If you read the description this is not a direct-drive motor at all. At least not in the commonly accepted sense where the motor is built around the main bearing. In the Teres scheme, the platter is driven by the motor through some sort of intimate contact. In some sense, this is closer to rim drive than direct-drive. Semantics perhaps. I do not mean to bring up the whole boring "which is better direct-drive, rim drive or belt drive" thing and I am glad that you did not go there either.
Two completely different Teres animals. Older models can be fitted with the new rim-drive. As I understand it this is trickle down technology from the development of the new Teres direct drive model. From Chris's comments on the improvement it does seem like a worthwhile investment. Hopefully, we'll be getting some impressions soon.
More importantly, Teres tables aren't the only ones to potentially benefit from this rim-drive motor.
Hell, I'm tempted to DIY a wheel adapter for my Scheu outboard motor pod and gives this a try. Won't have the micro-controller for speed, but should at least give a hint at what's possible. (though, torque may be an issue)
The Verus outer-rim drive may not be shipping yet. For an upgrade, check with Chris to see if you can try the new drive before returning your old outboard motor.
Looking at the line drawing, I wonder if the small nub on the bottom allows the Verus simply to lean into the platter while one of the 'wings' on the base stops against the stand to prevent the drive from torquing around. Just speculation on my part.
Seems like this goes against the grain but I am interested in that whole comparison of better speed but more rumble.But I am sure their on strings here and asylum ,more than I would want to read.BTW anybody catch that Nakamichi what was it model 1000 DD TT that had everything including compensator for off center spindle holes,azimuth control etc. etc.Sold used for a cool $14K.Can't imagine what it went for new.But Nakamichi used to be that company.Hear that their main business was no in fact tape decks or any audio but magnetic research and products for military.But I wonder how a rim drive can be better in terms of rumble than a belt even though one would expect dead accurate speed.Yet when tested most decks don't deviate from speed by perceptible amounts at least decently made 9as opposed to expensive ones) so don't see it myself.
Fella's I have to say after switching to a Garrard 301 idler drive I'll nver go back to a belt. This seems like the same premise and is very interesting IMHO.
From the Teres website
"Direct Coupling utilizes a large diameter pulley, an o-ring and gravity to directly couple the motor to the platter eliminating the degradations introduced by belts and idler wheels"
How is this anything other than an idler wheel?
Methinks I'll pass on this one.
Sure is interesting. I just measured the platter height of my VPI TNT and it looks like this motor would drop straight in to my setup.....a rim drive TNT!!....wonder what that would sound like?? Certainly a totally different approach to VPI's decoupled motor/flywheel arrangement.
I've been weighing up the possible benefits of the 25lb VPI super platter - but this motor would be a much more interesting experiment (especially since I already have the original 22lb platter).
Idler wheels are not directly coupled to the motor and do allow a minute amount of slippage where as rim drive is directly coupled to the motor. I agree that the success of this application will come down to just how well the control loop is implemented.
The rumble issue as I understand it has to do with wheels being out of round, cheap cast-metal platters, and/or motor vibrations through the plinth. Anyway, I don't think it is a given that an idler or rim-drive is going to suffer rumble just because it is an idler or rim-drive.
I haven't heard the Teres rim-drive but I did have the opportunity to hear the direct-drive prototype. Even though it sounds cliche I'm going to say it anyway. It really was like lifting another veil and getting closer to the music on the recording. Ok, maybe not new technology in general. However, the direct-drive was very impressive and showed tremendous potential, but not cheap. So, this is perhaps a way to allow those who can't afford a Certus to still benefit from an advancement.
I really can't see Chris putting out something that he is not happy with and he seems to have pretty high standards. I remain curiously open-minded. Again, we'll see what the reports are when the "monkeys" get to start banging it around.
As already posted on another thread, this "monkey" will be trying a Verus out when they become available. ;-)
Chazzbo's concern about rumble transmission into the platter is legitimate and well thought of, but perhaps he's never heard a Teres. Even their belt drive motors are far quieter than those used on most other TT's. That is why Teres, Galibier and Redpoint are able to use non-compliant belts that provide superior torque coupling between motor and platter. Despite this unforgiving coupling there is NO audible rumble on any of these tables. VPI and others use rubber belts to protect their platters from inherently noisy motors. Teres & its cousins don't have to.
