Most Important, Unloved Cable...

Wow, I guess I didn’t realize there were so many Crusader Rabbits on this forum. Let the Crusades begin! 🐇🐇🐇🐇. Look out for the rabbit droppings! 

Ouch! Another name caller with no real argument enters the fray. Let's get it together, people. Heck, I don’t even use cables. Is that wrong? And does that mean I can’t post on this thread? 😀 Should I ban myself?

Cut me some slack, Jack. I know that's what you said. And I responded by pointing out....oh, never mind!

jinjuku
Why Pink? Quite offensive, I’d say. : )
Don’t color shame my Invisible Pink Unicorn Buddy. He’s having a hard enough time with the naysayers that would like some evidence other then my and a few 100 thousand other peoples say so.

>>>>>>Yeah, right. Voting is real scientific. 😀 On the other hand I would not be surprised if there were 100 thousand who are somewhat hearing impaired 👂🏻and/or all thumbs. 👎🏻

Jujistu
I can leap tall buildings in a single bound but it wouldn’t be scientifically significant even if you asked me to prove it to so I don’t bother with it. Need a rather large N of people jumping buildings for my claim to be even relevant.

>>>>>>That’s quite a silly argument. Kind of what I’ve come to expect from naysayers, if I can speak frankly. 😁

shadorne
Geoff,

The onus is on the person making wild claims to provide proof. If someone else says it is a scam then those making the wild claim should simply provide proof to the contrary.

That is how science works. Jinjuku should have been challenged and easily proved wrong a long time ago( if any of the wild cable claims were the least bit true).

Those who are justifiably skeptical do not have to provide proof that the wildest claims are indeed bogus. Every significant leap in technology comes with a repeatible demonstration to convince others of the new scientific discovery.

>>>>>>Uh, give me a break. This is a hobby, not some pretend science project or peer review or any such thing. There is no audio Oversight Committee and we don't follow AES rules or any such thing. I'm afraid we are on our own. There is no onus on anyone for anything. Not for the claimants not for the naysayers. That’s in your head. That’s what naysayers have been using for decades trying to win the same argument. No one has to prove anything or back up claims. They don't even have make claims or provide explanations. Those are all old wives' tales. maybe some people are skeptical in the real sense of the word, you know, they actually investigate things and are curious about things, but most here are just pretending to be skeptics. They're actually pseudo skeptics. No offense intended.

Geez, that’s the best you guys can come up with? Expectation bias? 😬 Give me a break. I can give you at least five reasons off the top of my head why negative results don’t mean anything. I was the Government witness for the testing and evaluator of test results for a multi billion dollar critical communications project. Cables are merely child’s play. Cut me some slack, Jack.

Anyone who believes negative results can be used to prove anything is a ____________. If negative results meant anything every Yahoo in the world would be claiming this cable is a scam, that fuse is a scam, this tweak is a scam, that tweak is a scam, etc. Follow? I mean, they already do that, now they’re trying to dress up their statements in some sort of scientific finery. You can paint a turkey different colors, it’s still a turkey. 🦃 When someone wants to join the debate and get noticed but doesn't have a real argument that's usually when the name calling starts. 😄

The test has no value for the claimant either.but you are free to believe whatever you want to.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. One test means nothing. Blind test, ABA, AB, what have you. A test cannot prove anything, but it certainly cannot prove that there are no differences among cables if the results are negative. Too many things can go wrong, even when everyone is on the up and up and trying to be thorough, etc. Geez, even disrupting the connections when unplugging and plugging cables during testing changes the whole playing field. Come on, people! No offense to anyone testing but don’t try to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes.

90% of "Einstein quotes" he never actually said, maybe especially the one quoted. The reason I say that is because it wouldn’t make sense to have the sign wrong in his famous equation since the equation represented the equivalency of mass and energy. It would be analogous to saying I got the sign wrong for the expression,

a box of rocks = fire

and wrote,

a box of rocks = - fire

It’s still the same idea.

Also, I probably wouldn’t call electrons that move at the snail’s pace of 1 cm/hour "flowing." Nor would I say they were "emerging" from anywhere. They are already there.

Carry on. Smoke if ya got em.

Would it be presumptuous of us to expect an apology from jujitsu after his little get together? 😛

willemj, you mentioned on some thread here you had a second system in your study. Can I suggest you might have been better off if you had not listened to quite so much music there and had used that particular room for the purpose it was intended? You might consider adding Little Miss Manners to the library in your study.

shadorne wrote,

"My setup isn’t affected audibly by cables but I believe others have encountered this phenomenon."

