My speakers don't "dissapear"


Equipment used: Krell 400xi, Krell DVD Standard, Focal Utopia Mico Be's.

I have had my system for a couple months now. I have tweaked and moved and adjusted (even rearranged my living room) to get the speakers to image and "disappear" but no luck. No matter what I do, I can clearly tell the sound is coming from the speakers, no soundstage.

Will more burn in help? I only have about 40 hrs on the equipment in it's current state.
gherrera1

Showing 5 responses by larryi

It may be the case that you are expecting too much from your system. Have you heard other systems image as well as you expect from your system?

Most problems can be attributed primarily to the location of speakers. Proper location can be really hard to achieve even by "experts." While there are methods that can be employed for locating speakers (e.g., the Sumiko method, the Wilson method), ultimately, it comes down to moving speakers and listening to the results.

Generally speaking, the further you can get the speakers from the back wall, and to a lesser degree, the side walls, the better the imaging will be. Also, try to avoid big reflective objects between the speakers and in front of the speakers. Bookcases or other uneven surfaces to the side of the speaker is helpful too. If your listening seat is near the wall behind you, that can be a problem too. The best location is with the ears well away from the back wall and the back wall being diffusive (again, a bookcase, or if the wall is bare, a tapestry is great for reducing high frequency glare). If you cannot get five feet or so from the back wall, sometimes it makes sense to get really close to the back wall so the sound is integrated with the back wall reflection; some in between locations, say three feet from a back wall, can be quite bad.

Start with the speakers somewhat close to the wall and then slowly move them forward toward the listening position to find a spot that works. A good location would be one where the imaging is right, and bass response is reasonable. Generally speaking, bass is most prominent with the speaker close to the walls and corners, but, there are all kinds of nodes, so don't assume that after a certain point of pulling the speaker away from the wall, the bass will always be weak. You could find a node where bass is surprisingly strong well away from the walls and corners. The difference between a weak bass point and a strong one can be a matter of less than an inch; placement is that critical (google the Sumiko method of speaker placement).

After finding a reasonable spot, you will still have to adjust for toe-in and for proper tilt of the speaker. Generally speaking, little or no toe-in will give a bigger soundstage and less sound seeming to come directly from the speaker, but, the image may be diffused and location of instruments may not be drawn sharply enough (particularly a central vocalist). More toe-in toward the center listener will sharpen images but cause the size of the soundfield to shrink. Change of the backwards tilt of a speaker will affect tonal quality, integration of the drivers and the apparent height of the image.

One more thing to consider. Good imaging, particularly sound that seems free of the speaker, can only be achieved at one precise spot, usually a central spot equidistant from both speakers. I have hardly ever heard a setup where multiple listeners heard good imaging; move just a little toward one speaker and the image moves into the nearest speaker. The exceptions involved HUGE rooms, with the speakers placed very far apart, and in one case, it also involve three front speakers.
If two speakers are out of relative phase, the sound seems to be coming from everywhere (or nowhere in particular), but, usually not straight out of the speaker. But, an incorrectly wired speaker could be an issue. If the drivers are incorrectly wired in one speaker, this could damage imaging while not obviously being out of phase (I've seen speakers with such internal wiring issues).

Still, my bet is that it is a speaker placement issue. IT sometimes takes a whole lot of experimentation to find a good spot. I've seen a few rooms where a really good spot just did not seem to be available, but even there, persistence at least yielded the best of a bad situation.
My bet is that the coffee table between the speaker and listening position is a major problem area. If it cannot be moved elsewhere, I would at least put things on the table to diffuse the reflection, such as magazines, art objects, some kind of cloth covering, etc.

As far as room treatment, most of the serious audio treatments are pretty ugly and intrusive. Wall coverings (tapestries) on large, flat surfaces do a really good job with higher frequencies and can actually look good too. Some people also used potted plants in corners of the room to act as diffusers (I personally have not tried this, I use stacks of 16" ASC tube traps).

I would certainly hold off on trying alternative speakers/gear. Your speakers should be good at imaging, and if they are not, the problem most likely lies elsewhere. I would concentrate on trying different placement and geometry (toe-in, angle between the speakers and the listener, backwards tilt, etc.).
Good to hear that things are looking up. I am not surprised that No. 3 worked best. With the kind of spread you had, you probably had a big hole in the middle of the stereo image. Most listeners seem to prefer a triangle, defined by the center of the speaker to center of speaker and to the listener's head, that is and equilateral triangle or narrower than an equilateral triangle. So, if you are seven feet from each speaker, the centers of the speakers should be 7ft apart or less. If the center image is still to diffused, more toe-in will help.
Because of the shape of the baffle and the placement of the drivers (tweeter over the bass unit), speakers have an asymmetrical radiation pattern as far as height dispersion pattern. If the tweeter is too high, you could tilt the speaker forward, but, that may not have the same result as tilting the speaker backwards if the the tweeter were too low. In other words, it may work or it may cause other problems. You need to give that a shot, as well as lowering the speaker and either have it fire straight or even tilted up a little. A lot of stand mounted speakers are "voiced" to be on lower stands with the speaker tilted slightly up.