Now add the fact that the Verus (and Certus) motors were custom designed and custom built by Chris. Do we think he spent three years designing a NOISIER motor than the off-the-shelf ones he's been buying from Maxon? Somehow I doubt it. Paul and I worked with Chris for nearly a year trouble-shooting the last generation Reference II motor and fine-tuning its controller algorithm. He is very aware of motor speed and noise issues and wouldn't knowingly offer a motor/drive system with audible rumble.
Chazzbo's concern is legitimate, but I'm hopeful Chris has addressed it with his usual good engineering. I'll be astonished (and very disappointed) if rumble is a problem.
Like Pauly, I'm not sure there's a huge distinction between idler wheels and a large diameter O-ring for platter/motor coupling. Either one can have or develop flat spots, cracks or other flaws that would be audible. But O-rings are readily obtainable. Getting well polished rings with no surface irregularities will be important, but fairly simple. McMaster Carr probably has them.
Given the enormous and genuine enthusiasm from idler wheel folks like Cmo and a host of others, despite the motor problems some Garrards are famous for, why wouldn't we want to hear a similar drive technology implemented with a state of the art motor? I don't understand the dismissive reaction.
My own concern (in advance of hearing) is that the elasticity of the O-ring material might still allow some slewing on bigger transients. Paul and I hate rubbery sounding transients, we don't even like rubber feet beneath our motor or table, so we'll be listening for that. If we decide to keep the Verus I'll probably experiment with O-rings of different durometers and materials. Performance differences would probably be platter dependent, but I've little doubt they'd be audible.
"Do we think he spent three years designing a NOISIER motor than the off-the-shelf ones he's been buying from Maxon?"
Doug, with all respect, this seems a simplification, as it is the spectra of the noise, not simply the magnatude, that is of issue, and it is very possible that, as listeners, we react differently to different noise specta, much as is the case with amplifier distortion. So you or Chris may prefer the new motor, and someone else might not.
This new developmeent is going to be interesting. I recently did one of those Lenco heavy plinth rebuilds and I was blown away by the immediacy and dynamics it brought out in every arm/cart combination I tried. My long suffering wife pointed out to me that it didn't really matter what arm I had on, the Lenco just sounded better than the Micro-Seiki RX5000 and the heavy plinth SP10 Mk2 with the 4Kg Audiolife platter that makes this deck a top performer. I don't get any rumble, hum or bearing noise issues from the refurbed lenco on its 65lb solid maple.movado plinth.
So the thought of the Verus against my RX 5000 could be irresistable.
Arms used: SME V; Transplanar VII; Micro MAX 282 (just sold) EPA 100; Lustre GST801. Carts are ZYX UNIverse, Koetsu RS, Kondo IO-j, Technics 205CMK4, Empire 750 LTD
Yeah, the monkeys are quiet. :) Not sure if the drives have started shipping.
This one looks real interesting. I might have to give it a shot.
A birdy recently chirped about suppliers who miss deadlines, and suggested the monkey watch his mailbox in late July.
Fella's I have to say after switching to a Garrard 301 idler drive I'll nver go back to a belt. This seems like the same premise and is very interesting IMHO.
A good customer of Frank Schroeder owns a Loricraft 301 and 501. They sit adjacent to each other on a wide shelf.
You know how he drives them? Using the 'table which isn't playing as a motor pod belt drive system for the other one.
It's the only modular belt drive system I know of whose motor pod comes with its own Schroeder Reference tonearm (grin).
There are lots of ways to solve a problem, and saying that the architecture dictates success or failure (rather than the design and implementation), is drawing the wrong conclusion.
This dialog comes up time and again whether it involves electronics, turntables, speakers, etc.
People incorrectly attribute the "goodness" of a component to the chosen architecture instead of the fact that they are experiencing a mature, well thought out design developed by someone who knows what real music sounds like.
Thom @ Galibier
Thom has hit this one right on the money. Its so easy to attribute the success or failure of a component to a specific element of the design or architecture when it is the series of design decisions and the implementation of the design that makes the most difference. Otherwise, there would be very little difference in components. You could just cookie cut any component "Add 2 of these caps, three of these resistors, simmer with tubes and install in a resonance proof case". Burn in for 250 hours and listen ;~)
Thom, what a cool idea! By using one platter as the pulley to drive the other, I think (if I remember my Newtonian mechanics correctly) there is less stretching force on the belt and a lower likelihood of slippage, ergo less speed irregularity (because the driving platter will have a huge mechanical advantage compared to a tiny pulley). Moreover, the driver Loricraft constitutes a high torque motor, as opposed to the very low torque motors favored by some designers for use with high mass platters. So, I see that 2-Loricraft idea (if it sounds good) as support for the idler drive/rim drive/high torque motor school. This is not to say that I disagree with your basic premise as stated.