Too funny!! 😀 That deserves the Laughing Goat Award for the funniest post of the week. 🐐

Jujitsu wrote,

"Have me out and I’ll help you regurgitate them if it already isn’t terminal :-)"

Good comeback. Cough, cough. By the way, congrats on the almost complete sentence. 😛

I don’t know anything about yellow paint but can I suggest someone has been sneaking from the bottle of stupid pills? 💊

Did someone forget to put out the Roach Motels last night? 

shadorne

@jinjuku

"All you will ever get here is evasiveness.

It is exactly the same that Randi found.

When challenged hucksters are full of bravado and then they get even louder and louder about how confident they are."

>>>>Whoa! What? Are you insane? I was the subject of Randi’s trolling in five count em five of his weekly blogs. He went after me for the clock, he went after me for the Intelligent Chip and he went after me for the Teleportation Tweak. Randi was only interested in one thing. Getting attention. As a former Las Vegas magician he was skilled in drumming up an audience. But Randi had no interest whatsoever in high end audio, or low end audio for that matter. Except if it got him some attention. One assumes the business of going after dowsers and spoon benders was rapidly drying up. His whole James Randi Education Foundation schtick was founded on the idea of going after the paranormal. That’s why Johnny Carson left him a million bucks, to found the "education foundation." To go after charlatans and ghost busters. Not to go after audiophiles. Hel-loo! But, as they say in Paree, any port in a storm. ⛈ ⛈

How anyone can equate high end audio with the paranormal is just plane crazy. I even had one of Randi’s goons threaten to kick my you know what. I even had one of his goon’s challenge me to a karate fight on board the Randi yatch down in the Caribbean. I declined the offer as I did not wish to hurt the poor fellow. The trouble with pseudo skeptics is they’re not equipped to deal with reality. It’s all about attention, you know, like the YouTube video currently under discussion. 😛

jinjuku
The plural of anecdotal is not data.

It’s not dotard, either.

dynaquest4
Just to remind what this discussion is about and why "we" disagree with esoteric, expensive Ethernet cable being able to actually IMPROVE the sound quality of a streamed audio program over a basic spec cable...it is this.

When you have spent (for example) $40,000 on your speakers and another $50,000 on playback delivery and amplification equipment, you have already demonstrated that you are compulsive in this hobby. Perhaps you have no other interests or entertainment outlets. Like the auto-geek squeezing a few more horsepower out of a high performance engine, you seek any avenue (like expensive cables) to ”make it better." It is in this audio zone (where true performance cannot be measured) that expectation bias rules. Those that understand it, temper their follow on purchases with good judgement. Those that do not, bleed from their wallet and refuse to accept that there are product manufactures that understand you, know you are an easy mark and take advantage of your naivety.

>>>>>If you object to the high cost of some peoples' systems go on Dr. Phil. This debate has nothing to do with the cost of systems. If you had been following the thread you would have seen that many, if not most systems, on which folks actually heard differences for Ethernet cables were not expensive ones. So that’s only a Strawman argument, a logical fallacy. Expectation bias can be controlled through careful testing. So that argument can be thrown out as well. Looks like you struck out again. Better luck next time, Slugger!

Gosh, that's fascinating.

shadorne

@geoffkait

Just a heads up you misquoted me.

I said "Some" not "All"

Whatever. You cannot prove it, in any case, either some or all are explained by placebos. You also claimed many of the rest of the positive results were probably equipment issues, which you can’t prove, either. It’s just the usual ridiculous crap naysayers come up with to try to save face. One assumes you would agree, however, that the remaining positive results, subtracting the ones you claim are placebos and the ones you claim are equipment issues, are real positive results. Well, now we’re getting somewhere! 😄

shadorne wrote,

"I was totally unable to hear any differences on any of the digital inputs on my DAC (USB, optical, coax) with or without an audio bridge (Singxer SU 1)."

You don't say? 😄

shadorne wrote,

"All of the anecdotal reports are pure placebo (result of parting with $700) effect but many others are actual equipment issues that happen to be identified or brought to a users attention when swapping out cables."

You say placebo. I say evidence. I win. Take two placebos and see me in the morning.

""I don't see, nor have seen any credible hypothesis promoted, how a $700 cable with 8 metal conductors and shield (either floated, full/partial tied) would mitigate this noise vs another like built, 8 metal conductors and shield (either floated, full/partial tied) where they both pass what the standards body deems as in spec. "

So, you haven't seen one. Who cares?

