from in our shop, we started with the Naim Uniti for one reason which we Mr. Hofer also heard the Wilson Sabrinas on the same amplifier.
We never went to the Krell K300i which is a very warm integrated nor did we listen to the Antem STR amp/preamp combo which also sounds really outstanding on the Anthem.
You are welcome to visit our shop and see for yourself
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Paradigm Persona, Krell, Naim, Anthem dealers
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Actually Cmsgolf, bright can be very accurate, if your recording for example was from, Deustshe Graphaphon, and made in the mid 80's or a Telarc, digital recording in the mid 80's tended to sound bright due to the digital encoders and mixing consoles at the time, and they sound bright on the playback that is accurate as those are the sound of those recordings.
You also failed to understand that even if the gentleman found them "bright" we can tune that out by something as simple as a playback change in Roon.
We did not have the time to really go into and explore changes that can be made by playing with different gear and software changes which affect playback.
The demo was a bit rushed and we started with a different set of speakers before switching to the Personas and then we swtiched electronics, we encouraged Mr. Hofer to come back for a much greater extended session where we can play a wider variety of tracks on different gear.
And as hell is freezing over, we are agreeing with grgr4blu on something and he is acutally being nice, that Mcintosh tends to sound warm and veiled a bit, and that Mcintosh or similarly voiced electronics, actually Naim sounds a bit like that in a good way are the keys to making the Personas sound good.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers
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Trudat, your point is quite erronuous. We sell Kef, Dali, Legacy, Cabasse, ATC, Elac, and Retheym these are all great loudspeakers each has a different personality.
There are classes of loudspeakers which are more accurate and more detailed and there are those that are warmer and more recessed in the treble.
Your presumption is that you just change loudspeakers, no you change whatever you need to with any loudspeakers to bring out the results you are trying to accheive.
It all comes down to setup if you have a speaker which the listener perceives as a brighter sound and they love the clarity but find it is too much then you alter the cabling, electronics, digital, processing etc to tune the speaker so the clarity remains but the top end is a bit wamer, hence we tend to recommend the Naim, Krell, T+A, or Anthem electronics with the Paradigms.
The corrollary is also true if you have a wamer loudspeaker, Dali, Legacy they tend to pair very well with brighter electronics: Musical Fidelity, Nad M32, Anthem STR.
Mentioned that Mr. Hoffer did not leave us with a lot of time to explore how we can tune the Personas, also we did not evaluate a lot of different recordings mostly the ones on his thumb drive. Given a bit more time even a simple software settinng in Roon can totally add more wamth to the sound of the Personas it is really that simple.
Yes there will be people who will not like that much clarity, if you prefer the vocing of a Harbeth or a Vandersteen or any other loudspeaker which tends to have a softer presentation you most likely will not like the Persona.
Mr. Hofer’s comment that a $10k Persona was very close compeition to a $17k set of Wilsons does show that the 3F are an outstanding value, you can do a lot of tuning with $7k now can’t you?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers
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Dear Mr. Hofer you were a pleasure to have at the shop, and demo the Kef's and the Paradigms for you.
Love to have you come back for a more extended demo where we can show you some ways of warming up the Personas with Roon and you should also listen to the new Krell K300i it is an awesome amp with the Personas. The Krell is really warm and full bodied so you might appreciate what that combo brings to the table.
Just by making a couple of changes we can add a bit more warmth to the Personas which just might make them rich enough for you.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona Dealers
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Cmsgolf, really don’t know why you have this evangelical hatred of the Persoanas.
We are not so powerful as to make Mr. Hofer or anyone purchase anything from us that they don’t like, sorry not going to happen.
The reality is that many people here have heard the 3F really like them. Yes it is irksome that they do not measure flat, it is possible that the Persona’s engineers felt that many listeners rooms would be over damped and this would compensate the other thing is that with Anthem Room correction a flat response can be assured in the room.
Even without room corection we have found that the speakers are not overally bright in real rooms. We have several clients with the 3F in real apartments and homes and so far all of our clients have been absolutely thrilled with their 3Fs..