"A good customer of Frank Schroeder owns a Loricraft 301 and 501. They sit adjacent to each other on a wide shelf.
You know how he drives them? Using the 'table which isn't playing as a motor pod belt drive system for the other one.
It's the only modular belt drive system I know of whose motor pod comes with its own Schroeder Reference tonearm (grin)."
Sounds like a waste of a couple of really nice turntables to me.. ;-) Although I have heard from one person who has owned both the Loricraft 501, and the Shindo 301 that Loricraft is not the best of the Garrard platform.
"People incorrectly attribute the "goodness" of a component to the chosen architecture instead of the fact that they are experiencing a mature, well thought out design developed by someone who knows what real music sounds like."
Thom, IMHO this works both ways..... When one see's a SET amp(no matter the model) I think they pretty much asume it's going to have a certain sound (i.e. not of the transistor variety). There are obviously widely varying degrees of sound to be had within this design parameter.... But, I have never heard a tansistor amp sound like an SET yet (or at least as good to my ears).
I've been watching the Teres website on an off for a long time and one disturbing trend (from my point of view) is the escalating price structure. What surprises me here on this thread is how several people commented that this new motor sounded interesting and they were going to try it, seemingly without ever even having had it in there system. You can buy a very nice turntable for the price of this motor and I fail to see why it should cost this much. Perhaps participants here have a lot more disposable income to throw around than I do. As for myself, if I were planning to drop this kind of money on a diy turntable, I'd go for a real direct drive. There is something about this idea of the motor leaning against the edge of the platter that strikes me as kludgy.
Wrt the Verus, I think "try it" means exactly that - try it in your system. Most of those interested are Teres owners for whom the Verus is available for a trial period and as an upgrade at a different price than a new motor only purchase. Whether on the inside of the platter or the outside of the platter, whether the friction comes from a mechanism or from gravity, the architecture seems basically the same, compared to, say, a belt drive.
Willster, I do agree one cannot fully appreciate the quality and value of Teres tables by looking at their website.
Well, Willster. It's like this. Many of us have first hand experience with the high level of quality of Chris Brady's work. So, when Chris tells folks that he's developed something worth listening to many of us tend to take notice.
I can understand your questioning, but you are speaking from a position of having no knowledge of the direct drive controller that Teres has developed or even of how Teres tables sound. Many of us are using tonearms and cartridges that are several times more that the cost of this new drive unit. I guess it's all relative.
Dan_ed, thanks for your comments but you are not quite correct. I don't own a Teres but that doesn't mean I don't have any experience with their products. A close friend has been using their gear for years and I've listened numerous times. He decided to build his own plinth for his Teres and when he dis-assembled his setup he found that the platter bearing was already very worn and noisy and he replace it with something a local machinist came up with. The new bearing was much superior. This kind of begged the question as to whether Chris Brady's judgment was always infallible.
Your comment about Chris telling folks that he has something new worth listening to speaks directly to what I was getting at. Several on this thread have implied that they are considering buying this motor without doing what you just suggested, i.e. listening to it first.
Also, if I read between the lines, you seem to imply that perhaps I don't have experience with top notch gear. This is not the case. My reaction was more based on my original impression of the Teres gear being presented as a way to get top performance without paying supertable prices because of the diy aspect, yet Teres tables and parts just seem to be getting more and more expensive.
Of course, as always, you spend your own money anyway you see fit. What is it about a stand alone motor of this type that would cause it to cost over $1600? I've spent considerably more on many things in my system, but not without a listen first.
Concerning the 'Verus', any thoughts about what it's use will do to the finish, and more long term, the wood itself, of the platter?
I.e., a rim drive system engineered from the ground up would probably dictate a ring of another, more friction-tolerant material, built into the platter . Aluminum. Steel. PVC. Etc.
To be clear we have a no time limit full refund policy so trying out a Verus motor is a low risk proposition. We are encouraging Teres customers to keep their existing motor for a week or two so that they can do side by side comparisons.
The Verus motor came from our attempt to make our Certus direct drive technology available at a more reasonable price. After careful evaluation we decided that a lower cost direct drive implementation would be too compromised and didn't make sense. We think that the direct coupled topology is the next best option to direct drive and can be implemented for a fraction of the cost.
