An ICE amp has to mount a great speaker to convey reality.
I have been working to harness the ICE amp wild pony for years. Now we are riding over hill and dale. The question is not only which ICE amp to buy, it is what you have to do to make them sound the way you want to too.
I love full orchestra. An ICE amp will morph into any different markings depending what you coral it with. If you desire just the clear sounds of players, then you need to whittle down the electronics and wires, so they don't spook the amp. |
Ait - Yippy yi aye!
"""""In my opinion, they are much more the "straight wire with gain" amplifier than any sort of sound-shaper."""""
You couldn't be more right. Yours post is a great example why there are so many opinions of class D amps.
I too use tubes. They are in my non oversampling DAC. Never would I care to run my ICE amps direct. I prefer the romance of tubes, and the frankness of NOS. |
Curriem11, I beg to differ. My speakers are the infamous 1 ohm Scintilla. It matters not how loud I listen to them. Right now they are working in the 70 to 80 decibel range. No one else is in the house.
Ait has demonstrated just how temperamental class D amps are. There are all sorts of components manufactured with the seeming idea of screwing up class D. Now, I don't believe that; it's just that it works out.
My amps NEED SCs devoid of dielectric. Conversely, they NEED iron clad PCs. Those are only 2 rules of many. |
Curriemt11, you have a wonderful system. I love the artful symmetry. My
apology. The only reason I jumped in with my speakers is because you thought
the low impedance of your Soundlabs may be a problem. My answer is no, the
load is not the problem.
I can say, for a fact, you SCs will be a poor match in a class D system. Any SC
with anything but a whisper of dielectric will announce itself loudly as fizz over
your music. The interconnects and vinyl would be stellar partners.
I would just love to bring over my gear to test on your Soundlabs. I in no way am
sure at all it will be a good match. Class D will spurn the wrong suitor. I make
no bones about that. |
Hey guidocorona My H2O/Fire/AN system has all the qualities you enumerated. A comparison would be most interesting. It is in the application that the greatest victories can be garnished from great class D amps. Turning the monos around backwards and fixing them to the speaker terminals with thin ribbon SCs made a huge difference in extension, and depth. |
Mapman, I see you followed the testament of an Agoner from down under. Bezimienny succinctly described what I am hearing here. I love to crank up the sound when playing great recordings of solo piano. Tubes play a big part in my sound. There are four in my AN DAC. |
I agree with Eldartford on how dynamic swings depend on how much juice your power gear have on standby. I have a Dvorak 9th CDR that I got from someone. It is the king of all my CDs on dynamic swings. I turn it to 11 o'clock, and sit back for a hair blow-back performance. The first instruments are played gently. Then out cries the full force of the symphony, hard struck Tympani drums leading off.
Of course, bass power is driver dependent, and though my speakers can reach way down, there is no replacing what a well integrated sub-woofers will do. |
Guidocorona, I have 3 different Dvorak 9th. The CDR someone sent me is the best by far. That was a long time ago. I wouldn't be the least surprise it is the Chesky version.
My hair on the back of my neck stands up when a effervescent violin is played sounding like a cowering shiver, bookended between two emphatic passages. |
My house has a suspended wooden floor. The foundation is made of 100 year old bricks. The house does tremble when one of those boom boom boy toys drive by. There are little cones of brick dust in the basement. |
Where were everyone 5 years ago. I still have tomato stains staining my pride.
Lacee has it right. It has been my experience one has to have a lot of patience to
get class D going superbly. I had faith I could. I never dreamed of just how good
it gets, though. Rtn1 is right to correct our use of peak in describing orchestral
music. |
Ahhhh bliss then ....... :) |
From Dob, contributed to Simon Thatcher: "We believe that when our subconscious mind detects a even small unnatural trace of distortion in reproduced acoustic music (which is not recognized yet as a very low level irritant by the analytical part of our brain) it activates a subtle alarm."
I play my music after it's kind. I like playing piano at realistic levels, keeping in mind the fact one has to pay mind to where the microphone is during the recording.
