M-Lores or Aon 3: bass/imaging


Ok, yet another thread along the lines of "which speakers should I buy?" (I've read a few thousand of them lately). But my question is really coming from the fact that I've never owned floor-standers before. So I'm sort of paralyzed by the fact that I like the idea of the Tekton Mini-Lores--straight-ahead good design--but I can't audition them. "Money back" -$120 total shipping isn't my idea of money back, on my salary... On the other side of the ring currently are the Golden Ear Aons, which claim the same 38Hz bass response. So, opinions and experiences from people with a deeper background with both kinds of speakers is welcome. If not experience with these models, then experience with the underlying technologies. I'm not sure whether or not conventional wisdom regarding floorstanders vs. bookshelves applies in 2013 with these designs.

Context:
1) I'm running a class-D (solid-state-sounding Icepower) amp, and like it a lot. My listening level is only about 82dB at distance, slow-weighted peaks on an SPL meter. So no need to shake the house. Still, 87dB sensitivity seems a good minimum to be safe. This makes some contenders marginal (Dynaudio, Kef, PSB, Ascend). It suggests Tekton and Golden Ear, in particular, although I'm mainly drawn to both for their bass response spec and other design features.
2) This system will be 2-channel music only. A main goal is to switch the subwoofer off for good, since I've never liked the amount of fiddling I've had to do and haven't ever been entirely comfortable with the result.
3) I'm a sucker for a vast sound stage and good imaging, not too far back (my current Axiom M2v2 speakers put the sound stage someplace way back in the neighbor's house). I also tend to be analytical in most things.
4. Low-E on a bass guitar is about 41Hz, I've read, so this is a good target for the bass freq I'm looking to nail. I want it defined and balanced, not accentuated. But I don't want it just "implied" through harmonics (or else the sub stays on).
5. I've always put on headphones when I want to hear detail, having never owned really top-shelf speakers. I can still do that if I get something really fun from the speakers as a trade off for less detail.

Questions:
1) Reading between the lines, it seems like bass response on floor-standers is reported honestly, while on bookshelves a "38Hz" rating or the like seems really to mean roll off below 60Hz. Is that basically how it goes? E.g., Mini-lores will be flat at 38Hz while Golden Ear Aon 3 would be (to make up a number) like -9dB at 38Hz? The Aons seem to rely on wall reflections to get that bass to you, which might be perfectly fine.
2) Both imaging and air-moving bass are about driver size--or so I've read, and it makes obvious sense. Aon 3 claims 7" mid-range driver; Mini-Lore = 8" wideband driver. Seems pretty close... Comments on either or both of these speakers, based either on personal experience or informed supposition? "They" say the mini-lores are "not the most resolving speaker" etc. Hedge, hedge. Do they stack up to the imaging capabilities of smaller good bookshelves or not?

Note that for the mini-lores, I would need to do vineers and/or grills, so it'll be the same price essentially as the Aon 3s.
That's the pricepoint I'm comfortable with.

I've also auditioned the Sjofn "(The Clue)" speakers, and found them to be terrific as a pro tool, but perhaps actually too detailed and too finicky for a room not furnished around them. I'm still considering them, though. Other than the Clues, I've really never heard outstanding speakers in-depth. I have the Axioms noted above, plus Boston Acoustics A40s from 1986, still in service. That's pretty much my speaker-buying history. I can audition the Golden Ears, but it will be a day trip so won't be doing it lightly. Again, no way to hear the Tektons, but I feel pretty confident about them except for the question mark about possibly lesser imaging (versus the Aons lesser bass?). Thanks in advance for opinions and experiences. I guess this post appears to lean toward the Tektons, but in fact the GEs fit the room better, so I'm still very much open, including being open to not buying anything.
adlevision

Showing 6 responses by adlevision

TonyAngel,
Since I haven't owned floorstanders (at least, not since college, when I wasn't paying attention), your experiences between the two are informative. Sounds like there's no mystery to it.

Placement in this room is fixed: 1' or less from sidewalls, distance from back wall flexible, other short stuff separating the speakers, listening position at about equilateral-triangle-distance into the room, roughly halfway to the rear wall. Since the bookshelves I have are doing "ok" there, it will likely be fine for that type of speaker; however, I did move the subwoofer away from those corners to get cleaner bass, and I won't be able to do that once I rearrange the room, regardless of speaker type. So yeah, I'll start with my best guess and either change the speaker plan or furniture plan if it doesn't work.

