PMC 24 and Canalis Cambria two way floorstanders; What is the advantage to this design?:


I recently noticed several 2 way floor standers, in particular, the PMC.24 ($6000 retail) and the Canalis Cambria  at $5000 retail.  Pro-AC and  Spendor also offer a few 2 way floorstanders

Is there any advantage to a 2 way floor stander  to a 3 way system??

I am aware that less drivers and crossovers, and a slimmer cabinet "usually" provide better sound quality; However, the retail prices of the above don't seemed to represent "good value".

Thank you, S.J. 

sunnyjim
I had two way floorstanders, then moved to a 4 way full range floorstanders. Typically if well designed, 2 ways are easier to integrate and can be very coherent, but certainly they won't cover a very wide bandwidth. I have found no weaknesses in my 4 way with regards to coherence, and it goes a lot deeper. It's also a lot more revealing but that' more to do with the quality of the drivers and the overall design and so forth.

Basically I would say there's no distinct advantage to a well designed 2 way compared to a well designed 3 way (or higher)...but of course, a very high quality 2 way, compared to a modest quality 3 way probably will favor the 2 way. 
@sunnyjim - It makes for a much simpler crossover design - hence eliminating the issues that come with a more complex crossover.

As nitewulf posted - it also aids coherance

In a "good" 2-way design, the design of the drivers is where the "money" is spent. They usually have a more comprehensive frequency response than what a 3-way speaker might employ.

However there are 2-way designs that use a more standard driver - they tend to have "dips" in frequency response around the crossover frequency.

Pro-Ac and Kudos are a couple I have heard that seems to have dealt with this effectively and present a very uniform frequency response over the audible range

RE:
However, the retail prices of the above don’t seemed to represent "good value".
For me - "Value" has little to do with the number of drivers and more to do with the sound quality of a speaker - i.e. I let my ears decide for me

e.g. My speakers are Gershman Acoustics Sonogram and the woofer used in them is nothing fancy to look at, but it is an excellent sounding speaker. It is obvious that they focused on sound quality - and not looks.

Cheers - Steve




IME, there is less to the driver count of a speaker than the designer's skill.  I have heard multi-way systems that are great, and some that stink.  Ditto for two-way towers.  But a designer that knows what he is doing can get excellent, extended sound out of a two-way tower.  And, IMO, that's what you are paying for, not just the cabinetry and components, but also the artistry of the designer.  Let's put it this way:  Which would you rather have, a two-way tower for $6K that is the best speaker you've ever heard, or a 3-way (or 4- or 5-way) tower for $4K that sounds just okay?

I would focus more on the audible results rather than how many drivers are crammed into a box.  The only time these become a practical consideration is in relation to the size of the room, the amp driving them, and your preferred volume levels.
Having owned the 2-way Proac Response 2.5 for many years, I set out a few years ago to look for new speakers, and I was definitely biased towards 3-way or 4-way designs.  After listening to a lot of speakers (the quest is chronicled in one of my older threads), I ended up with... yes... PMC Twenty.24's.  They just sounded better.  And the transmission line design deals with what you might perceive as any possible theoretical bass deficiencies.

Thank you to all who have responded so far.

To Steve,  You make several good points However, my point about "good value" has little to do with how speakers look or the appearance  of  the cabinet.

Sound quality is the most important issue. However, as I said many times before:..."Quality sound.... but at what price??"  

There has to be a glass ceiling for the "performance versus price ratio"  I anticipated comments about the quality of the components and crossover design knowing full well the importance of quality parts and also inspired execution of sound quality via engineering genius  However, how many designers fit that classification . Price does not necessarily guarantee  ingenious speaker engineering and so, outstanding sound quality. . 

 To Twoleftears: Based on what I said above, don't you think the PMC .24 could be designed, built, and marketed  for less than $6000?. In the same way, that YG's first version of the Carmel speaker could have been priced at less than $18,000. The current Carmel MKII  now retails for $29,000.

Thanks to all,

S.J. 


@sunnyjim - the question I was answering in your OP was
Is there any advantage to a 2 way floor stander to a 3 way system??
However, "Value" is more a personal assessment of a product

Companies are seldom concerned about Value - they just want you to part with your hard earned cash

That's just the way of the world

As for 
"Quality sound.... but at what price??"

Whatever price the customer is prepared to pay - after all, we all have our own personal levels of "insanity"

Regards - Steve



@ Value is a tricky issue.  On many items, there's close to a 50% spread on wholesale vs. retail.  Factor in actual manufacturing costs, packaging, shipping, etc. etc. and then what's left?  Whatever that is, the manufacturer has to make a profit and defray all development costs.

That being said, speakers imported from the UK and Europe start off at a disadvantage.  As regards the Twenty.24s, yes, there's at least a perceived difference between it and a larger 3-way design from a US company manufactured in China.  Looking at a speaker from the outside, you can never tell what's going on inside.

But that's why buying lightly used or demo or whatever is so attractive.  And in my case, I bought when PMC were changing US distributors and the old distributor was selling off remaining stock at near cost.