Wilster, we sell components to DIY'ers but we don't sell kits of any kind. So it's interesting that you consider Teres turntables to be DIY and therefor expect lower pricing. We are a manufacturer with overhead and expenses and are in business to make a profit. Because we sell direct we are able to operate with lower profit margins and can offer correspondingly lower prices. But this has nothing to do with DIY. The downside is that as you pointed out most buyers are not able hear our products before purchasing. So as a generalization buying direct saves the buyer money but at the same time the risk is a bit higher. There's no free lunch...
Willster, I think I see what you're getting at and your experience through your friend has obviously given you a perception of Teres which i think is in the minority of experiences here and in general. Which is not to say you're wrong at all I just wanted to make the comment (btw, I've never heard any Teres gear) that for some people, I'm thinking about myself here; the development by people like Chris Brady of motors and motor controllers is a real asset to TT playback. Not just for his tables but for 'upgrading' otherwise fine TT's, vintage included, where the motor & PS are perhaps a weakness or getting a bit long in the tooth and reliability may soon be an issue.
If the cartridge provides half the analog waveform and the TT pitch/timing the other half. Then if one can afford it and the improvement is valuable enough, $1600 is well worth it imho. Of course as you say an audition is best advised.
FWIW, I did consider/look at the Teres motor but decided instead to buy something else. I mention that only because the money is about the same which I didn't consider unreasonable.
Hi Willster. I'm interested in knowing more about your friend's bearing. You said the bearing was worn upon disassembling in order to move it to another base. You do not say what part was worn. Do you know? How old was it? What oil was used? What platter did it have? Was it a kit or a specific Teres model? What did your friend's machinist come up with to better it? i.e. what improvement did he make? I note that you did not say the bearing was disassembled because it was noisy so he must have been happy to go to all the effort of making a new base until he found this problem. In what way did he feel it was noisy?
A lot of questions I know but a simple statement round here can cause people to wonder :-)
Willster raises some interesting questions. Chris has already discussed the DIY comment, which no longer applies to a Teres. Here's my take on some of his other points/questions.
Chris would never maintain his judgement is infallible, but his designs are proceeding forward on a progressive and logical path. He values owner input so he offered Tim, me and others a trial period for the Verus. We like our tables not because everything Chris does is perfect, but because his support is generously offered and upgrades - some expensive, some not - are readily forthcoming.
Chris once mailed me a better performing drive belt out of the blue. No charge. No demands. Just wanted us to hear it. This led us to experiment with multiple drive belts, a lively interchange of emails and better performance for all Teres owners. It may even have encouraged Chris's interest in new drive technologies, which led to the Certus and now the Verus. Playing some small part in the ongoing developments of an already excellent product line is FUN.
VERUS - VALUE OR OVERPRICED?
To get anywhere close to Teres-level performance from some belt drive tables (to pick one example) the owner has to add both a SAMA ($400) and an SDS ($1,000). Those options do nothing more than a stock Teres (or Galibier, or Redpoint) motor and controller. This manufacturer sells you motors that need isolation from the platter and controllers that don't keep even speed. Then they sell you upgrades to fix them. That, IMO, is a better example of poor value.
I know a Clearaudio Master Ref owner who dumped his three stock motors in favor of one retrofitted Teres motor/controller unit, with improved results. So have several Platine Verdier owners. Teres motors and controllers routinely improve the performance of competitors' $10-25K tables. How much more value can you get from one little company?
Well, maybe Chris has a new answer. The Verus upgrade will cost me less than VPI's, but I get a completely new motor design purposely optimized for LP playback and a radically different (and reportedly superior) platter/motor linkage. Oh, and I get a no risk trial. Sounds like value to me.
The bearing wear Willster's friend experienced probably resulted from one of Chris's less successful early experiments, of which we were also participants (or victims, if you insist). For a time Chris was supplying brass ball bearings. Our 320 came with one. Paul (a metallurgist) predicted it wouldn't work in this application - and it didn't. The ball deteriorated quickly and bearing wear was both audible and visible.
To his credit, CB replaced our entire bearing assembly. He now supplies a durable stainless steel ball. We've been using that for several years with no audible problems. Last time we pulled it for inspection there were no visible problems either.
TRY B4 U BUY
As Tim is, so are we going to try the Verus in our system before committing to it. If it sounds better we'll buy it. If not, back it goes.
