1. Teres has a 4-6 month backlog with no letdown in sight.
2. AFAIK, CB has expressed no interest in altering his vision for Teres. He prefers an activity level he can manage as an enthusiast. Running Teres is not his job, it's his hobby.
Unless one or both of those conditions changes, it's difficult to think of any reason for CB to court the mainstream mags. Teres doesn't need more exposure to meet or exceed its stated mission: to provide high end TT's at price/performance points that beat the mainstream competition. Not being a publically held corporation, unfettered growth need not be part of that mission. |
Hi NGeorge,
I'll suspend the Teres love fest (temporarily of course!) and address a couple of your followup questions/points:
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"What I'm saying is that it would be great for the everyday guy (who's part audiophile, part insecure audio geek and part know-it-all) to read about his gear, in this instance, a turntable, on the pages of Stereophile."
I've only been involved in the higher end of audio for a couple of years, and in high end analog for 13 months, but I can say with a complete lack of insecurity (and a wealth of know-it-all) that Art Dudley's credibility as a vinyl components reviewer leaves much room for improvement.
In May he reviewed the ZYX R1000 Airy cartridge, which I own. He did a commendable job but he missed some things due to the limitations of his equipment. He made other errors due to his oft-stated preference for components with something called "PRaT", an error he apparently repeated in his review of the Quattro.
His equipment-based errors in the Airy review were caused primarily by the tonearms he used: Ittok, Ekos and whatever flavor of Rega is on his P3. None of these arms has a particularly credible height adjustment. The Airy has a microridge stylus that is sublimely sensitive to VTA. On my rig, arm height changes as small as .007mm make the difference between the Airy sounding "nice" and sounding astoundingly solid and dynamic, precisely the attributes AD said he missed in the Airy. The arms Mr. Dudley used are simply incapable of being adjusted to get the most from this cartridge.
FWIW, I'll add that reviewing a reference caliber cartridge on a Rega P3, as Mr. Dudley partly did, is rather like reviewing Z-rated racing tires on a Jeep Cherokee. There's nothing wrong with my Cherokee, but it's no Porsche 911.
AD's oft-admitted preference for components with "PRaT" virtually disqualifies him for reviewing reference quality components IMO. Pace, rhythm and timing are - or ought to be - provided by the musicians, not the reproduction equipment. If AD likes colorations that's his privilege, but he shouldn't go parading them in public while masquerading as a high end guru. That deceives the people he's supposedly serving. (I'd retract the above if by "PRaT" he simply meant that the Quattro failed to maintain rock steady speed during dynamic passages, due to stylus drag for instance. I doubt that's the case however, particularly since there's no reason to believe his LP12 would do any better and every reason to believe it would do worse.)
There is much wheat among the chaff in 'Stereophile' reviews. AD's Airy review contained many commendable insights along with the errors I mentioned. Unfortunately, the people best able to sort the one from the other are the least likely to need the review. :-(
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"...both the Supreme and Teres 340 share the same philosophy: no suspension, mass based. The Supreme's platter weighs 75lbs (!) against the 37 lbs for the 340.
Is this the way to go? As heavy as it should be to be a good turntable?"
All other things being equal I suppose that might be so, but of course they never are. CB already pointed out the many significant differences between a Galibier and a Teres. It's more than just mass: 75 pounds of aluminum/teflon/lead are not necessarily 2.027x better than 37 pounds of cocobolo/jatoba/lead. Different materials handle resonances differently. In addition, no turntable I've heard of has a motor controller that equals the Teres. Every other controller regulates the speed of the motor. Only the Teres self-regulates the speed of the platter, which is what really matters of course.
Oops, I'm back to the love fest. Oh well! |
Thom,
That would be one wild shootout. Say, how about a SW Audio Fest? Maybe in Tombstone? I hear they have a corral that's supposed to be okay, even if things get as messy as NGeorge hopes!