Since I'm in a small town with no hi-fi stores, I've been in the pure homework stage so far, which of course is frustrating. But I've found a lot of speakers that people (forum-type-people) like: Ascend Sierra-1, DynAudio 2/7 or Excite X12, Paradigm studio 10/20, Monitor silver RX1, Sjofn (the Clue), Decware DM945, Dali, probably others that I've forgotten. Only reason I was drawn to the Mini-Lores was that they're small for floor-standers and what owners say sounds good to me (frankly, I just want to hear them, but not that $$ badly). A lot of the other contenders either can't pretend to get by without a sub or else would be a little low in the efficiency scale, so that I'd have trouble swapping them out into my larger room if I wanted to do that. The GEs seem to stand out on most counts, so it's definitely worth starting there, plus whatever else is in the store. If it doesn't work out, I'll go down the list and keep in mind some options mentioned in this thread as well.

On profit margins, a third way to make money: low profit on entry level and then jack it up quickly with each step up in the line. That doesn't negate the other economic logic you point out, but I've read on the speaker-DIY forum folks saying that it wouldn't be worth their labor time to buy those components and make the mini-Lores for $650. FWIW.
Thanks for all the great feedback. And the winner IS::: Both are great speakers! 'Course, I knew that, but I'm very glad to hear more first-hand accounts and it does seem like I would be satisfied bass-wise with either, since my goal is, to put it stupidly, for the bass note to be a solid "dommm" instead of a "hrmmmmm" (subwoofer off) or "blrrrf" (subwoofer on). My current sub is a Klipsch RW-8--inexpensive, but I really resisted investing $$ in a sub. I'll probably go with the Golden Ears because they will fit the room better than the M-Lores and I am sort of a detail freak. I might get the M-Lores later for the larger front room, next time I get the upgrade bug.

Regarding TonyAngel's comment, I agree, and wonder if people may be listening under the influence of conventional wisdom by thinking they need to raise the Mini-Lores. Seems like Eric knows what he is doing and designed them to be floor-standers. I've read that, especially with wide-band drivers, it's not about leveling the tweater, but the sonic center of the speaker, which on the M-Lores would be the 8" wideband driver. But of course it's about individual ears and rooms, and I ain't heard'em.

Good to know that bass freq response figures on floorstanders reflect roll-off the same way the specs on bookshelf speakers do.

I also like this comment and need to think more about it: "Even though a floor stander may be capable of delivering better bass, you may not be able to realize
the benefits of the added bass. This is because putting the speakers where the bass response is best is likely not going to be the position where the
speakers image the best, and placing the speakers where they image the best is unlikely to produce the best bass response."
...this seems to make sense and will have something to do with wall proximity and room size, but I'd have to experiment to figure it out fully. In my specific listening room, the speakers would need to be a maximum of 1 foot from side walls. I wonder if this would be even enough to avoid boominess/boxiness in a small floorstander (it does fine for my small bookshelf speakers, but an inch closer to the wall or too close to the back wall and they become terrible).
I'm still curious on a "philosophical" level, I guess, about an aspect of floorstanders versus bookshelves. At the same volume level and putting aside frequency response range, is there something qualitatively different about the two types of speakers? People talk about "feeling the music" more with floorstanders, and I wonder if that's just potential for greater volume, or if they move more air because of the larger surface area even if the relative loudness is equal to a smaller speaker. I'm having trouble with the physics. For example, the 8" driver on the M-Lores might have 200 square inches of surface vs. 150" on the 7" Aon 3 (and I know I'm fudging this: different type of driver and not accounting for how much of the diameter is "active"). Point being, the diff might be significant, even with 1" greater diameter. If I'm listening at say 80 dB on each set of speakers, will the floorstander deliver some kind of special quality because the driver is slightly larger? Ignoring individual design aspects, too, so this is a very simplistic theoretical "newbie" question. I did notice when auditioning the Sjofn Clues that they sounded "small" at low volume levels, perhaps brought out by the fact that they're designed to sit below ear level (vertical sound stage on them extends upwards with more power, becoming huge).