Even a non-Teres owner wanting to try a Verus on some other table would be taking virtually no risk. Let's remember Chris's amazing warranty, which precious few manufacturers would dare to offer. To quote the website, "If you are unhappy FOR ANY REASON with a Teres purchase you are entitled to return it for a full refund at any time." (My emphasis.) That applies to ANY purchaser of ANY Teres product, including Verus motors for use on non-Teres tables. Chris has never failed to stand behind any product 100%. Try telling another equipment manufacturer you just don't like your new Super XXX gizmo and want a full refund. Good luck.
ESCALATING ENTRY COSTS
I agree with Willster, it's regrettable that Teres no longer offers easily affordable/entry-level tables. It's not that prices have gone up so much, it's that less costly models (135, 150, 155, 165, 245) have been dropped while new, top performing models have been added. It's as if Toyota stopped making Corollas, and then Camry's, in order to sell only Lexuses. Nothing wrong with a Lexus, but...
It is difficult for a small manufacturer to support a wide range of models made in tiny production runs. Toyota can afford to sell Corollas at slim margins because they make and sell them by the millions. Everything becomes a LOT harder when you're talking monthly unit sales in the single digits. I give Galibier great credit for trying to serve this market with the new Serac. More than that, I've given any number of people a recommendation to try it. But look how long it's taken Thom to achieve a marketable, high quality product at a limited price point. He finalized the design nearly a year ago and he STILL can't get some components made to Galibier BQ standards. His frustration level must be even higher than the expectations of his lengthy waiting list. Top quality + short production run + low cost = a sourcing challenge that's very tough to meet.
My $.02, fire away.
I must agree with Willster (to some extent)
While Teres has by far the most liberal return policy I have seen, the long delay in largely negates it.
Had I the opportunity to audition, I would considered Teres when I replaced my table earlier this year. However, having to pay my $10K and than wait 6 to 12 months only to find I dislike the table was not a risk I was willing to take. If I invest $10K for 6 to 12 months, getting my money back is nothing other than a loss. For the risk and time elapsed, I would want some return on my investment.
Disclaimer: Yes, I am a banker and you can be quite sure my customers pay (a lot) for credit
That said, from what I read Teres is a very reputable company that produce a very high quality product. I may potentially become a client if given the opportunity to audition.
I am a VPI TNT III owner with a poorly designed & now broken PLC controller that VPI no longer supports. I've also observed that the TT sounds better on thread drive than the stock rubber belts. However, slippage of the thread on the small pulley on the old 600 RPM motor makes thread drive difficult to keep in tune. I have been evaluating purchase of a Verus motor in comparison to VPI's upgrade path of SDS and newer motor. The Verus looks like the better alternative. Now if Chris is half as charming as Harry W's wife on the phone (answer: yes, he must be, even though I have never spoken to him), then I'll be buying a Verus.
Pauly- I would strongly recommend jumping on the next used/demo Teres that shows up here. It does happen from time to time. At a discounted price, there is virtually no risk. Also, I guess one way to look at the "investment" end of it that you talked/balked about is this way. If the table you are interested in provides an equivalent audio experience that is 15% higher than what you could get for the same price elsewheres, and if it requires you to pay up front and get delivery 1 year later, (at no risk, see the no questions asked return policy) then you have gotten a 15% return on a one year term investment with no risk. How much are 1 year CDs (no not the silver disks!!) at your bank paying this year? If its 15%, please provide your swift #s so I can wire you some money ;~) Seriously, dealing with boutique manufacturers has some pluses and some minuses. The pluses generally tend to be on the performance side, the minuses tend to be on the convenience and risk side. Here, I think its mostly on the convenience side. AND you get the satisfaction of a handmade product and the ability to deal directly with the builder.
I'm not trying to start a war here and yes I have a Teres TT (bought used; I only had to wait 1 week for mine (thanks Nick)! But its hard to use steely-eyed banker logic to evaluate a product that contributes to such an emotional experience as music (live or recorded, if its not evoking an emotional response, why listen?)
I echo Dougs comments about the Teres Bearings and would feel quite certain that what was once an issue with the bearings on some of the tables for a short period is no longer problem.
I just bought my 3rd Teres table and have had wonderful experiences all 3 times and no down time in 4 years. Chris took the first two tables back in trade and made the process dead simple and financially comfortable.
I have heard the Verus prototype run on my 360 and it out performed my 360 motor by a clear margin (I now have a Certus Direct Drive). The Verus will probably show a much greater level of improvement on tables with lighter platters and or lesser quality motors than those of my 360.