Yeah, high end audio equipment that is not well made. That makes a whole lot of sense. 😳

dynaquest wrote,

"Geoff chastises for "appealing to authority" and then he immediately turns around and "appeals" the the "authority" of three, random, unidentified cable reviewers. Who, since they said the cable made a huge difference, it must therefore be true. Baloney."

>>>>>>You don’t even know what an appeal to authority is, do you? You don’t know what empirical evidence is either as we shall see below.

Then dynaquest wrote,

""Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence." Which Geoff does not."

>>>>But I do have access to empirical evidence. I just provided it. Hel-loo! You know, the 3 guys without impaired hearing. Duh! You apparently don’t know what empirical evidence is, either. That's two strikes. ⚾️ ⚾️ I can throw them slower for you, just let me know.

Geoffkait: "I once had coffee at a diner in NYC that boasted World’s Best Coffee."

To which jujitsu replied,

"For a purported expert of what constitutes valid testing you sure don’t understand the difference between an entirely subjective claim (taste) with objective ones like increased sound stage, stereo separation, more defined highs etc..."

>>>>>As someone pointed out already those audio characteristics are not objective. I already addressed subjective characteristics in two posts. To clarify what I am referring to, and avoid confusion, the parameters I described included separation of instruments which of course is not to be confused with channel separation. I also included musicality, presence, air and sweetness. No one would dispute that some audio parameters CAN be measured, channel separation, frequency response, dynamic range to name three.

Now if Chord simply said "The world’s best sounding cable" they would have been fine.

I feel like the Ben Shapiro of Audio.

>>>>>You might feel like the Ben Shapiro of Audio but you sound like the Ben Stiller of Audio.

shadorne
@geoffkait

Sigh! Yes of course digital propagates as an analog signal. The key is to understand that the threshold between a 1 or a Zero is so large and that checksum and other additional packet error checking information allows a packet of digital data to arrive in the memory of downstream devices perfectly.

If digital was not such an incredibly robust method of data storage and transmission then internet and computers and software would not function at all. What errors we do encounter are down to hardware or programming errors in the devices and switches themselves and not the ethernet wires which work to spec or don't work (in which case a dropout can occur).

>>>>That's pretty much the same ridiculous argument the CD industry has been cramming down our throats for the past 35 years. Perfect Sound Forever. But obviously the error detection/correction for CD is not perfect. That's why you can improve CD playback so much. Why should I believe any digital device is perfect just because it's digital? 

shadorne
Since there is no audio clock timing information conveyed over an ethernet cable it can’t make any difference at all UNLESS your gear is crap (something extraneous affected by the cable used like grounding or load or digital noise related crosstalk on to the audio signal). Same for an identical file streamed on the internet halfway across the world or one from your local server.

Why can’t folks understand this?

>>>>Uh, there is no clock timing information conveyed over a fuse that is located right where the AC comes into the amplifier, either. Yet the fuse is directional. Imagine that! 😳
So much for that theory. Next!

Ouch! That hurts, Shadorne! That’s really interesting but did you know that the digital cable between the CD player and the amp, you know, the one that carries digital data is directional? Bet ya didn’t. 😄 Digital, schmigital. The signal propagates just like an analog signal. You know, at near light speed. Since it is made up of photons. Have you been sleeping in class again, Shadrack?

 

Geoffkait: Whoa! Easy, big fella. I’m not talking about shielded cables.

to which jujitsu replied,

"If it's not about the shield on a STP Ethernet cable, then it's not going to be anything else.

Ethernet is either wired TIA586A or TIA586B straight through, or 586A on one end 586B on the other end for cross over.

Most horizontal run will be CCA, patch is stranded (for better strain resistance and flexibility). Save yourself the laughable argument with grain structure, crystalline structure, etc...

Ethernet is bidirectional."

>>>>>>All wire is bidirectional inasmuch as one can send voice and data over it in either direction. But as fate would have it wire is audibly better in one direction than the other. Even shielded cable that is "directional" sonically according to the shield terminations points is also "directional" sonically according to the direction of the copper conductor. So, it would help to keep track of both aspects of the cable construction. Follow?

He who laughs last laughs best. 😄

Geoffkait: "One assumes jinjuku would attempt to debunk wire directionality by claiming that data transfer is not corrupted or changed when the cables are reversed so therefore wire directionality doesn’t exist."

To which jinjuku replied,

"Ethernet cables aren’t directional though... And before you go talking about STP cabling, don’t talk about it in a vacuum, because how the shield is tied is dependent on the installation environment.

You really have no clue what you are talking about."