Other notes: On the Golden Ears, only criticism I've heard, apart from some people not being accustomed to its tweater style, is that the sweet spot may be rather horizontally and/or vertically small. I'll be able to test that in-store. On bookshelves being more well designed per dollar than floorstanders in general, I suspect that might not be a factor in this particular comparison: the GEs have lots more engineering hoo-ha, plus a dealer mark-up, whereas the Tektons are factory-direct. Profit margin is probably fairly llow on both as entry-level speakers, but I would wonder therefore about something "giving" in the GEs to keep the price down with that many unusual components in it.
For the benefit of people like me who Google into the middle of threads, I thought I'd record my impressions of my speaker comparisons. I'm a newbie compared to most members here, so this is mainly intended for the Googleverse, as well as it just acting as my own scratchpad. I'm not going to be concise at all, nor do I claim special expertise.

I don't have a lot of experience with audiophile-grade gear. Even so, in the end I've been puzzled by the level of superlatives about some of the speakers in the subject line and in general. "You could hear the slight distortion on Nora Jones' voice through these speakers"... This is a surprise? It's always been there on headphones or even on my $330 Axiom M2s... "soundstage extended well behind the speakers and filled the wall" ...Again, my little, much-maligned Axioms do that, too, and I've just always been able to place instruments in space and hear the pluck of strings, resonance of the guitar body, etc., on my systems. That was what I was calling "mid-fi," since I was using (good) budget speakers and a (good) budget sub and (good) budget class-D Icepower amp. So, after reading all that the Webby Web has to offer on the Aon 3s and Excite X-12s, I was deflated to find them better, yeah, but still in the same general league as what I've been hearing from the cheap seats. That's a note for newbies like me about realistic expectations and the law of diminishing returns, which is very steep on audio gear. Anyway, here are impressions., plus a review of the Sjofn "(The Clue)" speakers.

In the hi-fi store, source was a NAD SS amp, 50wpc. Rugs on the walls in a 13x13 or so room, no furniture other than the chair. Speakers maybe 7 feet apart. My own listening room, by contrast, is about as "live" as it can get, and I'm so accustomed to it that I felt somewhat closed-in with those covered walls. It's where all echoes go to die. So that affected my impressions negatively, and I found myself leaning forward to see if details were present, which I never could really tell in that room. I guess I live by reflected waves.

Tracks: In addition to the ubiquitous Nora Jones _Come Away With Me_ (poor Nora: she sooo wants to move on, much less be reduced to a demo disc...), I have found two other tracks to really give speakers a litinus test for bass. First is the MoFi Bob Marley Exodus, the track "Natural Mystic." It can make any woofer quiver in fear at high volume, and I did that with all speakers involved, but only the Aon 2 completely broke down at 80dB or so. This track is also great for assessing sound staging and high-hats. Second is "Caravan" as clobbered by Cuban pianist Chucho Valdez, where there is absolutely phrenetic hand drumming from left and right channels throughout the track, plus a drum kit a bit back in the center. Sociopathic piano runs cover the rest of the soundstage throughout the track, which never lets up. Chucho will tell you immediately about soundstage depth and transient response.

Golden Ear Aon 2. They couldn't even FIND the bass notes on "Natural Mystic." Muddy mess. They were also placed too close together for me (maybe 5 or 6 ft). I think anyone would need a crossover to a sub with these, but none of my amps have a crossover, so I'd not be able to lighten the load on the Aons. Out they go, although the same good qualities in the upper range should be the same as noted below for the 3s.

Aon 3. We moved these a bit further apart. Instant vast improvement over the 2s. I could relax a bit. Not just the bass, but everything was more defined. People say the smaller 2s image better, but that wasn't my experience at all--which is why I point out that they were moved further apart. I didn't bother to try the 2s again in the same position. The folded-ribbon tweater is definitely special. It was very airy. More than I think a traditional tweater could do, really. "Delicate" is indeed a good description. It's a different sound. But I also want to use the word "diffuse" here. And, since "thin-sounding" is an insult, I guess this is what people mean by a "lean" sound. The mid-range was present but didn't really shine for me. Sound stage had terrific depth/breadth but was a little further back than I am wanting. Now I also understand what people mean by "front row" versus "farther back in the audience" (see below on this). Moving slightly to the left/right did move the center of the image, too, but it wasn't unfocused. Bass is surprising from a speaker of this size, but it's not THAT remarkable and there's no "thud," perhaps contributing to my overall impression that the speakers sound a bit light (e.g., like bookshelves) or diffuse. I would really need to bring them home on demo to hear them in my very different room. I guess their sound is statuesque and graceful, whereas maybe what I was wanting was a good solid apple-bosomed Dutch girl. Oh, where might I find one of those?

