Linear Tracker ...I was wondering

JagJag One small thing that I have picked up in all the very good advice given. There is a small difference in sound (pick up-ability) quality between a good pivoted arm and a linear tracker. But, there IS a difference.

JagJag - IMO - You can't make generalizations like that.
The reality is every linear tracker, unlike pivot arms, is very, very, different in design and execution. 

How big of a difference there is, is directly proportional to ....at the top of my head.

1) tonearm quality/design/capability,
2) setup-capability,
3) the turntable it is going on (this is fixed), (cartridges are exchangeable variables)
4) how resolving a person's room is. Do you listen in near field or is it a shared family space ? 

The above could make the difference you hear larger than you assume. This could be good and bad. It could make things worse by amplifying the weaknesses in you chain, setting you down extra rabbit holes. 

A pivot arm set up well, will out perform a linear tracker that has not been optimized.

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IMO - The best advice you have received on this thread is from Tom.

The only way to really understand the setup, quirks and sonic +\- is long term ownership. I am betting few have been there.

And I Loved the thread comments aimed at Debbie Downer - 8^0

Cheers Chris 

^^^^
The ET2 came out the same year as CD debuted - 1982. If it wasn’t such bad timing who knows. As it is there are over 2500 out there and originally cost $800. Good condition samples of the original 2.0 can be had for $800-1000. And resell again same price. So yes I agree on that.

however.

Tom - I feel it is the wrong candidate for a cold comparison because there is a learning curve to setup, and to learn what is possible. It is unique in design and requires time to learn how to set up for best performance. Even dealers/reviewers only ever figured out maybe 6 out of 10 on what was possible.

Cheers

Terry9
It skips, so you clean the beam. It still skips and you clean it again. Sometimes twice is enough. Sometimes you can’t see a thing and it still skips. Sometimes you clean 10 times. But when it doesn’t skip, it’s all worth it - to the right person."

This is all part of a design and execution that separates the men from the boys. ....
I would not put up with that design.Like I said earlier in this thread all Linear trackers are very unique in the way they are designed and built.

Terry - very surprised you are saying negative things about another tonearm. Fremer reviewed one of the 360 degree air bearing designs, declared it better than his pivot - he could hear it- but said it wasn’t worth the extra effort. At some point we all gravitate towards convenience.

And you keep referring to the Transfi as an air bearing, but it is a multi point bearing which also includes mechanical bearing. Better to call it a hybrid.  

The most linear tonearm in both planes is a full 360 air bearing.

Terry9
But, I note that the two plane air bushing is usually compromised by a relatively stiff air hose to pressurize that bearing, so I can’t agree that it is the most linear. That hose generates large forces relative to other forces on the stylus.

Terry
You are referring to the Kuzma - which I believe is the one Fremer was referring to in my previous post- LOL - don't quote me on that someone check back if they care....but I am pretty sure.

What do you think ?

Well I like pictures, so.
Clues to what I think lie in the attached picture. Kuzma Airline versus a Eminent Technology 2.5  

Note the huge differences in design especially inside the red circles.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3EtMfiUdgQpAGL1f8

So
One needs its air line and wiring for damping (Kuzma), as you reference above - the other does not (ET 2.5)

IMO 
The heart of 360 air bearing lies in its manifold design supporting the air bearing. It's the engine.

One in the picture has small, moving manifold - Kuzma
The ET 2.5 the opposite. A large stationary manifold.
This also results in customers being able to order the tonearm from the factory with a 3 - 19 psi range setting. Their choice. The Kuzma comes in one setting. 

The bearing differences between the two - night and day. The ET is the smoothest/slipperiest bearing I have encountered. This can be good if one is good with setup, or very bad IMO if one does not know how to set it up. The crazy bearing Bruce designed. will highlight set up errors. So a weakness of the arm is - the audiophile needs to learn the arm first. Read the manual.  How many do that? .  

So what do you think Terry on the two designs ? .

Cheers Chris  

mijostyn - do you have any idea how many times you have used the word "Horizontal Mass" on this thread alone.

"I won't even look at an air bearing arm because of the problem of too much horizontal mass."

Then, why are you posting here still ? 

FYI ..............et al 

Cartridges mounted on an ET 2 do not see the Horizontal Mass due to the patented I Beam/Counterweight design. A vertical leaf (flat) spring isolates the counterweights from the air bearing spindle. If interested to learn, it makes more sense, I think,  for you to do some research, download the manual, and come back with any questions if you have any..

I have used 50 Sonus Blue Gold 50x10-6cm/Dyne on the ET 2
with no problems whatsoever.  

@mijostyn
As entertaining as I find your posts, for me to continue to share direct experience information on this public chat forum thread, with someone replying to my posts based on theories, and no direct experience. (that’d be u) You need to show me a desire to learn and in this case, the ability to think outside the box.

I recommended that you go to the Eminent Technology website, download the ET2 owners manual and breeze through it. That would get you to at least 1st base, and I bet you would learn a lot too. Another option is to go to Florida and see the tonearm in action directly at Bruce’ factory. No, Bruce did not stop making it as you say. He also supplies parts as needed. A tonearm, whose basic design has not changed since the 80’s and is still SOTA. Whats the word again, for audio products that last that long ?

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For the Op and readers of this thread
Here is a short video on the Sonus Blue Gold cartridge I referred to earlier - whose compliance is 50 x 10-6cm/Dyne, and is set at 1.24 gms VTF. Many feel only the stiffest of carts can work on a air bearing linear tracker. They haven’t used an ET 2.

The ET 2.0 HP in room 2 - Aluminum armwand and single leaf spring counterweight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-AqjI2B1uY

https://photos.app.goo.gl/CQdPMuBW1JFN7Npk9

^^^

works without issues whatsoever, on eccentric records as well.

myself
I would not put my cartridge on a badly made record, for the same reason I would not take my 993 to the Rubicon. The Cartridge is the victim of bad analog setup.

If the music means that much to someone fix the record.

Harold, I was of course referring to full 360 captured air bearings in the previous post.  
Cheers

Millercarbon

I believe I have seen posts from you in the past, where you refer to M.Fremer more than a few times to reinforce your position.

M.Fremer
When you hear a true linear tracker for the first time, you'll know it—the absence of the etchy, pinched character present in all pivoted arms is among the most obvious differences. You're not really aware of it when listening to the best pivoted arms, but when it's gone, what a difference!

Does it get more audiophile than that? They are not for everyone and I think you just happen to be one of these "not for everyone" people. Why can't you accept this and move on. I take it from the wording in your post that you have not setup, and/or heard a true linear tracker in your own system.

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Talking Tech. There are folks in this Audio hobby, that enjoy finding out how the components in their chain work. Once the understanding is there, what's the crime in sharing that information with other like minded technical folks? Be it turntables, tonearms, speakers, amps/preamps, etc...

MillerCarbon
When it comes to tech, here's all you need to know: the one and only advantage is tracking error.
So just how big a problem is tracking error?

No, I think you are forgetting the bigger advantage, and the real reason IMO for the pinched sound that Fremer describes so eloquently.

1084 results on AudioGon alone

Woofer Pumping is a distance 2nd place, at 471 results.

mijostyn - By the way the largest benefit of a linear tracker is not reduced tracking error. It is no skating force in theory.

What do you think I emphasized in the previous post - LOL.
try clicking on the link.

You know I am on this forum through the winter usually, and then I disappear unless I get a notification. I don’t even recall you on this forum previous winter.