Also having studied meansurements on many other highly rated speakers many of them are highly rolled of in the top end, so you can have it both ways you can have a dip in treble or a peak either way it isn’t flat,
All loudspeakers have a sound and yes Cmgolf with the right tweeks we can add warmth to a set of speakers, footers, power cabling, software processing can totally change the sound of a loudspeaker.
Do you wonder why Vandersteen’s are often paired with Ayre? Could it be that Vandys tend to sound overally warm and Ayre is a bit on the neutral to slightly tipped side of neutral?
Mr. Hoffer can purchase whatever he likes but in fairness a quick demo of the Personas does not allow us the time to play with the variables that can change the way they sound in ways that can add additional warmth and alter their tonal balance.
Loudspeakers are like any other decision they all have their particular sound and all loudspeakers can be tuned to match a listeners perferences.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
What I find so facinating is the villification of the Personas from certain posters here, because they have a bump in the high end vs the scores of other high end loudspeakers which have a pronounced dip in the top end.
So therefore a speaker which is bright is bad but a loudspeaker that has a rolled off top end is not villified or pronunced being bad for sounding dull?
Lets remember that a high hat or cymbol crashes, if you reproduce those instruments without having the realisim of what those instruments actually sound like and make them sound unnaturally smooth is that better reproduction?
In terms of what benzman and a few others have said, you can add asorpative material, or use components which are warmer to tone down a speaker which is perceived as bright but how can you add detail to a speaker which is rolled off?
The sound of the Personas when setup correctly is pretty special are they for everyone don't think so, but when played with the right gear they sound more like a $20k speaker for the $10k 3F and the $35k 9H can easily compete with a $58k pair of Wilsons.
We would also question Rivondale's testing methodology who says that is Schitt amplifier is good enough to drive the Personas, what cables were used, what source? There is so much more to setting up a world class sound system then arbittarily trying amp A with speaker B, maybe with his Schitt amplifier a dac or source change might have been required.
We would welcome anyone in the area to visit our shop and hear our setups with the Personas.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Ricred1 I think the point that Maplegrove is making is that there are a whole bunch of guys that jump on the "its too bright camp" while there are many others that don't make the same stink about a speaker which is rolled off and if you look at many of the measurements in Stereophile you can find many, many reference loudspeakers which have a recessed top end one really expensive loudspeaker had that and had a huge peak in the lower mid bass frequencies and that was a $125k set of loudspeakers.
We agree with you that there are a lot of great loudspeakers we sell the Kefs, the Legacys and the Dalis as our main loudspeakers lines and they are all excellent and suitable for different listeners.
Our point about the Personas which would also apply to any of the uber high resoloution designs, like Rahido or Magico is that when you have this low a level of coloration or a driver that has uber clarity you are challenged with adding a bit of warmth somewhere in the chain.
Rivondale sounds like one of those guys who have never played with power cables or footers or tuning accessories which can alter the sound in ways that can be very beneficial in bringing out the things you are trying to accheive.
Dep14 we apply a methodical method of tunning. We try many different brands of electronics, multiple digital front ends, cabling, power conditioners to the mix unti we get the sound we are looking for.
In the case of the Persona 3F that room has 54 different components in it is you took out the four pieces of surround sound gear and two headphone amps and a Zenith streamer that would leave you with 47 possible pieces of gear to play with from cheapie $1k integrated amplifiers up to a $30k Naim stack. we have high end intergrated amplifiers from NAD, Musical Fidelity, Micromega, Naim, Krell, Anthem, Sythesis, as well as CJ, Cary, Anthem, Electrcompaniet and Coda separates, so we can create a very different sound depending on which particular set of gear is being played.
For that reason alone we wanted to be able to play with some different gear for Mr. Hoffer.