DynAudio Excite X-12. "Yoooo-hoooo! Hier I am standing!" Instantly, my ears lit up. ...No, I mean literally : it's a condition I have, and I'm very sensitive about it, so shut up. The Excites have a very different sound than the Aons. Much warmer and fuller in the mid-range. No, the tweater doesn't have that air of the ribbon, but it's a darn fine tweater, and it's the sound we're all used to. Silk, so there's none of the ring of the aluminum tweater present in my Axioms. Otherwise, I'd say it has a strong family resemblance to the Axioms, only much better at the same things. Soundstage was more forward than the Aons, but still doesn't come in front of the speakers. I immediately liked them better than the Aons tonally, but flipped back to the Aon 3s to be certain. In fact, they're just too different to really have a favorite, though. The Aons are a less-familiar sound. I can't really describe the Excites except by repeating myself: warm, full-bodied, good solid bottom, very very sweet and smooth up top. "Yooo-hoooo, I am vaiting...."

What surprised me most about the Excites is that the bass is equivalent, to me, to the Aon 3s. The Aons were about 1' from the back wall and, in accordance with the manual, had lots of space to the side walls. I actually think these speakers might sound fuller maybe 18" from the walls, so that's a factor. The Excites continued to sound more full-bodied even at the low end. My only real conclusion, though, is that the 38Hz bragging rights of the Aon 3 vs. the 60Hz of the Excites may be more about room-coupling or liberal vs. conservative reporting (sorry to bring politics into it). Maybe the Aons technically go lower, while the Excites are fuller?

Although both the Aon 3 and Excite X-12 deliver enough bass for music, neither one "punched" the bass during my listen. It was just "there." I thought this was all I needed, but seems like it might not be. Pretty well-defined, but the Aons, especially, sounded like they were on the edge with Bob Marley. The way I'm phrasing it is probably a function of the way their bass has been oohed over so much, so they do remain impressive for bookshelves. Even though the thing that made me start shopping in the first place was mainly the desire to get rid of my sub, though, I don't think I would want to do so with either speaker, even if I might leave it off for 70% of my listening.

One more speaker to discuss.

