@mahgister....+1...You’re right, overall...
Each of us has their own approach to the conundrum, so you’re left preaching to the crowd. And well aware of the impact that makes for the greater part in this local focal locus...
*J blows a smoke ring* Lasts about that long, with for the most part as much impact....
...but I try to be ’diplomatic’ about things in general...;) Thank you my friend... I hope i could have your wit and wise understanding, i must not forget your more diplomatic demeanor than mine.... I am too rough on the corner and lack humor, but i only want other to think about the simple basic fact: «Dont upgrade anything before embedding them all...» I read you always with pleasure since the first time... Thanks to be so understanding in all sense of the word.... My deepest regards... |
The recording is resolved by the system+room, but the system +room reveal his own inner working in resolving the source...
People speaks as if the dac has the only resolving power, or the turntable, or the speakers, but it is the system+room that resolve the recording...
People speaks like the speakers could have too much "revealing", too much details, or resolution, but it is the speakers+room that reveal ,not only the recording ,but the way the room deliver it....Speaking of "revealing" about bad designed speakers is not a good use of the word.....
Then there is a difference and a balance between "resolving" and "revealing"....Resolving refer to the original acoustic of the recorded initial musical event, revealing refer to his recreation by the system+room...
The ears/brain distinguished the 2 acoustical spaces, and all audio acoustical science is the art of educating the ears to use these 2 acoustical dimensions in the same moment...
But the acoustic of a room is NOT the acoustic of a musical hall... Secondary reflections plays an active part in a small room and contrary to some sayings not a negative one at all if we know how to use them.... Then the Active acoustical controls can play an important role in the way we use the complex interplay between direct sound and reflections.... Passive materials treatment is not enough contrary of what is said in most audio thread..... This is my last discovery....
By the way nothing is more important than the room acoustic, no electronic component do much without the room.... But most people dont know that because they dont have any comparison point...
I have one and no system is at his utmost level without room controls...Nevermind the price....Even if you are in near listening.... This is a myth to think that in near listening the role plays by the room is diminished and played down.... This is rubbish but people have no comparison point with any experiments....
A small room is a very complex acoustical space and NO computer can use it and compensate for all the content and topology, because too much non linear variables are coupled.... We need the ears to work one step at a time the active controls that will make possible a very good S. Q. The active controls gives a feed back for the ears to work with one step at a time in each different and specific room....We can compute the nodes to put passive materials in a room, but active devices need to be located where the ears guide us to put them....
Only active controls work with the limitations proper to each different audio system and can compensate for them(dac,amplifier, speakers)...Passive materials work identically for all audio systems.... This is a very important difference unknown to most..
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Sounds like you have a semantics problem specifically associated with speakers YOU don’t like. What is YOUR suggestion for the correct wording to use in order to describe undefined speakers you probably won’t like? You miss the point completely... I dont speak about speakers i dont like.... I try to explain a complex situation in the simplest words... Contrary to your misconception, almost all speakers can sound good rightfully embed in the house and room if they are paired with the right amplifier and dac... Most speakers that sound bad are badly linked to the wrong piece of equipment for them and/or wrongly embed in their mechanical, electrical, and acoustical dimensions ...(except for some badly designed speakers for sure) Now there is almost no speakers rightly designed i will not like AFTER embedding them and AFTER pairing them with a good dac and amp.(Even if i had my preference like everybody for the best quality speakers) Liking some branded speakers is not like liking and tasting a brand of cheese....You must know how to use and embed the speakers, and then you must know how to deal with the resolving power and revealing power balance of the speakers in specific house /room/positions. If the speakers is a stick, it has 2 ends, he resolve at one end and reveal at the other end.... :) Or more simply put: Speakers, room and ears are only one organ...... |
The dac/amplifier/ speakers resolve,
but the speakers/room reveal.
The resolving and the revealing are 2 properties of speakers that must be distinguished....
The resolving potential is in relation to "generic" pre-designed components in the speakers,
the revealing potential is in relation to " specific" working of the mechanical structure of the speakers, not only the electronical or electrical one, in the room....
The resolving is defined in relation to the source, the revealing is defined in relation with the room’s embeddings....
Engineering science like medecine is an art, the art of the trade-off....
:) |
Resolving the information encoded in a cd and revealing it "in some way" through a room for example, is not the same thing when we speak about speakers....
The speakers has a designed resolving power, but it cannot manifest it in the heaven of idea, he must be in a specific house...In this sense the speakers is able to resolve something coming from the amp and dac, but it will manifest and be revealed through the mechanical structural properties of the speakers in a specific room ....