You would be shocked to see how many stores just hookup what they have in one room to a set of speakers, meaning if they have ARC in that room which may sound great with a pair of different speakers that are also in the room, that is what they play, you won't necessarily see sales guys saying we need to move in a pair of blank amplifiers from another room or change dacs or cables sometimes you do but many times you don't.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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There is a difference between a dealer who is not supposed to discount a product that highly, vs a manufactuer.
In the case of Paradigm they routinely offer promotions, they are a very large company and can afford to do so. The dealer is getting something off of their invoice so it makes the sale more palitable.
As per routinely offering high discounts, most dealers will not and those that do can lose their franchises, also it depends on the product certain very high end loudspeakers, not Kef nor Paradigm, but have a higher than standard profit margin which allows for more discounting if that dealer wants to flaunt what they are actually supposed to offer their clients.
Hope that clairfys this issue.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
Pwinson, didn't realize I was talking with you the other day here is our coaching for you.
You would be silly not to jump on the 9H now during the sale. What you are dealing with is a topic near and dear to our hearts which is product tuning.
No loudspeaker on the market at any price will be perfect to a listener and trying to duplicate the sonic fingerprint of your Thiel is not possible, as they were unique designs the same as a Rockport or a Wilson of a Focal etc and the Personas are superior speakers to your Thiels not to mention that Thiel is out of business it is a great idea to upgrade to a more modern design from a company that is in business.
As I mentioned to you, sold Thiels for three years and personally knew Kathy and Jim.
The people on this forum would have you believe that the "issues" you have with the Personas are due to their frequency abberititions and you have to be stuck with them.
The reality is we too have seen the heaven and hell of this design, the heaven is that the speakers are totally tranparent, fast, articulate and sometimes spooky how real they can sound.
The hell particularly with the 9H is that they can still sound a bit cool and lacking a bit of warmth in the midrange which imparts a slightly sterile quality to the upper midrange, which is what we think you are not liking.
If you contact Fast, or read the threads we participated in in regards to his Kef Ref 5, you will see that we applied a series of fixes to his system which made his Kef Ref 5's come alive.
These included adding footers to the speakers, a change in interconnects, ethernet cable and usb cabling, a change in music server, adding a power conditioner, changing his dac, adding power cables, and finally a room tuning product, along with reposoitioning his loudspeakers.
The end result of all of this in our opinion his newly tweeked up and augmented setup outperformed a local audio retailors $300k plus setup,
Fast's setup had really old 20+ year old ARC gear, and the speaker cables were not changeable as they were run under the floor, the result of adding a better dac, $6k, a new server $3.4k cabling $6k for the interconnects, $700 usb, $210 ethernet cabling, footers $1,200.00 $4k room tuning Stein Harmonizers, $5k power conditioning, and $4k power cords
Yes all of those parts when added up would not be cheapie additions the point of this story is that even with all of these parts added and a retunning of the speakers in the room created a sound which bettered a $300k rig that would still be money well spent to create the sound which in Fasts room was magnificent, and he too was having the buyer's remorse conversation that his speakers werent sounding right or the way he wanted to before we started working with him.
Fast did not get all of the parts we demoed, he did change his cables, and added a server, he has not yet upgraded his dac, nor power system, and has not gotten the footers or Stein products.
The additions that he did do made a huge difference in transforming his sound, we have left it up to him to go as far as he wants to in the way that he wants to go.
There are a few items you can do to add a bit more warmth in the midrange with the Personas, without spending a lot of money:
the Furutech NCF boosters believe it or not added a nice touch of additonal warmth, a change in power cords and the right power conditioner can also help, one of our favorite conditioners is $3k,
Critical Mass footers are amazing a single set applied to the right component can produce some mind blowing improvements, from $1k a set to $2,800.00
the Iso Acoustics footers can be had for $210 dollars per component and can be used under the preamp, dac, and amp for some very audible improvements, not quite as amazing as the Critical Mass devices however, they produce some remarkable results for not much money, lastly the new ARC Genesis program will allow you to alter the low freq curve which will add some additional warmth to the speakers.