You make an excellent point about the futility of trying to judge any material in a vacuum. Synergy is critical and difficult to predict. A perfect example is in the two best tonearms I've heard. The Schroeder Reference and TriPlanar VII sound more alike - which is to say, invisible - than the other good arms I've heard. But they could hardly be more different in materials and engineering choices. IME anyone who summarily ruled out one or the other based just on materials would be doing themselves a disservice.
I'll have to check out AD's Graham Robin review, just to get an idea where he was coming from. BTW, any sign of your TriPlanar yet? |
David,
I hope you're right (about PRaT in the context of a TT review). But I see the term bandied about so often by fans of colored TT's, arms and cartridges that it always makes me wary. Clearly one man's PRaT is another man's PRiSoN! |
"...maintaining as perfect-as-possible speed stability in the face of stylus drag (the Great Enemy) is the way to preserve the PRaT of the original performance."
My point exactly Jean, and this is why I had a problem with the PRaT comment NGeorge quoted from Art Dudley's review. How could an LP12 resist stylus drag better than a Quattro Supreme? That just seems so unlikely...
BTW, what instruments/voices do you guys find to be most vulnerable to stylus drag? For me it's massed violins, but I'm curious what other musical sounds you've noticed that need "perfect" speed stability to sound acceptably realistic. |
Then you have to buy one of each. |
Hi Jean,
Thanks for the thoughts and examples. Like you, I would find any pitch wavering in piano decays, bell decays, etc. to be quite disturbing. OTOH, I would not necessarily assume that pitch-perfect decays indicate full resistance to stylus drag in all circumstances. Decays are, pretty much by definition, non-dynamic. Stylus drag during a decay is decreasing. A momentary speed loss caused by the leading transient *could* be recovered on some rigs by the time the decay begins. My old silk thread could cope with piano decays fairly well. It's susceptibility to stylus drag was most noticeable at the biggest transients.
Good insights on the Roksan, Linn and thread drives. Thank you. The silk thread previously used on the Teres was capable of some tiny amount of stretch over time (far less than rubber though) but I believe its major problem was inadequate friction aganst platter and motor pulley at moments of maximum drag, as you stated. Mylar is less slippery, and 1/2" wide tape provides many times more surface area than thread. I know from my work in graphic arts reproduction that mylar is dimensionally at normal room temperatures. No stretch. Provided that motor and plinth do not move relative to each other, it seems like this motor-platter linkage "should" be as stable as my ears - and the more sensitive ears of my partner - indicate.
Sorry to hear about your detail-freaked friend. That's a dangerous and expensive trap to fall into, since there's potentially no end to it. FWIW and as I'm sure you know, a front-row or even podium level of detail is possible without sacrificing musicality, or even PRaT. But chasing detail for detail's sake seems a sterile endeavour.
We have reached a state of intense musical satisfaction with our rig. You and Psychicanimal can be assured that our toes tap themselves, our heads involuntarily bob, on every record. When you find yourself caught up in the *rhythms* of 'a capella' medieval chants or a solo lute, you've attained real PRaT. Most rigs can deliver PRaT with Sousa or Strauss (any Strauss, take your pick!).
Thanks to the help of my good friend 'Cello' we've been allowed to hear enough different things to develop a good idea of what directions we needed to go. Our recent arm and cartridge upgrades provided everything we were looking for and more. Judging by the astonishing length of your Lenco/Home Depot thread, it seems others are finding much the same on that path. Bon chance with its continued progress and thank you for helping to lead the revival!