With a real clean CD, I use higher levels again. I have some really lovely sounding CDs. Orchestral recordings require a substantially high volume setting to get the most satisfaction out of the rolling peaks. On this system there is not a hint of any distortion at any level.
|
Rtn1, In answer to your statement as how one gets to great music with class D, I will give a brief summary.
First of all, your notion a tubed preamp is necessary is far off the mark. I have a class A preamp, and would never consider trading it for any tubed affair.
I started some 5 years ago with my attempt to make good music out of class D. I use to use all Pass Labs gear. Back then the Pass preamp hung on until my amp builder made a preamp that produces miracles. It works perfectly with the low impedance of ICE modules.
Through all latter changes, the amps (mono H2O) and preamp (H2O Fire) have remained. With every improvement I made in my system, my power end obliged passing on the improvement.
There are tubes in my system, four to be exact. They are in my Audio Note DAC. This particular DAC has been transformed with a minor adjustment replacing four diodes. I have found, on my system, all the great number of oversampling CD players, including SACD, sound atrocious.
Last of all, I found out how utterly important the cables are. This system is so transparent that every misstep will announce itself loudly. All insulated cables produce a hiss. Paul Speltz, on his site, describes the phenomena succinctly. My system proves Paul is correct. I found no speaker cable served my needs. So, I created one.
To summarize, the only component that has a signature is the AN DAC, and what a marvelous sound that is. My system will match your, "depth, warmth, flow, naturalness, transparency, and beauty of live acoustic music," plus dig deep into hither to unknown recesses of every CD. All the 90 db dynamic range is utilized. My 1 ohm speakers sound the same at any loudness level. No other type amp can do that through 1 ohm speakers. |
Weseixas,
Correct, and the Fire is an essential partner.
When I play Bolero, I set my volume at 12 o'clock. When the finale raises up
at huge volume, all instruments remain distinct. In the past, with 4 ohm
speakers, and for a while, my 1 ohm speaker, I used Pass gear. The finale
then sounded like a singular mythical wild beast of some sort. For all ears,
that worked. In fact, having all the instrumentation identifiable does dispel
any notion of magic. Of course a live performance would do the same thing.
For another example, the same demystifying happened with Lorena
McKennitt's, "The Highwayman." With the Pass gear the
background was unidentifiable eeriness, and real spooky. Now that all the
musical instrumentation is identifiable, the music is much more engaging,
but the ghosty background fog was dispelled.
By the way, the X-600 ran out of gas at high levels and tripped off. I have had
the pleasure to listen to all the new Pass gear, and they do offer a better
performance than the older models.
There is one more very important point. I sold my grazzled speakers. They
didn't work with my gear. I kept my Apogee ribboned speakers. |
Hi Dob, You are absolutely right. There is a difference between the on board ICE module power supply and a good add on. H Ho will make either type, digital power supply, or his own analog power supply as ordered. The one I am using has four huge caps that store a lot of ready power. The big caps also serve as a deep lake to quell any ripple. There is also a bank of fast firing caps for quick transients, and smacking power for rim hits and other sharp noises.
It is important to note, all the music I hear is the result of my DAC. The preamp and amp only pass it on to the speakers in a way to optimize the speaker's capability. |
Mapman, I can't say how happy I am to hear your testament. Class D has got such an undeserved bad rap over the last 7 years.
It has been my experience that a great class D amp requires great everything else. By great, I don't mean expensive necessarily. The Fire preamp was made to work with the demands of a class D amp, but it also is superb with any other fine amp. Almost all tube amps match well to class D.
I still use Speltz's Anti - Cables for the ICs. I have found very thin ribbon SCs to be, by far, the best SCs. |
Kijanki, please, you should not make those statements unless you have witnessed the actual application of the 500A module loaded working on 1 ohm. Here is another eye wakener, the H2O can not only do 1 ohm, it is stable on a third of an ohm as well. That has been proven multiple times. H Ho has the 1000ASP module, and since, like me, he has the 1 ohm Scintilla, he knows which is better. |
Weseixas, Here I though The Scintilla was the only one ohm speaker. I am curious what ribbon speaker you have. I talked to Henry about this among some other things. If you want to know what a certain amp can do, call the builder.