A product which is as transparent as the Personas will require you to do a bit of work they are not a drop and plop type of speaker, they will require you to make a series of changes to tune them to suit your taste some of the additions are not expensive.
If you heard our display system you would know just how remarkable the speakers can sound.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers
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Gene Isoacoustics makes adapters that work with the Persona we have both are 3F and the 9H with the footers and each set made a signifigent improvement in the sound.
Contuzzi the footers absolutely make a difference on all loudspeakers including very inert ones.
The footers stop side to side motion and cordinate the speakers with the movement of the cones in that plane only.
Isoacoustics website shows testing documentation which proves the product does indeed work.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Isoacoustics and Persona dealers |
Nabcs, the issue with Townshend is that they would be very difficult to demo there are very few Townshend dealers in the USA vs Isoacoustics which are much easier to demo also the Townshend are way more expensive than $1,200.00 for both speakers for the Isoacoustics aren't they?
Which one is more effective we don't know, the Isoacoustics stuff is great and we have yet to have a client ever not comment that they heard a meaningfull difference after getting a set.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Isoacoustics and Persona dealers |
The Isoacoustics footers replace the stock footers the difference in height is negligible the sonic improvement is vastly better.
Also the 96db efficiency is what is causing you to be aware of the noise more than an 86db efficient loudspeaker.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona and Isoacoustics dealers
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steve59 we have a $7,500.00 integrated amp which includes a dac which drives the 9H to perfection. It is a tube amp. This amplifier is one of the best we have found for an affordable solution to making the Personas have that bit of warmth that will make them sound alive and just gives them that extra dose of tube body that the speakers crave. Synthesis A 100T http://synthesis.co.it/product.php?id=32Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Sythesis audio dealers |
The rear bass drivers based on their design are vibration cancelling by working in concert with the front drivers.
The purpose of them is to provide additonal bass output and to vent the rear bass wave around the rear of the speakers to better allow for the correction curve to work optimally.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers
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Pwinson,
you should also look at cabling, and power conditioning what about room tuning any treatments? Can you post pictures of your setup?
What cables are you using? Are you using power cables? Are you using power conditioning? Vibration isolation can also make a huge improvment.
As we have said time and time before the Personas are very rewarding loudspeakers when used with the right stuff.
We have a client using the Persona 9H with the T+A HV series integrated amplifier and we did a comparison of his Steinway playing a piece vs the system reproducing the same piece, the system was very close to the sound of the the live piano.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers
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Pwinson, the Maggies have an entirely different set of issues.
The Personas do require the right matching equipment and some care in setup, it is entirely possible that your room and matching gear wasn't right.
We had some trade in Maggie's here and they suffer from a number of different issues:
1: The soundstage is big but very diffusive
2: Image size if too large for smaller ensemble groups and singers the Maggies make the people appear too large
2: Dynamics aren't very good
3: Bass response isn't that tight and deep and matching with subwoofers doesnt eleviate the dynamics issues unless you roll off the bass to the panel.
4: They don't play that loud
5: They are very inefficient.
Get a pair of Kef Blades they are less bright then the Personas and a bit more forgiving, the midrange is spot on for classical, they have fanastic punchy bass, and they play loud.
Ask Brownsf and his threads we tuned for him a set of Ref 5 and he is 99% classical and his system sounds spot on like you are in front of a large orchestra.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Kef, Paradigm Persona dealers |
We can understand why you like the Maggies, they are much softer in the midrange, and present a much bigger overall size of image.
Personally we have been through the panel world with Quads, and Maggies and they never sounded as realistic as the best dynamic loudspeakers to us.
Do love the Maggie ribbon tweeter. You would have loved the Kef Blades which are very realistic sounding without the upper octave issues that require careful matching with the Personas.
The good thing is the big Maggies do sound wonderful for big orchesteral works.
Best speakers ever for this kind of music Scaena Line arrays, except they cost $60k.
Good luck with the Maggies Pwinson.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Yes Ahofer, the Kef Ref 5 did sound very realistic, you could have gotten the smaller Ref 3 same sound but smaller in size.