 To two left ears:  Thank you for the return comment.


To willewonka:  Nobody will deny manufacturers deserve to make a profit

However, as you mention of that  "insanity... is the way of the world" , then maybe the world needs to changed for the better, or more sane"

Happy New Year to all

S.J. 

 @sunnyjim - Ah  but if the world were "more sane" we would have no Bugatti, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Pagani, McLaren - to name but a few - and that would be an awful shame - wouldn't it?  :-)

After all - they are all striving for some sort of "perfection" regardless of cost - isn't that what this industry is all about?

Happy New Year to all - Steve
I owned all my life 3 way speakers , and 4 years ago bought the Proac 140 MKII 2.5 way design actually it’s a 2 way design with double mid/bass drivers and found it’s the best design I ever heard ,the bass don’t punch in your face as 3 way speakers with dedicated bass drivers tend to do the bass is more organic and natural, the second advantage the double mid/bass drivers produce more dynamics and details than 2 way typical speakers with one mid/bass driver.

Thank you to those who responded.

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Without starting a new thread, does it make sense to buy a speaker that is 17 years old versus another that is newer, like issued within 5 years.

I ran across an ad on ebay for a pair of Audio Physic Avanti MK II speakers that look in very good condition. The other option would be Revel Performa F-206 that I have considered but can't find a used pair to fit my budget.

 I am familiar with the legacy of both brands  Related to the above thread the Revel's F-206 is a 3 way design and comes with those accursed port bungs.  The AP Avanti MKII may be considered a 2.5 way speaker, that has two drivers on the front baffle, and one side firing woofer on  each speaker.  Anyone  familiar with the sound quality of either speaker?? 

Thank you,  

S.J.

Buying speakers on line without a demo based solely on reviews and forum members' opinions is a big gamble, I did this mistake once in the past and sold the speakers after less than a year.

When you get into that kind of age, I think you need to start worrying about the driver surrounds, caps in the crossover, etc.  Still, if you're prepared to deal with that, it's a possibility.  To me, it seems that when you venture into this area, you're moving into "enthusiast" territory.

There would only be a couple of classic models that would tempt me, like the B&W 801's, or the Vienna Acoustics Mahler's.


I didn't see any Avanti's on U.S. ebay.

Perhaps you need to start over with a new, specific thread (max budget, 3-way, floor-stander, being driven by X, in Y-sized room, etc.).

Do you remember the movie"Ruthless People" where he tries to sell speakers by the size?  Not the size or the number of drivers. Let your ears be your guide.

Thanks you to the new responders for their comments


TO: TWOLEFTEARS:

Max Budget  $2500- $3000. on "used market"

The following is the system and room size:

Conrad Johnson PV14SL SE  pre-amp

BAT VK-200 amp ( 100RMS)

Ayre CX7e mp   CD player

Grover Huffman EX speaker cables

Golden Ear Technology model 7 speakers

Listening space: 12X15 with 8.5ft ceilings

Note: Listening space opens into a 12X18 dining/kitchen area divided by a medium size couch. Standard furnishing on walls and floor

I am trying to replace the GET 7 speakers because my current electronics seem capable of better sound via the speakers.

P.S.  I never was a big fan of expensive monitor speakers whether 2 way or even 3 way. They are overpriced, for example, Harbeth, Spendor, Sterling, J.M.Reynard, Totem etc. 



In the case of the PMC, the larger cabinet (vs. a standmount) provides for a longer transmission line to accurately develop design principles.  The transmission line is filled with damping material and absorbs all of the mid and high frequencies from the midbass driver that otherwise would reflect back into the driver or out of the cabinet's port. By the time the back wave of that driver travels the full length of the line, only bass notes remain and exit (out of phase) to reinforce the driver's front output. It makes for a very clean, uncolored sound overall, with tight bass (some may describe it as 'light' because it is so fast).  You really are getting the designer's experience, and technical driver and crossover design from the pro/studio world.

This.

+++

It's always fun to go vicarious shopping for someone else.

Looking on the 'gon right now, for me my top three choices in what's currently offered in that price range would be the Proac D28, Triangle Volante and Totem Forest Signature.  Any of those would significantly outclass the GET7s.

Still, if you buy used, 2.5-3.0 offers a pretty wide range of possibilities.  What have you heard with your own ears that you liked best?

Your system certenly deserve much better speakers than the GET  , I can recommend speakers with pro/studio approach: ATC,Proac,PMC,Spendor or Bryston. You can't go wrong with this brands.

twoleftears:  BTW, the Avanti MKII's I mentioned  appeared on e-bay in an auction ad . It expired on Wednesday or Thursday. The same seller ran the ad on AG about two months, but their were no takers

I heard the Totem Forests several years ago, and not sure how the Signature version is an upgrade in  sound.quality  The Triangle V's and Proac D-28 you cited I did not audition

Also thanks  to "itzhak1969" and keithtexas for your  comments.