Whoa! Easy, big fella. I’m not talking about shielded cables, Mr. Smarty Pants. Obviously you didn’t get the memo. This is what happens when some pseudo skeptic from somewhere out of the blue pops in and pops off. 🍾 This is going to be fun but I’m not saying for whom. 😬

Eggs ackly! So are sweetness, presence, air and venue recognition. ⛪️

jinjuku
Here’s another video where I debunk WireWorlds Q/A.

Directly address their Triboelectric B.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pWvJwQOPiY

I hate to judge before all the facts are in but jinjuku’s argument is the same ridiculous argument that naysayers have been using for years attempting to explain why power cords cannot influence the sound, and why there can be no audible difference among power cords, since the last four feet of cable can’t correct the problems in the miles of cable from the power company to the transformer or from the transformer to the wall outlet. We get the same sort of naysayer argument for CDs too - I.e., that nothing can change the sound on the CD because the data is physical and error correction fixes any errors that occur while the laser reads the data. So, it appears jinjuku just tossed up another nothing burger. 🍔

One assumes jinjuku would attempt to debunk wire directionality by claiming that data transfer is not corrupted or changed when the cables are reversed so therefore wire directionality doesn't exist. 😄

Apparently someone objected to Chord’s use of hyperbole. Well, La Dee Dah! Judge Judy calls that puffing. Completely legal. I once had coffee at a diner in NYC that boasted World’s Best Coffee. Does that justify a lawsuit? Only in a naysayer’s cute little daydream. 🍦 If we had lawsuits for every time some naysayer objected to what he perceived as hyperbole or too expensive or preposterous the courts would be backed up from here to next Tuesday. That’s what is known over here as a nothing burger. 🍔

Birds of a feather flock together. 🦃 🦃 🦃

Whoa!! Hey! What the ding dong?! Did someone forget to put out the Roach Motels last night? 🏣 🏣

shadorne, your humorous attitude notwithstanding, if what you’re saying was actually true, which it’s not (rpt not), then people would be suing aftermarket fuse companies that sell non UL listed fuses. Of course, no one is. No one has even tried to sue me for the Teleportation Tweak. Whew, that was a close call! Why don't you see any lawsuits over high end tweaks? Because it’s not possible to prove some suspicious looking audio tweak doesn’t work. Especially in a court of law. Follow?

So, getting back to the case in UK, I’m sure willemj is not telling the whole story for whatever reason. If it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. Audio is by its very nature subjective. One person gets good results, another person doesn’t. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. 🍪

Sorry, either you’re not telling the whole story or that’s the silliest thing I ever heard. Was the magistrate a hardcore pseudo skeptic? 😬

Actually, in the real world, claims do not (rpt not) have to be substantiated, proven or any such thing. Products do not (rpt not) have to be proven to work, they do not (rpt not) have to be explained. Measurements are not (rpt not) required. Those are all old wives’ tales. Have fun in your pseudo skeptic's daydream. 🍭

Whoa! What's this, the attack of the Audio Peer Review Committee? 🦃 🦃 🦃

willemj
Well, here for the measurements:
http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/02/measurements-intercontinental-internet.html
http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/02/measurements-ethernet-cables-and-audio.html

willemj, would it be fair to say without looking more closely at the fine details of those tests, the take-away is things that measure the same also sound the same? Is that what you would have us believe? No wonder the cable controversy has been going on without letup for 40 years.

jujitsu wrote,

"I laugh every time I see someone say something like the above.

Because Randi didn’t get 1000 mystical spoon benders to test, so when he exposed Uri Geller for the charlatan that he is, it’s not really valid and we hold out the possibility that people can actually bend spoons with their mind. Incredible ’logic’.

Here’s the thing: You aren’t aural savants. You’re aural spoon benders.

The real reason that you will not sit for a bias controlled evaluation is that when you crash and burn, and you most certainly will, EVERYTHING you have an opinion about when it comes to the audibility of equipment will be worthless.

When you’ve been exposed either making stuff up or hallucinating then you can’t be trusted."

>>>>>>jujitsu, your obvious contempt for audiophiles and the whole scientific method notwithstanding, the real reason The Amazing Randi never (rpt never) lost a Million Dollar Challenge was because the test protocol was obviously slanted to favor Randi. And to favor him to such an extent he virtually couldn’t loose. It was rigged every which way to Sunday. That’s what Wellfed found out dealing with the stacked deck of James Randi Education Foundation when he agreed to take the Million Dollar Challenge for the Intelligent Chip, the little orange quantum thingie that is placed on top of a CD player for improving the sound of the disc. (I have to respect that Randi had Kramer, formerly of Butthole Surfers rock group, coordinate the blind test of the Intelligent Chip.)