The fact that Chris allows a test drive and you dont have to leave your house to receive it (I seriously doubt that you will want to return it), makes this a pretty much of a no brainer for someone whose sonic goals and budget permits owning a Verus.
In short order, once the first flurry of Verus motors are in some customers hands, I suspect you will have some quite positive feedback that should make one feel quite comfortable demoing a Verus.
I am a bit confused with your post. Were you required to pay for the whole table in advance while you would wait for it ? In the past, Chris required a partial deposit and the waits were not in the order of 6 months.
Your question was to Doug, but I will tell you that Chris is a gentleman and a pleasure to work with.
I have no idea what the wait period is, but I have read one post were a gent stated he waited almost 12 months. I do not know what the background is pertaining to that particular transaction, and concur that it could be an anomaly and not the norm.
My post was to elude that I will not purchase sight unseen (or unheard) even if Teres has a liberal return policy, due to the extended waiting period. If, god forbid, I dislike the table, both my money (deposit) and time would be locked for the waiting period with zero benefit for me. I suppose due to my line of business I view time = money. Money not earning a return = loss.
I ended up purchasing an Oracle and which arrived in two weeks. Since it was to my satisfaction, I kept it. If I did not like the table, I could have returned it and purchased something else within a reasonable time. That said, I had heard an Delphi some time ago (10 years or so) and really liked it, so I was confident I would not be disappointed.
One could do what I and others who were planning on spending this kind of money on a table did. Make a few arrangements with Chris, Thom, whoever else, get on a plane to Denver and listen to the products and talk face to face. Maybe that's not as good as getting the 'table in your own room but with the satisfaction guarantee I can't really see the down side.
And best of all you'll have a chance to meet some really great people!
Dan. I guess my response would be two fold.
First, I don't need to hop on a plane to meet good people. I happen to know many that stay within ten minutes drive from me.
Second, my manufacturer of choice allows me to evaluate the product of my choice in my own system, in my own sound room, in a matter weeks, two to be exact.
You sound like a nice chap, so please don't take this the wrong way. But I wish I had clients like you and competitors like Chris and Thom. I'd have 100% market share today.
Using a thread drive is a challenge, for just the reason you stated. I've tried it with Teres motors (which also have small diameter pulleys) and could not prevent audible slippage. A larger diameter pulley that provided more surface area would probably help.
The taller pulley and 1/2" tape most Teres/Galibier/Redpoint owners use works better. The height provides enough surface area to avoid slippage and dimensionally stable tape won't stretch and rebound. The only trick is getting the motor exactly level relative to the platter, else the tape crawls off the pulley. We also have to site the motor in a way that doesn't let belt tension pull it toward the table. Non-elastic belts just leave no room for error.
The Verus is an interesting concept. My one real worry is the elasticity in the O-ring that couples motor to platter. We have heard elasticity any time we've introduced it into the motor-platter-plinth relationship. I once tried very thin discs of rubber under the spike protectors beneath my motor's feet. No dice, the sound got notably softer. Thin, hard rubber discs beneath the three feet of this 80 lb. table had the same effect. Rubber belts? You know about them already. Motor, platter and plinth must act as one unit, as far as possible. As Chris reports, direct drive is best. The Verus may be next best. We'll know soon.
I'll leave comparisons of CB to Mrs. W to others braver than I. I've been raked over the coals by Mr. W without ever mentioning his wife, so I can only imagine how much worse that would make it! ;-)
I wonder what this motor would sound like on a Raven One (or AC)?
Would the platter be too heavy for it? I think my One platter is about 20 lbs.
The Raven motors are very high torque, and excellent though driven by a belt.
I'm really curious.
While waiting for Verus I am considering adapting tape drive to the VPI TNT by machining new pulleys for motor & flywheel. In order to prevent tape crawl, would cutting 1/2" channels into the pulleys be desireable? What is the best material for a pulley (e.g. hardwood, brass, delrin)? I suppose you'd want something smooth but not slippery.
Currently to get traction I'm using three threads between flywheel & platter, and the stock round rubber belt between outboard motor & flywheel. This probably offers most of benefits of an all thread-drive system. By using threads to tightly couple the inertial masses of the flywheel & platter, the system is more stable & the motor has less work to do in dealing with the drag of the stylus. A rubber belt between motor and flywheel may actually help smooth out AC cogging & the flywheel should act as barrier to the rubber belt's torquing effects. In any case, the result is a much livelier, focused sound than you'd expect from a TNT. The only thing I don't like about it is the occasional pinging of the thread knots as they circulate through the grooves of the pulley on the flywheel.
