Others experience re: subs and Magmepan 20


I have a pair of Magnepan 20r’s. Have enjoyed them for years. In my room they go to about 30Hz, response way down at 25Hz.

I am experimenting with a pair of Janis subs. This gets the response to about 25 Hz then down a lot at at 20Hz. It adds a little something but not I am not bowled. over. I hear and feel a bit (in my chest) on some music.

I would like to hear about others have experience with adding subs to nearly full range speakers?

Did you feel you got your money’s worth for "a few silly Hz"?

Thanks
imdoc

I designed the Swarm subwoofer system mentioned above, and worked with Jim Romeyn on his conceptually-similar Distributed Bass Array system.

The Swarm was originally designed with dipole speakers in mind, specifically Maggies and Quads. Briefly, dipoles have smoother in-room response in the bass region than monopoles do (according to a peer-reviewed paper by James M. Kates). Smooth bass is fast bass, subjectively and literally - in the bass region, in-room peaks happen where the energy decays more slowly, and vice versa. In fact, the two are so interconnected in the bass region that if you fix the frequency response, you have also fixed the time-domain response. So the key to matching the "speed" of dipoles is, match their in-room smoothness.

Two subs intelligently positioned will be roughly twice as smooth as one sub. Still not as smooth as two dipole main speakers, but definitely better than one sub. Four intelligently positioned subs will be twice as smooth as two, and comparable in smoothness to a pair of dipoles.

The improved in-room smoothness that arises from using multiple subs intelligently distributed may seem counter-intuitive, so let me try to explain: Imagine you are looking at the in-room frequency response of a single sub. You see a few big peaks and dips. The problem is not only their magnitude, but also how far apart they are - you see, the ear/brain system tends to "average out" peaks and dips that are within about 1/3 octave of one another, but these are almost always going to be further apart than that. Small rooms are typically worse than big rooms in this respect.

(Also, the ear is especially sensitive to changes in loudness - peaks and dips! - in the bass region. This is shown by the way that equal-loudness curves bunch up south of 100 Hz. So there is usually a LOT of room for improvement in the bass region.)

You can move the sub or move the microphone location and those big peaks and dips get shuffled and changed, but they do not go away. Now imagine that you add a second subwoofer in a different location. It too generates a big peak-and-dip pattern. But unless the second sub’s peaks and dips overlay the first’s (which can only happen if the two subs are in the exact same spot), the sum of the two will be significantly smoother than either one alone. Mathematically, it will tend to sum to half as much average deviation (or "twice as smooth"). The same trend holds as we add more subs. And not only are the peaks and dips smaller in the summed response, but they are also more numerous and therefore closer together, so the ear/brain system’s averaging characteristic comes into play, and the subjective improvement is probably greater than one might think from eyeballing the summed curve.

Anyway my point is, there is some solid acoustic and psychoacoustic science behind the distributed bass array concept. Credit to Earl Geddes for sharing his ideas with me and allowing me to use them.

Duke

Duke,

     Thanks for your very thorough explanation of how the Swarm and Debra DBAs were designed to work.  
     I can personally attest to how the Debra DBA actually does produce extraordinarily bass results in my 23ft x 16ft living room for both music (often hi-rez 24bit/96khz WAV files as well as ripped copies of redbook CDs) and as part of a 5.1 surround system for HT. I assume the almost identical Swarm would perform equally well in my system and room.
      The way this DBA system so seamlessly integrates with my older Magnepan 2.7QR main speakers is truly exceptional.  I believe either the Debra or Swarm DBA would likely be a very good solution for extending and improving bass response and impact in any room and likely integrate very well with any brand or type of main speakers.  But I agree the very fast and articulate bass produced by these DBAs are especially good for mating with Magnepans and any electrostatics. I also like the way they can effortlessly reproduce deep and powerful bass when the content calls for it.

      I'd definitely suggest the OP, imdoc, would be well served by auditioning either the Debra or Swarm DBA with his very nice Magnepan 20s in his room before purchasing any other bass solution.

Thanks,
   Tim

Thank you very much, Tim! Glad the Debra is working well for you!

The only question mark in my mind regarding imdoc’s situation is, whether his room has something going on (large area and/or open floorplan perhaps?) that results in minimal boundary reinforcement in that bottom octave. It sounds to me like his primary issue is a shortfall in bass quantity, to the extent that if there is a qualitative mismatch between subs and his big Maggies, it hasn’t been obvious yet.

Both the Debra and the Swarm are "voiced" with the expectation of about 3 dB per octave of gain from boundary reinforcement below 80 Hz or so. There is a fair amount of adjustability built in, between the equalization available in the amp and the other setup options, but it is possible that he needs more bottom-octave energy than our systems provide in their "stock" form.

So while I think we have a good solution in the room-interaction domain, in this particular situation I don’t know whether we’d meet the quantitative requirements. Not that the four 10" subs in the Debra and Swarm systems are wimpy (their motor strength is unusually high, and many of our customers have measured in-room -3 dB points around or below 20 Hz), but maybe he’d be better served by four 15" subs that are voiced "flat" rather than voiced with typical boundary reinforcement taken into account.

Duke

Hi Duke,

Very interesting and very important for the OP, imdoc.

I agree he may be better served with a custom distributed bass array but that he should use subs with even larger drivers for more bass quantity. The chosen subs should be ’voiced’ flat, not -3db down below 80 hz like the Debra and Swarm subs are to compensate for room gain in typical rooms. The main points being the use of larger and voiced flat subs would better suit imdoc’s desire for more deep bass response.
I know the Debra/Swarm DBA system is a great solution for mating seamlessly with Maggies and it does have good deep bass impact in my room and system; bass I do feel in my chest on some music and HT content. However, I’m more concerned with the quality of the bass than just the quantity. But I understand this doesn’t mean the Swarm/Debra’s bass will be sufficiently deep to satisfy imdoc.
Finding a good bass system solution for imdoc, one that integrates well with his large Maggies and also is capable of producing exceptionally deep bass on a consistent basis, may be possible but it would likely be extremely expensive.

Imdoc seems to be looking for a hi-end bass system at a bargain price. I think we’re all aware he’s not going to attain this with his pair of Janis subs no matter how hard he tries.

Before we can give any further meaningful advice, I think it’s important to have a description of his room and his budget.

Currently, my thought is he has 3 main choices in the form of good/better/best and depending on his room and budget:

Good= Obtain 1, or perhaps 2, additional Janis subs and experiment with placement for best performance. This is likely the least expensive option, although I’m not sure of the which Janis model sub he currently has, its cost or whether he has the room for 1-2 more subs.

Better= Purchase a Swarm or Debra complete DBA system for about $3,000. Very likely to blend well with his speakers but unsure if it will provide enough deep bass impact to satisfy.

Best= Create a custom DBA system using 4 subs that utilize 15" drivers and are ’voiced’ as flat. Definitely the most expensive option (likely at least $6,000 but actual cost dependent on subs preferred). Most difficult aspect will probably be finding subs that blend well with his large Magnepans but having the room for 4 larger subs is also a concern.


Thanks,
Tim