Jazz is not Blues and Blues is not Jazz.......
The Blues also has a universal nature, meaning it's almost everywhere. Here is Aster Aweke from Ethiopia; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULgwcno7gZs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w575kDhPBGw This relates to some of the things Frogman has mentioned. |
Frogman, you live in a musical universe of your own creation, and you never run out of "rose colored glasses". "Feeling blue” is expressed in songs whose verses lament injustice or express longing for a better life and lost loves, jobs, and money. That's one definition. "True Blues" has lyrics, while Blues in jazz is purely instrumental. Jazz was developed in our cities while Blues was developed in the cotton fields of the South, and the lyrics expressed deep dark misery and the desire to escape that misery. I know if I was born in an unpainted shotgun shack in the middle of nowhere, I would most certainly have the Blues. More often than not, the only things jazz and Blues musicians have in common is "ethnicity"; Miles Davis's father was a Dentist, and he went to Juilliard School of music in New York. What school of music did B. B. King go to? Jazz, Blues, and Gospel were lumped together for the same reason everything else was lumped together some time ago, "ethnicity". |
Let us compare the sound of the "Delta Blues" to the sound of Blues in Jazz; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyIquE0izAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0aIjyX7vwI Now lets listen to Blues in jazz; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMgwWAaxQQ4&list=RDDMgwWAaxQQ4&start_radio=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-488UORrfJ0&list=RDDMgwWAaxQQ4&index=3 All of that music is called "The Blues". Do you hear a major difference between what's called Blues in Jazz and what's called "Blues" since I can remember and even before then? Or is that the difference between "Delta Blues" and all other Blues? This gets back to the OP's original statement, Jazz is not Blues and Blues is not Jazz....... |
I notice nobody has mentioned "Ragtime", which is linked to Scott Joplin and Jelly Roll Morton who claims to have invented jazz. It seems that what's called modern jazz has come a long way. While modern jazz borrows from many genres of music, I don't believe they are connected in a linear sort of way, like if we didn't have this we couldn't have that. Where does "Ragtime" come in; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPmruHc4S9Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCxLAr_bwpA |
Good question Frogman, beside the fact that I'm in pursuit of that vinyl LP and I think it's a most significant jazz tune, I had no real point, but I realize that is the central cause of confusion. It seems that even "jazz musicians" are confused by what is, and what is not blues, and that includes Miles Davis. He said he liked Blues but gave no example. I bet nobody from "Clarksdale" would be confused; they can tell the difference between blues and jazz. I go along with the people from Clarksdale. Anytime jazz musicians have spoken of the Blues, I always went away with a question mark on my mind because they are never definitive; it's always jazz with a "blue feeling" but not real blues. |
Whatjd, don't let all this talk confuse you, it is as you say it is, not as they desire. Blues people and jazz people are as different as night and day, even when they look alike. First, lets not beat around the bush, blues is defined as "Delta Blues" or some derivative thereof, not as one of those "jazz tunes" with Blues in the title. The jazz center of the world is New York city, not Jackson or Clarksdale Mississippi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarksdale,_Mississippi Most Blues musicians have picked cotton, most jazz musicians have not; that is also a classic cultural difference. I could go on indefinitely, but I wont, I believe you get the picture. |
I don't suppose everyone is old enough to remember "radio"; meaning what we listened to for entertainment because few people had TV. I was a child myself, so that was a long time ago. Blues was "Delta Blues" and jazz was Charlie Parker, Dizzy, Sonny Stitt, and the most prominent jazz musicians. They came on "one" radio station only, along with Gospel on Sunday. That's how they came to be lumped together. That was the answer to the question almost 70 years ago. Does an answer to a question that's 70 years old count? |
Have you ever heard John Lee Hooker play jazz? Have you ever heard Howlin Wolf play jazz? Have you ever heard Lightnin Hopkins play jazz? Have you ever heard Elmore James play jazz? Maybe there's more to it than; but the bedrock blues pattern is One Four Five One. In Jazz, it's Two Five One. If you say it in your Do-Re-Mi's, the Blues chord progression is basically Do-Fa-So-Do. In jazz it's Re-So-Do. I think it's more to it than that. |
A custom (also called a tradition) is a common way of doing things. It is something that many people do, and have done for a long time. Usually, the people come from the same country, culture, or religion. ... Many customs are things that people do that are handed down from the past. 50 years ago certain radio stations only played certain kinds of music and they were lumped together, not by genre, but by ....... You fill in the missing blank. Now tell me, what do jazz, blues and Gospel have in common? Once a tradition is started, it just carries on beyond the time that anybody knows why? |
The premise of this thread is quite relevant, and one that I have often wondered about myself. We have clearly illustrated that even the people who create the two genres are so very different; then why shouldn't the music be different. Beyond the commonality of ethnicity, I can't see any similarities. Even the same word means two different things; when a jazz musician refers to "The Blues", does his reference sound like Howling Wolf? |
Fundamentally, when we say "Blues" we're talking about "Mississippi", and the fact that it spread out through the South from there. The only thing that connects jazz and Blues is "ethnicity". Culturally the musicians are miles apart; Miles Davis never picked cotton, while most "Blues musicians" have mentioned it in their songs. Albert keeps it real; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyBZnLuNJ7k&list=RDpyBZnLuNJ7k&start_radio=1 Unfortunately, blues musicians are closer to their original heritage; "descendants of slaves" who were forbidden to learn how to read or write. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Py37G9qsfY It is what it is. |
First and foremost, there is only one Blues, and that is the "Delta Blues"; all other blues are fakes derived from imitating the "Delta Blues". When jazz musicians refer to the "Blues", they are referring to the emotion of "Blue" as expressed in their music. Have you ever heard a jazz musician sound like "Howling Wolf"? The most distinctive aspect of the two Genres (jazz and Blues) is where the artists hone their crafts; the majority of Blues players worked in the deep south originally, while jazz musicians worked the big cities; Chicago, Detroit, LA, and New York. Have you ever heard of a jazz musician playing a "Juke Joint"? I could go on and on in regard to the differences between not only the differences in musicians, but the differences in music that you can plainly hear, but I wont. |
When it comes to music "Google" is out to lunch; http://www.screamingbluedogs.com/index.php/the-different-types-of-blues-music/ |
Whatjd, you have to be a little more specific, we seem to have too many different kind of "Blues's"; Delta Blues, country Blues, chicken little blues, Gumbo Blues, and I don't know what else; you see my point. I'm 100% on your side because I have never liked "Delta Blues" and in no way should it be included with jazz. However, here is where confusion arises; one of my favorite tunes is "Sandra's Blues"; I knew Sandra, and I remember when she got the Blues, it was because of that no count man she was foolin around with; but Sandra didn't like Blues she was strictly into jazz, the same as the artists who are playing this tune. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhgUUe5czxc Maybe you could clarify that bit of confusion. |