The 2 are linked but we must distinguish them to understand something beyond small talk....
Distinguishing something without separating it, this is call thinking ....
« Better a jam audio than a jam brain»-Groucho Marx :)
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It seems nobody understand what i speak about distinguishing "revealing" and "resolving"...
Speakers are in an audio chain linked with multiple electronic components, they NEVER exist ideally and "generically" only, they comes from the sky of "generic" design on the earth of your "specific" room, and then they are + or - resolving in relation to the recording source and reveal all that plays against or for a better S.Q. coming from their link to other electronic components, coming also from the mechanical, electrical. and acoustical embeddings...We listen to, not only to a recording, not only to some speakers, not only to our gear, but to our room and house....
Then speaking of different speakers brand name properties had a limit: your house is not mine and any speakers will resolve differently the same files or cd and will reveal in his own way the difference between these 2 houses...
There is differences ,and big one, between different speakers branded name, but not one sound the same in different house and embeddings...
Then, is an absolute perfect resolving of the files or cd possible? No, and it is not desirable at all...
What is revealed by speakers? The " colored" different ways in which they manifest a resolving power in different environments and linked with different gear, rightly embed or not....
Then there is always a trade-off between resolving and revealing....Even if the speakers is specifically designed to be resolving, his embeddings and link with other gear, will manifest this in variable degrees or colors...
The "living" quality of a set of speakers is the result of this trade-off.. Trade-off between his "generic" properties and the "specific" manifested one...
I hope this was clear because this is my experience.... :)
Confusing "resolving" and "revealing" put us in the marketing discourse that sells products and makes no sense at all...
If i say that my Mission speakers are more resolving than your speakers, my discourse made no sense, except advocating for my favorite brand name... Even if this is true by the measured virtues of the "generic" design and conception, this is a half truth, because a less resolving designed speakers will resolve better in a better embedding sometimes, than a more resolving designed speakers in a bad embeddings...
:)
In a last word, "resolving" is only one of the properties of a good speaker, his "revealing" flexibility and adaptability relatively to any embeddings is another one, and a more "musical" one.... |
Try to be more subtle my friend.... Sarcasm is an art.....You seems to want to be a professional entertainer but it is a bit boring....Others perhaps like that, call for a vote, and if you win, i will go..... :)
Myself i am a bit too serious then i apologize to you.... But i dont like laughing at the expanse of others.... I prefer discussions....
My best to you..... |
Sounds like a lot of audiophiles are frustrated having not achieved success in getting that revealing speaker, being bought or homemade, so they attribute it to other factors, which is a mistake. It’s a variation on The Fox and the Sour Grapes.
You read the thread a bit too swiftly..... :) I was distinguishing "revealing" and "resolving" because the most resolving speakers in the world will reveal some needing controls in the 3 embeddings and not only defects in the recording source materials.... What you call "other factors", meaning non important one, because you are being too carried away by the hope to have bought the best speakers you can (upgrade urge to solution a complex audio problem or evacuate it under the wished brand so called ideal product) are the most important factors in audio experience, not only the ideal design of a pair of speakers.... Buying better gear does not implicate that they would be correctly embedded by the magical property of the speakers design........ But i dont doubt that in a way or in another, your future "resolving" speakers will "reveal " to you the defects needed to be adress in your 3 embeddings and not only from your source recordings cd or vinyl.... And to design a "resolving" speakers even the best one is also and always a trade-off.... Audio, being an empirical endeavour, and not reducible to electronic design, electric engineering, or acoustical engineering,or mechanical engineering, rather encompassing all that with our specific ears history, is the art of trade-off.... Simple ready made solutions to all audio problems dont exist except for the marketing companies that sell them .... It is not my road..... :) My best to you from a fox who has eaten already no so sour grapes of his own.... :) |
No i was giving my own definition and absolutely not criticizing you....I thank you for giving to me the opportunity to explain myself.... We perfectly understand one another i think....You were clear yes, and i seize this moment for clarifying my own experience.... I apologize if my post has suggest the contrary...It was not my intention at all....I only wanted to elaborate about the term "embeddings"....
I’ve never heard the term, "embedding" applied. Does make sense.
