So, assuming there is a listening room noise floor, would a room with 0db ambient noise level be best, would it have to be an anechoic chamber? There have been a couple posts here with practical advice for lowering listening room noise levels, thank you. As for further measures within listening room, how about double layers of drywall with the best absorptive materials between walls, same with ceiling, cement slab floor. Any room treatments to try to limit external noise would likely be detrimental.
Another funny thing, some ridiculing this post are Schumann Resonator fans, a piece of equipment designed to mask earth's background electromagnetic noise, shazam, a device used in audio systems to block ambient, steady state noise within listening rooms.
|
So true, just this morning measured my room. Steady state near 40db, with noises from active outdoor environment, into 60's. And I live in relatively quiet suburban area. Busy roads, tires on pavement, amazingly loud, can't imagine living close to that kind of noise disaster. Loud vehicles are so popular today as well, some of these measure well over 100db near vehicle.
Quietest time for me, winter, late at night, as long as wind isn't blowing, furnace off, snow really blunts outdoor noise. A nice snow storm, no vehicles moving, audio bliss.
|
Some of you are totally misunderstanding what I'm saying. I am not talking about the noise floor of the audio system. This is ONLY about the noise floor of one's listening room. With the stereo system OFF, I can measure the in decibels on my decibel meter noise. Since I'm measuring noise that noise does exist in my listening room. Whatever that measurement is, is the ambient or steady state noise floor. Now, that steady state level of noise is not maintained long term, cars go by, gusts of wind, furnace turns on, etc. So now we have a higher level of noise which I can measure on my meter. So, the noise floor is a combination of noise your house generates and what outdoor environment adds.
For instance, some recent listening sessions have been interrupted by fire works, certainly my system masked that noise at higher volumes, but during quiet passages, boom, boom, boom. Wow, that really made for a great listening session, And you're trying to tell me the noise floor of my listening room doesn't matter, just increase the resolution of my system. Ok, if that gets your rocks off. Now, the fireworks thing is an extreme example, but there are many other noise events that may intrude upon listening sessions, some may be masked, others not, depends on volume of noise event and volume of audio system.
Bottom line is. there is a noise floor in listening rooms with audio systems off, there is a steady state or ambient level and there is an acute or short term level caused by short term events from within home and from external environment. And then there is a ratio of stereo system volume to listening room noise level, both the steady state and short term. This ratio is constantly changing based on setting of volume knob, dynamic changes in recording, and the short term and or ambient noise floor of room. The greatest ratio, or best case scenario would be when volume of system and music is greatest and room noise is lowest, worst case, soft passages in music, room noise level high. Now some music listened to at high volume and recorded at high levels and with high levels of compression may work for you with a crowed freeway next door. Would music from a small jazz ensemble or classical quartet recorded with high dynamic range work for you? Again, an extreme situation, however, this constantly changing or dynamic contrast between room noise and audio system volume is always present. Do you seriously believe none of these environmental noise events doesn't impact your listening environment and enjoyment of music!
|
Another thing, how much more ambient noise is added when you measure ambient sound with your system is on, no music, just idling. Is it 15db, 20db, 5db, if it was you'd have one lousy system. I bet it adds virtually nothing, and I hear people complaining about hum and other residual sounds from systems. I guarantee you with my system in this state I'll hear virtually every single noise event from both indoor and outdoor sources that I'd hear with system off.
|
Speaking of vehicles, noise and internal combustion engines. I have 2021 Ducati Supersport S, Suzuki DRZ400 and 2011 Mustang GT modded to no end. They all make lots of noise, I may be guilty of imposing on someone's listening session. Still,I'm relatively tame when it comes to aftermarket exhausts, not obnoxiously loud.
As for electric vehicles, was up Northern MIchigan on Ducati, nephew on his Aprilia RSV4, got behind a Tesla X (1,020 hp) on a beautiful very little traveled winding and hilly road. The Tesla saw us behind him, decided to race, we got up to speeds well in excess of 100, fun times if you don't mind danger. That Tesla is one torque monster, and that torque is always on tap. My nephew had to hit over 150mph to pass the Tesla, I'm not quite the risk taker my nephew is, I was happy to stay behind.