Sjofn (The Clue) speakers, aka Sjofn (yes, this is my really silly name) speakers. Much less has been written about these, and most of that from audio shows; but, I was fortunate enough to have an owner, acting as the agent of Sjofn, bring his speakers over to my house to play for a couple of hours several weeks before I headed to hear the other speakers. These speakers are designed for placement within 2" (that's INCHES) from the front wall, and to sit on 20-24" stands. They're roughly in the same size class as the Aon 3s, but narrower, with a glossy finish and front bass port. Totally uninteresting appearance, but at least it doesn't slice off your light sabering hand and then stand over you saying "Who's your daddy?" (lookin' at you, Aon). The speakers also project a field in which the laws of physics no longer apply, by the way. The 5.5" wideband driver has a 4" active area surrounded by... a thingie. Ok, I don't understand speaker designs.
The Clues use room coupling to accomplish everything, so placement is all-important. We quickly realized, for example, that these speakers hate, hate, hate to be placed against windows: the top-end became painfully bright. Putting custom acoustic tiles behind them--by which, I mean a dog bed and a pillow--deadened the ring at the top end but left the speakers sounding dead, period. Rotating them so that there was basically too much space behind one speaker and a filing cabinet behind the other turned out to be the best we could do in my room as currently arranged. Here are the results.
The bomb has dropped! Suddenly, you are counting Nora's nosehairs (none, I hope). You can hear the bass player's repressed subconscious. Until this moment, you thought Brubeck's Time Out was a fabulous example of a DSD transfer. Now, you can only think of the limitations of microphone technology in 1959. These speakers are an x-ray machine for your amplifier and recordings. Hyperbole aside (if that's indeed what those remarks were), I discovered that my high-backed leather recliner (my listening position) actually distorted the sound because of slap reflecting off of it. THAT's how room-coupled and detailed these things are. Your room IS the speaker cabinet. Tune it, and it's incredible. These speakers really seemed like they were in a higher class than the others.
Oh, and bass... The reason I noted the two tracks at the beginning of this uber-post was because the Cluues didn't just reproduce the notes, they delivered a compression wave that arrived with a satisfying "thunk" on kick drum hitsand really filled the room with the bassline on "Natural Mystic," although I was able to make one of the woofers fart louder than mi dear ol' Da when pushed above 85dB or so. No way I would use a subwoofer with these.
The soundstage is further forward than I've ever heard--too far, really, but it's addictive. According to headphones and every other speaker, the drum kit on "Caravan" is supposed to be a bit behind the rest of the instruments, but here it's brought almost in line with the hand drums. There's still good depth, but it does seem a little unnatural. On the other hand, the track was absolutely gripping. Every drum hit was as much a shock as it would be in the front row live. In fact, for all jazz tracks, I found myself unable to hit "stop."
For other genres, the sound was very good and really tight, but not necessarily better than competitors, maybe only because there were fewer dynamics to start with. Complex classical didn't quite blow me away, but everything was very fine and I don't listen to orchestral music enough to be preoccupied with sonics there. Except for jazz sounding better than I'd ever heard it (bebop, swing, vocal, pianos), I was, probably unfairly, a little let-down by my first taste of a $1000 speaker, in much the same way that I would experience later in the hi-fi store as described above. I turned on my Axioms after the Clues left and continued to like the Axioms very much, except for the chestiness I've been living with that occasionally pops up near the lower mid-range (probably a big bump 70Hz-100Hz, not present on any of the other speakers). No way as detailed, but sort of "classy" in a low-light wood-paneled restaurant kind of way, whereas the Clues are a perfectly evenly-lit lab. With the Clues, the recording and mastering engineers are band leaders. It should go without saying that this is often not what one wants, especially with any new "loudness war" victims, raising the question: how much 70s classic rock or 60s jazz audiophile disc-listening do I really want to do?. So, I think their main place is as a really first-rate pro tool. By the end of that first experience auditioning speakers, I'd pretty much decided that the Clues were a wonderful fling, but not worth divorcing the Axioms, which are good at making me dinner every night. Still, I would be too tempted if my room arrangement didn't pose special challenges for this speaker, because they really stand out against the Aons or the Excites.

The outcome: I just purchased JRembert's Excite X-12s from the classifieds. Least expensive option if I'm going to do anything. They're not going to play really loud on my amp, but good enough to provide 10dB or so of headroom. I'll leave the sub in place, and just enjoy much better of the same sound I've been used to. I'll still demo the Aon 3s at home when I get the chance, because who just has one stereo in the house?
Mapman,
Yeah, I realized my mistake shortly after posting. Somehow "Danish girl" doesn't sound as funny to me, though, and I don't seem to be able to edit the post anyway...
Yeah, as noted above, my conclusion was really that I'd need to take them home to judge. Too bad I'm too far away to do that easily. But side by side, and presumably broken in in their show room, they were leaner in the mids by intent. I happened to be back in town again yesterday and went back for a second quick listen just to the Aon 3s, this time hearing more in the bass than I recalled (although there was a definite boxiness someplace down there, which I assume was maybe a room mode or else they were too close to the back wall). Plus, I was better able to notice how brilliantly they project acoustic instruments into space. I was using their demo disc this time. Great speakers, for sure. Yet, the overall sound, at least as I was able to hear it in there, turned out not to be for me. It was like the difference between the Aons having a "silver screen" effect versus a color-saturated HDTV, sort of (I visualize strongly when I listen, and that was very much the effect on me). The effect overall really made me uncomfortable, sad to say, and it felt just sort of like the transporter beam hadn't quite finished materializing the musicians on the platform. But again, I've literally listened to my BA A40s for 28 years running, now, plus one or two other speakers that have roughly similar sound in the mids (several designed by Henry Kloss, come to think of it). So I may be too entrenched to readily shake what's familiar to me. The Aons also do have an image that moves around very easily as I moved even a few inches. In a word, delicate.

You know, something just occurred to me. I wonder if the "lack of overshoot" and air of the ribbon tweater urged a particular sound in the mids to keep the whole thing sounding balanced. I'm out of my depth there, though.

And, even as I now await the arrival of the Excite X-12s, I'm actually back to thinking about mini-Lores for the non-subwoofered secondary system in the living room, which would indeed mean disconnecting the Boston Acoustics speakers for the first time since I was 16! ...Did I catch something from touching this board after you guys? Hope not: I'm poor.