New Teres Direct Drive Motor Available as Option

A birdy recently chirped about suppliers who miss deadlines, and suggested the monkey watch his mailbox in late July.

As already posted on another thread, this "monkey" will be trying a Verus out when they become available. ;-)

Chazzbo's concern about rumble transmission into the platter is legitimate and well thought of, but perhaps he's never heard a Teres. Even their belt drive motors are far quieter than those used on most other TT's. That is why Teres, Galibier and Redpoint are able to use non-compliant belts that provide superior torque coupling between motor and platter. Despite this unforgiving coupling there is NO audible rumble on any of these tables. VPI and others use rubber belts to protect their platters from inherently noisy motors. Teres & its cousins don't have to.

Now add the fact that the Verus (and Certus) motors were custom designed and custom built by Chris. Do we think he spent three years designing a NOISIER motor than the off-the-shelf ones he's been buying from Maxon? Somehow I doubt it. Paul and I worked with Chris for nearly a year trouble-shooting the last generation Reference II motor and fine-tuning its controller algorithm. He is very aware of motor speed and noise issues and wouldn't knowingly offer a motor/drive system with audible rumble.

Chazzbo's concern is legitimate, but I'm hopeful Chris has addressed it with his usual good engineering. I'll be astonished (and very disappointed) if rumble is a problem.

***
Like Pauly, I'm not sure there's a huge distinction between idler wheels and a large diameter O-ring for platter/motor coupling. Either one can have or develop flat spots, cracks or other flaws that would be audible. But O-rings are readily obtainable. Getting well polished rings with no surface irregularities will be important, but fairly simple. McMaster Carr probably has them.

Given the enormous and genuine enthusiasm from idler wheel folks like Cmo and a host of others, despite the motor problems some Garrards are famous for, why wouldn't we want to hear a similar drive technology implemented with a state of the art motor? I don't understand the dismissive reaction.

***
My own concern (in advance of hearing) is that the elasticity of the O-ring material might still allow some slewing on bigger transients. Paul and I hate rubbery sounding transients, we don't even like rubber feet beneath our motor or table, so we'll be listening for that. If we decide to keep the Verus I'll probably experiment with O-rings of different durometers and materials. Performance differences would probably be platter dependent, but I've little doubt they'd be audible.

My .01,
Doug

I was going to mention the hole in Pauly's economics, but Jtimothya and Cello beat me to it.

Saving 1-2% via improved cash flow by paying 80-100% more to subsidize dealer and distributor inventories is no savings, and believing so is naive.

Our banker friend didn't get a "free" trial, nothing in business is free. He paid for the convenience he demands and delivery on demand in higher prices. His dealer may not itemize inventory carrying costs and GSA expenses on their invoices, but they certainly built them into their markup before quoting Pauly a selling price. If they didn't do so, they'd go out of business.

Dealers charge margins to cover their costs and a profit. If there's a distributor in the chain between Oracle and the dealer then there are two margins. If Pauly were comfortable with a manufacturer-direct product he could have kept those margins for himself, at the cost of 1-2% cash flow and a waiting period. That's my idea of a good ROI.

This conversation is a diversion from the OP's question about comparative drive technologies and the Verus as a specific implementation. If it were entertaining it might be worthwhile, but it's just naive economics with an attitude.

Doug

Willster raises some interesting questions. Chris has already discussed the DIY comment, which no longer applies to a Teres. Here's my take on some of his other points/questions.

Chris would never maintain his judgement is infallible, but his designs are proceeding forward on a progressive and logical path. He values owner input so he offered Tim, me and others a trial period for the Verus. We like our tables not because everything Chris does is perfect, but because his support is generously offered and upgrades - some expensive, some not - are readily forthcoming.

Chris once mailed me a better performing drive belt out of the blue. No charge. No demands. Just wanted us to hear it. This led us to experiment with multiple drive belts, a lively interchange of emails and better performance for all Teres owners. It may even have encouraged Chris's interest in new drive technologies, which led to the Certus and now the Verus. Playing some small part in the ongoing developments of an already excellent product line is FUN.

VERUS - VALUE OR OVERPRICED?
To get anywhere close to Teres-level performance from some belt drive tables (to pick one example) the owner has to add both a SAMA ($400) and an SDS ($1,000). Those options do nothing more than a stock Teres (or Galibier, or Redpoint) motor and controller. This manufacturer sells you motors that need isolation from the platter and controllers that don't keep even speed. Then they sell you upgrades to fix them. That, IMO, is a better example of poor value.

I know a Clearaudio Master Ref owner who dumped his three stock motors in favor of one retrofitted Teres motor/controller unit, with improved results. So have several Platine Verdier owners. Teres motors and controllers routinely improve the performance of competitors' $10-25K tables. How much more value can you get from one little company?

Well, maybe Chris has a new answer. The Verus upgrade will cost me less than VPI's, but I get a completely new motor design purposely optimized for LP playback and a radically different (and reportedly superior) platter/motor linkage. Oh, and I get a no risk trial. Sounds like value to me.

BEARING WEAR
The bearing wear Willster's friend experienced probably resulted from one of Chris's less successful early experiments, of which we were also participants (or victims, if you insist). For a time Chris was supplying brass ball bearings. Our 320 came with one. Paul (a metallurgist) predicted it wouldn't work in this application - and it didn't. The ball deteriorated quickly and bearing wear was both audible and visible.

To his credit, CB replaced our entire bearing assembly. He now supplies a durable stainless steel ball. We've been using that for several years with no audible problems. Last time we pulled it for inspection there were no visible problems either.