Right now on ebay there's Dynaudio Contour S 3.4, Dynaudio Focus 340, Dali Helicon 400 Mk2, PSB Imagine T2 (B stock), etc.  In other words, between 'gon, US audio mart and ebay there's a wealth of very good choices.  But only *your* ears can tell you.
Oh, and after a bit of research, I found even more potentially helpful info:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/scansonic-mb2-5-floor-stander-speaker-does-it-complete-with-o...

Speakers, speakers, and more speakers.

To ps.  Thank you for  reminding me of my other threads I have posted concerning buying  new speakers.  I hope you are not indicating you are annoyed, by my several post, though it seems that way to me

Having been on this blog for over 10 years, I often witnessed members who become impatient with others who post threads about products asked about before. There are several ways to ask a question about an audio product

To me, I could care less about how many times a member posts thread about the same type of component. I hope I can help them based on my own knowledge and reviews of the product I may have read. Redundancy is just being scrupulous and careful, especially when it comes to speakers. It is almost impossible to hear every speaker a person may have interest in, and I have discovered overall the last 10 years that in many  audio showrooms, staff personnel are either arrogant or dismissive unless you declare you are buying the same day. Often,they can push customers to feel  obligated to buy. This attitude does not proceed from  the salesman's duty of "closing the sale", but usually from laziness and not wanting to make the buyer feel comfortable. When I used to "regularly tour audio stores, I've seen many a customer just walk out under such conditions.  It got to the point that when I walked into an shop, I would amiably announce that... "I was not buying today ,but just looking"  and of course I was treated like I had the bubonic plague

This may be getting a bit off topic, but sites like Audiogon should always be open and tolerant of others who either lack the knowledge of a product, or are reluctant to commit to a product without getting as much information as possible. We all have buying foibles, so my mantra is... "so ask away"

.


Thanks, S.J.  

 

Sunny,
I think that choosing speakers is perhaps the most difficult task. Over time I've learned a few things that work for me.

1- Decent speakers can sound pretty darn good when powered by excellent electronics.

2- "Great" speakers can sound pretty darn awful when powered by mediocre electronics.

3-Auditioning speakers, even at high-end audio salons, yields just a taste of what they can or cannot deliver.  It's only when one takes them home, and lives with them, that one begins to understand.  

4- The room is a very important component, often overlooked.

I read many reviews and so-called buyer's guides of numerous speakers before I made my choices.  Since then I've spent months dialing in what I have.  I love the journey but I also enjoy arriving a favorable end of said journey.  My goal is to enjoy music in my home- I'm there.  Thankfully.

I understand that "better" speakers exist. At this point I don't care.   :)

FYI: I have Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M's and Magnepan .7's.  Completely different designs and both are completely enjoyable depending on my mood and the weather outside.


To ps.  All good points  I think the Sonus Faber Cremona, etc is out of my price range. I did consider the Magnepan..7 which received many very good reviews. However, even though they are a different design with a different sound field than the GET 7's,  I thought they would be just a move sideways with a few minimal exceptions. I could consider the new 1.7i  which was issued last year; but you are familiar with the Maggies problematic nature in rooms of different sizes and lay-outs.

My listening space is 12X15 which opens into a equal size dining and kitchen area.  I believe the dealer I bought GET 7's from is also a Magneplanar dealer. I "might" have the option of a trade-in, but also have to pay 9.5% state tax on the remaining balance after trade value is applied..

BTW, I have passed over the Scansonic 2.5 's  which I have read and been told take a long time to break in and are finicky about placement.  I also passed on he Audio Physics Avanti II speaker , and Virgo I and IIs. The former is too big and also heavy, and the latter are too old in design  and could be possibly electronic and mechanical liability regardless of AP's reputation.


Thank you for the advice

S.J.        

Sunny,
Here are my final thoughts:

There's nothing "problematic" about Magnepans unless you object to their physical appearance, and expect the kind of bass that a 3-way dynamic speaker might provide.  There's a lot of plain bunk on the internets about Maggies.  IMO they're one of the least expensive ways to get into high-end speakers.

My listening space is similar to yours only smaller- 11x13 and the back wall opens to the living room and the inside wall has a doorway to the adjacent kitchen.  My .7's are about 4' from the front wall and about 10" from the side walls.  They sound fantastic. I run an all-tube system.  Wall of sound!  :)  Depth. Tactile.  And my cats don't mess with 'em.

Magnepans are arguably easier to position than many dynamic speakers due to their bipolar design which minimizes side wall reflections.  I found myself experimenting more with the Sonus Faber monitors to get them optimally positioned.

Here's my best tip:

If you want a completely killer system,  purchased new, for under $1000 bux, get a pair of Magnepan MMG's and a pair of Andrew Jones 8" powered subs.  Put one sub in one of the front corners and the other on a diagonal in a rear corner.  You won't believe what you'll be hearing.  Seriously.  Absolutely 100%  guaranteed.  :)  

Over and out.  

TO PS;   Thank you again for the recommendation and advice.

One final question, you highly regard the Maggie .7;  however, does the Maggie 1.7i offer more and better performance??  I have the electronics to drive either one.  I listed my system's components above on 1/4/18

S.J...