The difference between the two setups you heard is totally different electronics a tube preamp and a solid state amp is going to sound totally different than the integrated amplifier we demoed.
Was hoping you would swing back and then once we zeroed in on the speakers then we would have explored the range of electronics we have which includes one of the best tube preamplifiers ever made the Manly 300b preamp with a suitable matching amplifier.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Nabcs we just put out an Innous Statement the difference in musicality is huge with the Persona 9H yes this is an expensive servers just shy of $14k however once you hear one you will not believe that digital can sound this much like analog.
And yes your Triode 845 and Ayon Dac do help, from our experience the Personas need a warm sounding matching of gear to bring some additonal warmth to the sound.
The Personas do not hold anything back so if you are looking for transparency and holographic imaging, tight deep bass a touch dry, the speakers are magical.
We have spent two years tweaking our 9H demo after trying out many different electronics packages, cables, power conditioners and digital front ends till we created some real magic with the 9h.
As we said the addition of the Statement has taken the sound of the Personas into a completely different level of sound quality.
It is hard to believe that a computer server can alter the sound this much the Statement is a quantum leap over anything we have tested.
The soundstage is bigger, there is a sense of flow that is super impressive, and notes have much greater sense of sustain, the bass is better, sometimes it is spooky how realistic singers can sound.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona and Innous dealers |
Steve with any reference grade loudspeaker you do not get the drop and plob sounds great trick.
Most truly high resoltion loudspeakers will only come alive with the right group of components.
Ask Brownsf, one of the posts which was deleted by the moderators because some negative people derailed the thread went over
Brownsf journey to get a newly purchased pair of Kef Ref 5 to sound good in his room.
We started corresponding via Audiogon which lead to a series of recommendations on an upgrade strategy designed to make his system sound really good, this included a new server, a new dac,new cables, footer for the speakers, a power conditioner and cabling and a few more tweeks.
This ultimately lead to a visit to his California home to demonstrate what we could get out of the speakers if they were working harmoniously with the right matching components.
Long story short the addition of the new server, dac, interconnects, footers, power conditioner and cablingalong with repostioning of his speakers created a system which in our opinion was more lifelike than his local dealers $300k system with YG Haileys. We kept his original ARC electronics and speaker cables.
So the key take away is great speakers require synergistic blending of components, digital sources, cabling, room tuning and accessories before you can create real magic.
Think of it this way a $200k sports car can not perform with 86 octane gas and cheap tires, no matter how good the car is.
Just put the wrong gas and subsitute the uber expensive and high performance tires the car came with with any brand of tire and see how the car performs guarantee the results wouldn’t be too good either.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
No Cotuzzi dialed in is not placement, dialed in the combination of electronics, cabling, digital, vibration isolation, power conditioning, roon tuning.
Right now we are in the process of retuing due to the addition of the Innous Statement.
When you are assembling a reference grade system everything matters.
When we were shopping for electornics to run the 9H we went through, Devialet, Electrocompaniet, Conrad Johnson, Thrax, Chord, and finally the T+A gear which sounded the best with the 9H's in our showroom.
We went through many different power condtioners including: Running Springs, Isotek, Audience, and Audio Magic, we even tested the Audioquet Niagra 7000, the Audio Magic was by far the best sounding with our setup.
Recently the addition of the Critical Mass Center Stage footers made a very noticable improvement.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona, T+A, Innous, Critical Mass dealers |
Pwinson it has nothing to do with cost. The Persona 3F sound very good on a Naim Uniti Atom which is a $3k intergrated, they sound way better on a Naim Uniti Nova a $7.5k intregrated amp, and they sound so much better on the Naim NAC 272 preamp/dac and the Nap 250 a $13k combo.
Does that mean that the Naim Atom didn't sound great for the money it sounded terrific, however, the sound took on much more bass, greater dynamic impact and greater clarity with the more expensive gear.