TRY B4 U BUY
As Tim is, so are we going to try the Verus in our system before committing to it. If it sounds better we'll buy it. If not, back it goes.

Even a non-Teres owner wanting to try a Verus on some other table would be taking virtually no risk. Let's remember Chris's amazing warranty, which precious few manufacturers would dare to offer. To quote the website, "If you are unhappy FOR ANY REASON with a Teres purchase you are entitled to return it for a full refund at any time." (My emphasis.) That applies to ANY purchaser of ANY Teres product, including Verus motors for use on non-Teres tables. Chris has never failed to stand behind any product 100%. Try telling another equipment manufacturer you just don't like your new Super XXX gizmo and want a full refund. Good luck.

ESCALATING ENTRY COSTS
I agree with Willster, it's regrettable that Teres no longer offers easily affordable/entry-level tables. It's not that prices have gone up so much, it's that less costly models (135, 150, 155, 165, 245) have been dropped while new, top performing models have been added. It's as if Toyota stopped making Corollas, and then Camry's, in order to sell only Lexuses. Nothing wrong with a Lexus, but...

It is difficult for a small manufacturer to support a wide range of models made in tiny production runs. Toyota can afford to sell Corollas at slim margins because they make and sell them by the millions. Everything becomes a LOT harder when you're talking monthly unit sales in the single digits. I give Galibier great credit for trying to serve this market with the new Serac. More than that, I've given any number of people a recommendation to try it. But look how long it's taken Thom to achieve a marketable, high quality product at a limited price point. He finalized the design nearly a year ago and he STILL can't get some components made to Galibier BQ standards. His frustration level must be even higher than the expectations of his lengthy waiting list. Top quality + short production run + low cost = a sourcing challenge that's very tough to meet.

My $.02, fire away.
Doug

Dgarretson,

Using a thread drive is a challenge, for just the reason you stated. I've tried it with Teres motors (which also have small diameter pulleys) and could not prevent audible slippage. A larger diameter pulley that provided more surface area would probably help.

The taller pulley and 1/2" tape most Teres/Galibier/Redpoint owners use works better. The height provides enough surface area to avoid slippage and dimensionally stable tape won't stretch and rebound. The only trick is getting the motor exactly level relative to the platter, else the tape crawls off the pulley. We also have to site the motor in a way that doesn't let belt tension pull it toward the table. Non-elastic belts just leave no room for error.

The Verus is an interesting concept. My one real worry is the elasticity in the O-ring that couples motor to platter. We have heard elasticity any time we've introduced it into the motor-platter-plinth relationship. I once tried very thin discs of rubber under the spike protectors beneath my motor's feet. No dice, the sound got notably softer. Thin, hard rubber discs beneath the three feet of this 80 lb. table had the same effect. Rubber belts? You know about them already. Motor, platter and plinth must act as one unit, as far as possible. As Chris reports, direct drive is best. The Verus may be next best. We'll know soon.

I'll leave comparisons of CB to Mrs. W to others braver than I. I've been raked over the coals by Mr. W without ever mentioning his wife, so I can only imagine how much worse that would make it! ;-)

Emailists,

The Verus was designed for and tested on tables with platters ranging from 25 lb. (the 265) to 35 lb. (my 320) to 70 lb. (Cello's 360). A 20 lb. platter will present no problems.

According to emails from Chris, the performance jump vs. belt drive is inversely proportional to the weight of the platter. Lighter platters have less rotational inertia, so they benefit most. I don't know if the Verus has been tested on a platter as light as 20 lb., but one might predict the biggest performance jump to date.

Dgarretson,
The best pulley profile is very slightly convex, with a small flange at top and bottom. Like a spool of sewing thread bulging very slightly in the middle. The bulge helps the tape self-center. The flanges provide a safety backstop.

Low mass seems to work better than high mass, so try delrin and yes, make it smooth.

Your present setup makes sense to me. Seems like the best arrangement of those materials: linearity close to the stylus where it's most audible, isolation as needed farther away. Somewhere on the Teres site there's a diagram of how to tie something called a 'blood knot'. It provides a long, relatively smooth join that helps minimize pinging as the knot rounds the pulley.

Heavy platter or light? See my response to Emailists above. As for including the flywheel as you described, you'll have to try it and tell us! It would indeed be an interesting experiment.

Doug

Kostas 1,

I may have gotten the model name wrong, but it was the one with three motors. If that's the Maximum Solution, I apologize for the confusion.

I haven't heard this rig myself, the owner doesn't live near me. But he sent photos and we traded emails. His report was similar to what I've heard when comparing elastic drive belts to the non-elastic drive tape used on most Teres-type tables: less slewing of leading edge transients, better pitch accuracy on sustained notes, slightly more dynamic.

I'd expect his improvement was not as large on the big CA table as on mine. After all, he did have three motors and three belts vs. my one, but it was an audible uprgade and he's sticking with it (unless he decides to try the Verus of course).

Not much, but I hope that helps,
Doug

Johnbrown,

Sorry your very interesting question got lost in the (fascinating) noise floor of that other discussion.

Cocobolo is pretty durable of course. I imagine the O-ring will wear about 100 X faster. I'm certainly not worried about any short term wear or damage during listening tests.

Still, it's a valid question. Even if the wood doesn't wear, any material worn off the O-ring could get deposited in the grain and leave a permanent ring.

How about a strip of metal? A flat black finish would virtually disappear against the cocobolo background. Might even look nice...

Tim,

The o-ring Chris supplies is from McMaster Carr, part number 9557K228.

How about a group power buy?! ;-)

Doug