Don't laugh at electric vehicles, they will supplant the internal combustion engine, performance freaks need not fret. Sure, they don't make the sound and the diy mechanic (as I am) will likely not have much to work on. But they will outperform the internal combustion engine, offer more reliability, and be more durable. The present greatest defects, specifically range, charging time and available charging stations will be solved. I'm a gear head and not scared and or hateful of the electric car future. And then we'll have all that silence to behold, good for the listening room.
|
I'm not really sure I agree on the greater the system resolution, the less ambient noise floor should matter. As I've attained ever increasing levels of resolution, the more these ambient noises bother me. I tended to listen at higher volumes when system less resolving. Also, as my system's dynamics, resolution, transparency have improved I"m listening to much wider range of music genre, greater macro and micro dynamics mean quiet passages are that much quieter (system wise), higher level of ambient noise means I can't make out those minute micro dynamics quite as well as the macro, this phenomenon is very noticed in my room and system. Lower ambient noise levels would allow that minutiae to be heard better. At the level of system resolution I'm talking about every single little link in chain matters. I'd suggest listening room may be single most important component in audio systems. Even though I have dedicated listening room that's been judiciously treated with room acoustic devices, I'd now consider my room to be the weak link in system.
And I often hear the old adage, my system sounds better late at night. Usually you hear cleaner AC as the reason for this improvement, I'd also suggest it may have as much to do with lower ambient noise floor in listening room. Much less human activity, all activity makes some level of noise.
As for the snow thing, do you know that snow can be an insulator, ever heard of snow forts, may save you if lost in wilderness. Tires over pavement much louder than tires over worn down snow, yes, new snow will make crunching sound, not worn down snow. And if piled up around house may reach quite high on first floor of house, this insulates the house somewhat. And then we have much lower traffic volume and decreased speed during snow events. For many of us, traffic noise is likely the bulk of what makes up this ambient noise level.
|
In order to mitigate or solve a problem, one must first identify that it is in fact a problem. Once identified as problem, you have a number of choices. You can ignore the problem, they say ignorance is bliss. You can admit there is a problem, decide there's nothing to be done to solve or mitigate, fixate on problem which brings suffering, at this point you can choose to keep on suffering or end it by not subjecting yourself to the suffering (give up the audiophile game). Finally, you can either solve or at least mitigate problem.
I've chosen to mitigate problem by choosing to listen at certain times of day, treating my room to minimize outside noise, minimize home generated noise. As for the remaining noise I can't eliminate, I've chosen the ignorance route. Sometimes putting things into the empty section of the brain is best choice.
|
keithsax, cool, I have 1970 MGB GT, so elemental and slow, gotta love it!
|
I've tried something similar, a high back chair, higher than my ears. My listening room at end of house, front wall at outside wall, so at listening position virtually all house generated noise behind listening position. The high back chair masked those noises to some extent, but also eliminated nearly all sound reflections from behind listening position, destroys sense of immersion in sound field, no way!
Here in order of preference would be my favorite listening room locations. Least favorite is room with walls on outside of house, worst because uncontrolled outdoor generated noise. I'd rather have greater issue be much better controlled interior generated noise. Least outside walls is best. I have three exterior walls for my listening room, not good.
Next would be interior room in house, more insulated from uncontrolled outdoor noise, perhaps the least from the more controlled interior noise.
The best possible listening room would be in basement of house, by far the best insulated from the uncontrolled outdoor noise, indoor would be variable depending on placement of HVAC, plumbing systems.
In this room all walls double layers of dry wall, insulation material between layers, ceiling maximally treated to sound proof from home generated noise. cement slab covered in acoustic friendly materials, HVAC and plumbing systems (if located in basement) in sound proofed room.