Part of the equation is matching gear, think of it this way a $90k Porsche can be rendered nearly undriveable with low octane fuel and the wrong quality and grade of tires. Buy a Porsch be prepared to feed it right.
We have put together some very good sounding Persona systems that were not crazy expensive but with a set of speakers this resolving you can easily hear everything good and bad in the setup.
As per cost yes there are really good $5k amps however, most of the time they still leave some sonic signature that is not seen with the better gear.
We love the T+A gear and the $12,5k 2500R sounds amazing with the Personas, however, the $23k T+A PA 3100HV really takes the speakers to levels they just couldn't get to with the lower gear.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Pesona dealers |
Trudat, your naivity shows through.
There are many speakers above $2k that will sound good with most electronics, however, most $2k to $10k speakers don’t have the same level of resolution, how do we know we sell many of them:
we sell Elac Adantes, PSB T3, Legacy Signatures, Kef R Series, ATC, Cabasse and a few others.
when you reach into the uber high resolution loudspeakers especially speakers in the $10k and above price range from Paradigm, Magico, Rockport, Rahido, and others they will not sound good on just any set of electronics, they must be matched with the right gear to sound good.
The Sopras are tuned a bit warmer and are a bit more forgiving then the the Personas, we have heard the Sopras and they are very nice speakers they don’t have the same degree of clarity nor do they image as well, they are lovely musical speakers.
As per the Focus Se wipping the floor we have them as well, and they don’;t wipe the floor over the Kef Reference line nor the Paradigm tney sound distinctly colored and veiled compared to either the Kef’s or the Paradigms, not saying that is a bad thing they are tuned to be musical.
The Focus are fantastic speakers but they are tuned warm in the midrange, a slightly recessed top end and big warm full bass, they are very easy to setup with almost anything because they don’t have the same level of clarity or soundstage specificity that the Paradigms do
In fact the Focus tend to sound better on brighter electronics
We heard Wilson XLF on Boulder with DCS and Nordost and the sound was unlististenable, we heard the less expensive Wilson Alexx with Krell and Nordost cabling and the sound was fantastic, so yes pairing is everything.
Just the same way when we tried out electronics with the Paradigms and the Polymers, we tried CJ, Electrocompaniet, Manley Labs, Devialet, Chord, Thrax and finally T+A which sounded the best out of all of these products.
A great system requires careful setup with the right matching components.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Paradigm, Legacy, Kef dealers |
Trudat you totally miss the point. It is not that you have to use uber expensive or every tweek in the book to make the Personas sound good, the issue is that there is way more than just good you can get out of a speaker with this kind of resolving power.
Yes the 3F can sound "good" wih much less expensive electronics like we mentioned, there is a difference between passing good and excelling.
Perhaps our standards are different from yours, we walk most shows and hear all the rooms and most room barely resigister as sounding what they can sound.
Tweeks are tools used to make a system come alive, power cords, vibration isolation, room tuning are tools we use to sculpt sound until a system sounds as close as possible to live.
It can take years to tune one system until it sounds magnificent.
In the case of the Personas we went through many brand of electronics, tried a few different cable variations, tried different dacs, different servers different vibration isolation and added newer tuning tweeks like the Furutech NCF products until the system sounded as close as possible to real music.
We have the T+A gear and the Krell, the T+A noticably outperforms the Krell gear, the Krell gear is less expensive and sounds great for the money, the T+A gear just sounds far better but costs way more.
IF you hear this sytem with the Krell gear you might think what a great sounding system, when you heard it with the T+A you might think wow that sounds so much better.
It are these kinds of testing data that proves that the quest for really amazing sound is a process of trying different components until the sound becomes as realistic as possible.
We are willing to bet that you may be one of the zillion audiophiles who doesn't believe in tweeks, or cabling or whatever that these are expensive foolish toys for the gulible with out the experience of actually trying some of these devices, then again you might not.
The Critical Mass Centerstage footers are transformational devices, that makes a system sound way better it it one of the best vibration isolation devices out there.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