With rim drive applied, do you think the ideal platter should be light or heavy? If heavy, it would be an interesting experiment to retain the flywheel and relocate it outboard of the Verus motor. The flywheel could be driven by a long tape loop from the platter. This would have the added benefit of snugging up the platter against the Verus motor capstan & centering the platter bearing. Centering the bearing was the purpose of the old TNT three-pulley system, which I needed to remove to enable thread drive around the platter.
Yeah, Pauly. Now why would I take your comment the wrong way. Thanks for giving me a real good look at who you are. You would not be able to get 100% market share in any market I'd be in because I can recognize your kind as soon as your mouth starts moving.
+++ Now why would I take your comment the wrong way +++
Perhaps because you react to my posts without giving it proper thought? My statement was not meant in any derogatory fashion, and I am somewhat perplexed at unkind your response. But I choose to take no offense you obviously did not do marketing 101 at school.
Faced with the choice of going with a known quantity (Oracle/VPI) with no up front expenses vs. suffering a total loss expense (airplane tickets, hotel accommodation and time spent) on a totally unknown (Teres/Galabier/Red point) the choice is somewhat of a no brainier.
As I mentioned in prior posts, if a viable audition opportunity was available, I would most certainly have taken the opportunity.
In order to gain new clients and keep existing ones, we go great lengths and expense. Expecting prospective clients to suffer an expense will not work at all. In short, if somebody wants to sell me a product, I expect them to suffer the expense to market to me and not vice versa.
And BTW, if you make use of a credit or debit card, you are quite likely one of my clients already. If not, my competitors are just like me. So I ultimately you probably do not recognize my type even when we make money off you.
The Verus was designed for and tested on tables with platters ranging from 25 lb. (the 265) to 35 lb. (my 320) to 70 lb. (Cello's 360). A 20 lb. platter will present no problems.
According to emails from Chris, the performance jump vs. belt drive is inversely proportional to the weight of the platter. Lighter platters have less rotational inertia, so they benefit most. I don't know if the Verus has been tested on a platter as light as 20 lb., but one might predict the biggest performance jump to date.
The best pulley profile is very slightly convex, with a small flange at top and bottom. Like a spool of sewing thread bulging very slightly in the middle. The bulge helps the tape self-center. The flanges provide a safety backstop.
Low mass seems to work better than high mass, so try delrin and yes, make it smooth.
Your present setup makes sense to me. Seems like the best arrangement of those materials: linearity close to the stylus where it's most audible, isolation as needed farther away. Somewhere on the Teres site there's a diagram of how to tie something called a 'blood knot'. It provides a long, relatively smooth join that helps minimize pinging as the knot rounds the pulley.
Heavy platter or light? See my response to Emailists above. As for including the flywheel as you described, you'll have to try it and tell us! It would indeed be an interesting experiment.
I bet it is a fine design. From the early days of DD motors being the standard cheap design, my worry would be rapir costs if something went wrong with the motor. It may be a silly worry with a motor this quality, but on a belt drive table and awful lot of things can be fixed by changing a belt. Short term flutter is something I find really annoying and the deveil of old DD tables, even the much (over) liked sp-10, was when the motor went bad, you basically threw the table away.
Obviously this has different qualities and froma good designed I can see it working. However, long term speed stability and rumble are tough issues to tackle.
Thankfully, market forces in this cottage industry are quite different from banking, and time-value-of-money calculations are mostly irrelevant. Perhaps the hedge fund crowd would do better to maximize utility & profit margins all down the supply chain by sticking to oenophilia, art auctions, and the outsourcing of decisions regarding statement audio systems to Sound by Singer.
Just what is your agenda here? We've been blessed to hear your ramblings on physics and how non-suspended tables can never be the equal of suspended tables. That's the kind of discussion I'll never have with you again as it only makes you look smarter than you are and me foolish. Now you come here to this thread and instead of discussing the subject from a scientific /engineering point of view, you just start throwing stones about how you'd never do business with Thom, Chris, or any other small business. I read your post several times. Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. You meant that to be condescending because that has always been the tone of your posts.