Doug |
Jimbo3, Here's a source for mylar tape: http://www.mccormicksnet.com/mccormicks/tapes.htmScroll down to the bottom of the page and look for "Mylar Streamers". The 1/2" wide size used by Teres/Redpoint/Galibier owners costs <$5 for a 100' roll and it comes in colors! Make sure your motor pulley is wide enough before you choose a size. For cutting the ends and getting them square I bought a VCR tape splicer. It's never been out of the box. I found I can do an excellent job with a new #11 Xacto blade, a straightedge and a clean, flat working surface. It helps to be nearsighted, and no caffeine! Some people use VCR splicing tabs but I've had better results with 1 mil x 2" clear 3M shipping tape. My splicing tabs always seemed to separate after awhile. My shipping taped belt is as good as the day I made it, seven or eight months ago. If 1/2" black mylar will suit, I'll gladly make a belt up and ship it to you. Let me know the length you want if you're interested. Like Cello, my 100' roll should be enough for several lifetimes. |
4yanx,
Don't forget to include a CDP behind that double blind, and maybe a live band too! ;-) |
Psychicanimal,
I'm right with you on complex, full orchestral tuttis for exposing stylus drag. Massed violin tones will expose speed irregularities caused by big percussion hits, brass blasts, etc.
No offense taken that you can't visualize a table like mine or Thom's being thoroughly resistant to stylus drag. No reasonable man would take offense at another man's lack of imagination! <;-) |
Thom,
We're definitely on the same page about PRaT, sorta what I tried to say in my post criticizing Art Dudley's infatuation. While PRaT can certainly be masked by a stereo, as 4yanx pointed out, most PRaT-loving reviews I've seen are in fact praising inaccurate tonal balance or inaccurate reproduction of leading or trailing edges of transients. A particular inaccuracy may of course sound "better" on some recordings, but it will be insufferable on most others.
The "perfect" stereo would *exactly* reproduce the tonal balance and transient behavior of the recording, and its noise floor too. A component that fails in one or more of these areas will probably mask some of the musicians' PRaT, but focusing on PRaT is indeed focusing on the result, not the cause.
Enjoy the TriPlanar. Here's a tidbit that's not in the manual: the cueing height adjustment also controls the point across the record where antiskate kicks in. Weird, but easy to understand if you look at it long enough. :-)
Sorry to NGeorge for the endless OT, but it seems like a nice conversation! |
7.8Hz? Yikes. No wonder my pet elephant is always nervous. They can hear that low can't they?
Einstein explained our futility 100 years ago. What you see/hear depends on where you stand, and even on whether or not you're looking/listening! |
I'm with Jean and Twl on the speed stability issue, and also in the belief that there's more than one way to achieve it. I haven't built a Lenco but I certainly trust comparisons like 4yanx's, Albert's and many others. Twl's explanation of the weaknesses of many belt-driven designs (unstable motors, stretchy or slipping belts ) is exactly consistent with our experience. Our Teres was built when they were still experimenting with different drive belts. It arrived with both a silk thread and a 1/2" VCR tape. We were asked to try both and report results. We did, and the differences were clearly audible. It was so bad with the silk thread that Paul actually wondered if we'd made a serious mistake. "This is the table that's supposedly killing $8K+ tables? How awful must they be?!" The time smearing of notes was painful, and we didn't need any audiophile mag to tell us something was wrong. Then we switched to the tape drive. I reported its superiority here: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1062459400&openmine&zzDougdeacon&4&5#DougdeaconAs mentioned by Chris Brady later down that thread, the best results have been achieved with 1/2" mylar tape. That's what all up-to-date Teres owners use AFAIK. It makes a bit of HF noise going around the motor spindle, but that's inaudible from more than a few feet away. The speed stability (PRaT if you like) it provides is more than worth it. Once you've got speed (and also resonances) under control, the investment in more costly arms and cartridges becomes fully audible and worthwhile. Until then they'd be partly a waste of money. In this sense Twl's philosophy of table before arm before cartridge is proven exactly correct. Just last week I tried the aramid fiber (kevlar?) belt supplied with another high end table on my Teres. Lovely quietness going 'round the spindle, but its slight stretchiness sucked the life and jump from the music. The leading edge of every note was rounded off and dull. Paul made a nasty face and I quickly took it off. Idler wheel, direct drive, belt drive. Each can apparently provide the necessary speed stability. It's all in the engineering. |