So did Michael Fremer, of Stereophile, whilst negotiating with Randi’s crew for a $20K high end cable test, discover it’s not an even playing field. Let me give some examples, gentle readers. In the case of the Million Dollar Challenge for the Intelligent Chip Wellfed was expected to perform the test at some location other than his own house and on a system of Randi’s choosing. I.e., some unfamiliar God knows what system. Keep in mind Randi nor any of his crew were audiophiles. Also, the CDs could not be treated a priori, which would have been beneficial to Wellfed since differences with the Intelligent Chip would presumably be easier to detect. There was also a dispute how many people from Randi’s crew were to have been present at the test. Finally Wellfed would have had to guess correctly 10 out of 10 consecutive trials. Give me break!

Oh, it can be done to cabling. And doing it to cables prior to Cryo improves the effectiveness of Cryo in terms of sound quality. 

No matter how much you have in the end you could have had even more if you had started out with more. - old audio axiom

I believe in the influence of human consciousness and the subconscious on water - among other things - especially in relation to the formation of ice crystals of water, not only when exposed directly to specific spoken words and phrases or thoughts but also specific written messages. But this is very different from what you referred to, water memory. My Morphic Message Labels, which influence sound, would be quite capable of influencing how ice crystals form. ❄️ ❄️ ❄️

Atlaudio353
geoffkait: "...going after spoon benders and ghost whisperers."

So you admit to being in league with charlatans?

>>>>If I was I wouldn’t admit to it. Unless it benefitted me somehow, naturally. 💰 💰

It’s funny how people take naysayers sooo seriously, as if they have legitimate arguments. It’s like saying The Amazing Randi just has a difference of opinion about high end cables or that he’s just skeptical that the Intelligent Chip works. Give me a break. It’s nothing of the kind. It’s just that people get a lot of pleasure going after audiophiles. Just like they do going after spoon benders and ghost whisperers. 👻 You’ve seen cats tease dogs, right? Same thing.🐩

jinjuku
This person" is singular so the correct word is his. Singular possessive. Case closed.

"Their, them, themselves, they (as singular pronouns)
Many English speakers believe that using the plural pronouns they, them, themselves, and their in gender-neutral singular constructions is incorrect. For example, these people would consider the them in “call a friend and ask them to come over” to be wrong because them by definition refers to multiple people, whereas in this clause its antecedent (a friend) is singular.

But there are problems with this view."

You are inferring a gender when it hasn’t been provided to you. Keep on swinging and missing.

>>>>Again with the logical fallacies. English must be your second language. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Except when it comes to English grammar. 

"Knowledge is defined as everything that’s left after you subtract out all the stuff you forgot from school." - old audiophile axiom

shadorne wrote,

"Jinjuku presented a difference in opinion on the audibility of Ethernet cables and was actually willing to challenge others to test the differences in the system of choice of those making the wild claims. All harmless stuff to me. The fact that no test will happen simply adds more weight to the view that the audibility of differences are pretty small or subtle, if any."

Whoa! Huh? Difference of opinion? That’s exactly the same way that The Amazing Randi presented his Million Dollar Challenge to audiophiles to pass a double blind test for expensive cables and the Intelligent Chip. What made the whole thing so preposterous is that The Amazing Randi and his band of merry skeptics previously made a career out of challenging folks who claimed to have paranormal abilities, you know like Uri Geller, the famous spoon bender. And dowsers! spiritualists, ghost chasers, etc. Why he chose to go after audiophiles is anyone’s guess. Although, I can pretty much guess. Whereas The Anazing Randi had deep pockets courtesy of Johnny Carson one assumes jujitsu doesn’t have such rich friends in high places.

shadorne wrote, 

"Ah yes the bait and switch technique. People don't like the challenging idea that claimed results aren't audible enough to be tested - so now they protest about the use of pronouns, suggest that this is some kind of Nigerian scam and self proclaim that the thread is dead!"

>>>>>>Whoa! Huh?! Your reading comprehension skills are about the same level as jujitsu. Did you both go to the same school? You know, when you put words in other people's mouths it's called a Strawman argument, a logical fallacy. Better luck next time.

then, shadorne wrote,

"These are all smoke and mirrors from what has been demonstrated here: when challenged nobody is willing to stand behind their claims of audible differences!"

>>>>>No, what is clear, however, is that pseudo skeptics won't even test their own ridiculous claims. Real skeptics would at least make some modicum of effort to get to the bottom of things. Pseudo skeptics never do. They keep waiting for someone else to do it then complain when nobody does anything. So, what else is new?😳