Thanks for suggesting a fly fisherman's blood knot. Now the thread runs smooth & quiet. Using this type of knot it's pretty much impossible to make two threads of identical length in order to run multiple threads. But a single thread works well if pulled tight.
Dan, it seems you have an issue because you perceive I dissed your idols. I give you my apologies but assure you any disrespect on my regard is limited to your imagination only.
Asking a retailer to make a product accessible for audition is not disrespectful. Nor is declining the suggestion to personally spend many hundreds of dollars to do so. I doubt Chris or Thom take offense in what I say, and are more than likely aware that they could have access to a bigger market if they could accommodate folks such as myself.
As for discussing the thread, again I have no way to evaluate the product at hand except at great expense too myself. The sum total of your 'technical' discussion is a combination of accepting the product as sound because you 'know' the manufacturer, and by responding in a regrettable tone when your suggestions are not found to acceptable.
As for rain or urine, I will leave the puerile aggression all to you.
Dgarretson, I understand marketing a product like a $5000 turn table would take on a much different from the product I market. However, companies like VPI, Oracle, Basis etc. do make some of their products available for review. I would like Teres and Galabier to provide me with the same opportunity.
As for all the good reports I have heard, I find it very difficult to take individuals seriously who lack even the basic ability to control their emotions on a bulletin board. Quite sad really.
Dougdeacon is completely right about the profile of the motor pulley being slightly bulged in the center. While my Delphi uses a belt, the convex profile of the pulley keeps the belt perfectly centered. It never touches the flanges above and below the belt during operation.
I think it's unfortunate to critique business issues that are premature and distract from consideration of the Verus motor as an engineered product that arrives at a timely moment in TT design.
Recent evolution in TT design seems to have mostly divided between belt-driven models with heroically massive platters & high-torque motors vs. lightweight born-again idlers & direct-drive models both new and remanufactured vintage. I've heard enough people whose ears I trust get excited about those damned Lencos to pique my curiousity. But intuition tells me that direct-coupled motors, together with the more sophisticated bearings, platters, and plinths of a modern TT (maybe almost ANY good modern TT), may be the next big thing. The Verus is the only solution I'm aware of that lets one test this proposition by performing a user-friendly heart transplate on his own TT in the privacy of his living room. It's an appealing idea. It might just upset the received wisdom that any given manufacturer's TT design is to be viewed as painstakingly cut from one piece of cloth that can't be improved upon outside of arm, cartridge, and platform substitutions. Of course if enough people find that this motor can make any belt-drive TT sound better, then how long will it be before the direct-coupled paradigm replaces belt drive altogether? And if heavy platters and their robust bearing assemblies are unnecessary with a direct-coupled motor, then how long before lighter assemblies take over & drive down costs of top models?
Some manufacturers may have enough capital to invest (risk) in making their turntables available through a dealer network while building a sufficient number of tables in advance that they are at hand for purchase. Hi-end audio may have as many who took that route and failed as there are still around. Nowadays, only those already established or financially well-heeled manufacturers can go it soley with a bricks n mortar retailer distribution model.
A build on demand business model - especially where the market is small - is one that were I a banker - heh - I might be more inclined to back. It would seem a much lower risk for the manufacturer and his creditors to take on.
When I bought my first Teres (a 255) I did a half year of research. I wanted sonics at a price point and the most TT for my dollar. Frankly there was very little in the marketplace at that time that could match the Teres build quality and sonic capability for the dollar. To get that I traded my money and three weeks of waiting. I was buying a hand-crafted turntable, not a CD ladder - frankly I wasn't concerned about the fact that my audio dollars weren't working for me while I was waiting.
A Web-based high-end is not everyone's cup of tea. Some people are not comfortable with a purchase if they cannot touch the product before they buy. If you need a box on a dealer's shelf then that's what you need. I have no problem with that and wish there were more dealers with stores I could visit. However, it is unclear why someone who prefers that approach would come to this thread with contrary observations about products whose distribution doesn't suit them.
I seriously doubt you can get comparable quality for the same price when a dealer mark-up is factored in. Its a trade-off - it may not be for everyone. To me Teres is a damn fine table, sonically, ergonomically, visually, and in its quality of components and construction. Customer service beyond reproach. Continuing innovation. I had no problem with that trade-off. And apparently - if the marketplace is the judge - it seems to be working. It is extremely rare to hear someone who is not a satisfied Teres customer, and Chris & co. appear very much in business, so regardless what someone might say, it seems like Teres is a successful enterprise with products people want to buy.