|
You don't get it. The problem isn't when music is at 85db, its during the quiet passages, music may be at only 50, 60db, perhaps lower. Unless all you listen to is highly compressed music at high volumes, bring on the fireworks, furnace sounds, loud cars, what have you. Oh, and then I'll get drunk and not notice a thing. Sorry, I listen to highly dynamic recordings, kind of like real live music, for that matter,speach. Man, if you don't get the difference between music playing at 85db with ambient sound level 30db and the quiet passage at 50-60db, perhaps lower and ambient sound level of 30db I will never get through to you. Would you seriously not think that 20db, perhaps even lower difference between ambient and music volume would not impinge on hearing even lower level information contained within that overall global music volume. There may even be information you miss altogether if that info is reproduced by your system at lets say 25db and your room or ambient sound level is 30db. Perhaps some of you don't get it, at any volume setting volume level of music, say 85db there are lower level signals, could be any amount of db less than that 85db. This is commonly referred to as low level information, also related to micro dynamics. Can you imagine if the entire range of music presented was all blaring out a exactly the same db, we'd have no such thing as micro dynamics or even music for that matter, it'd be noise like I doubt ever heard in real life, even single notes have overtones, differing harmonics, not all those overtones are one single level db. And then we have all the variables of recording chain and playback on our systems. As previously mentioned recorded dynamics highly variable. Our systems also reproduce these recorded dynamics in variable manner, the higher one's system micro dynamic capabilities are will bring these higher to lower db micro dynamic differences into greater relief. The lower one's ambient or room noise level is will also bring greater micro dynamic relief or shading.
|
And to make it even more crystal clear, even macro dynamic range is quite variable. Roon provides a dynamic range index with each recording, this is the difference between the loudest and softest volume on any one track or cd/album, this is variable and measureable. This is a macro volume measurement, in other words the TOTAL volume of all the variable micro dynamic volumes contained within a recording or music, or even any sound for that matter. While one could measure micro dynamic range within the macro dynamic range envelope, far too complex, in any micro second it could be variable, so much low level information and constantly changing with performer's breath or intensity of touch or force on various instruments. Micro dynamics are what gives sound the quality of life. These slight volume differences or shadings will be masked or diminished to some extent by higher noise floor on system or room.
I just don't get it, so much talk about noise floor/SNR with equipment, virtually none about listening room. I often hear talk of listening room being most important component within audio systems, this aspect of room performance is extremely important to that component. The idea of a black background is both a function of system and room. And now I'm tired of being pedantic. |
Hilarious, I did mention my preferred listening rooms, don't recall anechoic chamber being one of them. I guess you take plenty of meds, altered mind can't detect micro dynamics, probably listen to all highly compressed recordings at high volume levels. Real head banger! You should really bang some sense into your head.
|
|
My practical goal for the ambient noise floor has been met. Mid 20db has been totally satisfying. My intention for anything lower is theoretical. And I'd agree one wouldn't want a totally dead room, some ambience and/or noise is our natural environment. My only intention for OP was for people to pay attention to minimizing ambient noise levels in listening rooms. Lots of talk about room treatments, which is vitally important, ambient noise part of equation.
|
A lot there, having been a sociology major in school, I've been long aware of bias, misperception, etc. And so I agree our brains should be considered as a component of our audio systems, taken together with listening room easily should get as much or more attention as the equipment itself.
Unfortunately, brains and rooms can't be rotated in and out of our systems as the equipment is. Many listening rooms require compromises for all sorts of reasons, and minds are generally not easily changed. The quest for obtaining that perfect mix of equipment is what occupies the mind, the room and training of mind not so much.
The goal of an audio system imo, is to both maximize resolution and minimize the need to ignore the bad things, a point where analytical listening melds into musical enjoyment, one moves past the point of analyzing the sound long term. The ambient noise level of my listening room during daytime is by far the weakest link in my system at this point Anything above a constant 30db or so is bothersome for me, at mid 20's I'm content. Still, I'd like to hear my system at something less than mid 20's, wonder how much more low level info I may be missing.
One more thing to add, at late night listening I'm generally 80-85db peak listening, I can always turn up volume to hear more low level info, but 80-85db is my comfort zone for a lot of music.
|
Equipment noise floor. If the RFI riding on grounds yes, but RFI can enter from myriad places. I've had rfi issues in past, cable dressing, equipment placement, room shielding can all help.
|
4krowme, environmental noise, also often called noise pollution. Ambient or environmental noise levels have risen over time, nearly imperceptible to most of us as such a gradual process. The drone of heavy traffic in urban or suburban area would be of great salience to rural resident, unnoticeable to the urban/suburban resident. Ignorant mind is most useful for humans.
Speaking of live concerts I recall a time when audiences were much quieter than contemporary audiences. Screaming during quiet passages drives me nuts, I came to hear the performer, the performer is NOT the audience. The ignorant mind would help me here.
|