My best to you |
@mahgister- The article does mention clean (I’d add ample) AC and vibration control, which, "aided" the author in obtaining greater system resolution. Though I’ve always considered both those and room acoustics (per Sabin, etc) primary, far as setting up either a live venue, or home listening room; I’ve never heard the term, "embedding" applied. Does make sense. It’s been my experience; only after those are correctly addressed/implemented, can one appreciate the improvements (ie: resolved/revealed microdynamics) so many of the oft-argued about components or, "tweaks" offer. Happy listening! "Embeddings" is a word for describing this triple necessary interaction where any electronic component is immersed in and work with... Embeddings controls do no refer to "tweaks", no tweak solve the problem by itself... A bunch of tweaks does not add to a method... The method is an experimental listenings journey, implying many devices or materials specifically created for one "specific" need (room house audio system and ears) ... "Generic" costly tweaks are not my way....I prefer "specific" homemade solutions adjusted to my ears and material conditions in my house.... My best to you rodman.... |
PEople make things much harder and more complicated than they often need be. In reality in serious matters people always simplify or try to simplify a very much complex interaction impossible to understand completely.... In trivial matters people always complicate the situation tough.... Audio is a complex and serious matter....Discussion about audio are often more trivial tough.... :) |
"Revealing" is for me what a good audio system reveals from itself, through the room acoustic, through the noise floor level, and through mechanical influences....
"Resolving" is more linked to the source recording and his translation by the embedded audio system.....
Then an audio system reveal something of itself, of the room and of the house, through his resolving power "working" in his own way to be true to the recording source....
There is always a balance between the revealing and the resolving peower.... No speakers can resolve "per se" in the absolute without revealing some intrinsic limitations of his own design and at the same time extrinsic one linked to the gear, room, house etc...
This is why i speak about a "living" sound, between an " ideal" neutral and a "bad" coloration.... Neutral is not always good, and coloration not always bad, when you inhabit specific conditions....
There is a trade-off between generic design and specific conditions..... |
mahgister - the voicing of the speaker for a particular sized environment is also a form of embedding, even without room treatment. It’s not just the measurement of the frequency response coming out of the loudspeaker, it’s an understanding of a good average fit for a general room size for the loudspeaker.
For sure you are right rick....This come with the "generic" final design of the speakers....
The room, the electronics, the recording, is very much more pronounced and unveiled, by a highly resolving loudspeaker (whatever type it is) and it can be more or less flattering or very much not so.
This is my experience.... But my system being good is not at the highest design top quality in the market....Like most of us.... My sound is"living" in this interval between the highest resolution and some coloration coming from all the parts and even from my room...I lives well with this imperfection, and i call that "living" sound....This is the most many of us can wait for with their actual audio system....Totally resolving system in a perfect room is out of the purse of most....It is a theoretical concept rarely manifested with an audio system...In real life we listen to "living" sound, never perfectly resolving one...And in any normal audio system, we listen to some aspect of a recording slightly more than to some other aspects... There is a slight unbalance like in real life... Except for very high end speakers in a designed room, with a low noise floor level and no mechanical vibrations uncontrolled... In my many experiments in listenings what i listened to was this INTERLINK between the recording, the electronics, the electrical grid, the mechanical grid, and the acoustic of my room...In my experiments in listenings i play with device that will improve this interlink.... We cannot change the quality of the basic electronic we own.... Only make it able to reach his potential.... No embedding will gives to someone the sound quality of a top level component with a low level one.... But The embedding of an audio system rightfully done gives more sometimes than most of the so called upgrade.... |
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/tas/261/editorial.htm
Short article but right for me....Thanks rodman.... I never own a system so resolving tough, even rightly embed.... There exist a scale of hi-fi quality for sure.... My system tough gives me a hint of what he described, then it must be rightfully embed indeed: «
In fact, higher resolution renders greater tonal saturation, warmth, and instrumental body by virtue of revealing the timbral micro-structure, which only contributes to a sense of realism and life. Instrumental textures simply sound more like the real thing when the system accurately portrays the instrument's harmonic and dynamic structure in all its finely textured glory. Unfortunately, it's these low-level signal components that are the most fragile and easiest to lose. Resolution is shaved off in every stage of the chain, from tonearm resonances, to electronics, to the mechanical structures in transducers. » To the mechanical embedding he speak about, i will add the electrical embedding and the powerful acoustical one.... |
The "generic" sound of speakers out of a "specific" room makes no more sense to me...
For sure Tannoy dual gold and Magneplanar for example has a sound of their own very different of one another.... Are they revealing? Yes if they are specifically embed rightfully.... Will they reveal the same thing? No not at all...
I want speakers that gives me the impression of a musical sound living presence, timbre+imaging...And "living" is not colored, nor neutral, it is a living interval between these 2....
"Revealing" remind me of the quality linked to microscope...
Music is first about a perceived wholeness not about micro details first or foremost.... |