There is a catch. The 250 watt H20, though 93% efficient, still needs the Fire preamp. It sends a boost to the H2O. With the two, I can drive my Scintillas to an in the room grand piano. As a warning, though, cables and source can react terrible with the H2O duo. With the right source and cables...... sky's the limit.
I am in N. California if anyone wants to hear what I have. |
I would urge all class D owners to find an AN DAC to try. My class D set up spits out all oversampling or up-sampling players. I haven't had one here that doesn't fall far short of a 1-sampling player or DAC. |
One last caveat...... I don't know about any other NOS DACs, but Audio Note DACs have the worst diodes, and that goes for all their models. Both my aged PSA Lambda transport and my Audio Note DAC got new high efficiency fast recovery diodes. The model of diode is BYW80200 STMicroelectronics.
This upgrade must not be dismissed out of hand. That one change opens the gates for for all the information, far more than otherwise. |
Rx8man, yessir.... NO LOOKING BACK |
Weseixas
I can't defend the Bel Canto, since I haven't heard one. However, as a long time owner of an ICE amp, I have come to dome definite conclusions. It took years of experimentation.
On my system the Sony would sound terrible. Then again, way before I went class D, and was using Pass gear, NOS players were winners hands down. So, I was an early convert. Now, with the gear I have, the difference only intensifies, remarkably.
The difference lies in several areas. An excellent Sony SACD sound exhibited a severely truncated decay. The stage was both shallow and squished. The tone was cold and tinny. In fact you describe it rather well.
My sound is fully fleshed out. The stage is bigger than my 5 foot speakers. I could go on, but it is just as well to say my sound follows nature. It is a natural sound, in all venues, hard rock, to lizard lounge singers.
These are .8 ohm speakers, with sensitivity at 76 db. Despite that, when I put on a well recorded pianist, I put his grand piano right in the room, turning the volume to 2 o'clock. It is fun to fake out passer-bys. |
Guidocorona is correct. No ICE amp will sound very good in the first 100 hours, with optimum playing delayed for 100s of hours.
Besides the need for a NOS DAC, a good ICE amp will never sound clear unless the whispiest insulated SC is used.
Class D is not deficient. Our understanding of class D is deficient. |
Audiofefeil, Upsampling, perhaps. Oversampling NO. I have proved that here many times to various people to their satisfaction. Class D is nothing like any tube or solid state amp;
Every cable that has gone through here have announced themselves according to their insulation regardless of price. They produce a haze of white noise on a fine Class D system.
These are not a matter of choice for class D owners. They are a matter of realistic sound versus poor hifi, as the Weseixas test with Sony exemplified.
I stand by my words, and your countering does no good to those who choose class D amps.
You are a dealer, your rant exposing motive. |
If I understand correctly, most ICE modules are stand alone amps that produce no noticeable heat, and are very good performers, are used for mass audio product lines.
B&O ICE are constantly improving their on board switching power supply. The later modules like the ones Bel Canto use are better than before.
The only module they make that allows an add on power supply remains the one in the H2O amps I am using, being the 500A. This is a 250 watt amp. The analog power supply imbues the resultant sound with a relaxed authority that allows the use of solid state preamps, There is no need for tube massaging. |
Weseixas What Rich are we talking about? I will be very happy to entertain any visitor who loves music. Have him shoot me an email.
I removed my system from Audiogon. After my spinal operation this month, and trusting I will be in good health afterwards, I am going to restart my cottage industry making speaker cables. Doing that, I figure I will have to register as such. My system dialogue was riddled with brand name disappointments.
Gallant Diva's set up is very different than mine. I have good word that his sound is phenomenal. He put a lot of tube amp horsepower into driving hybrid Full Range Apogees. |
Weseixas,
All joking aside, if the Bel Canto can handle 1 ohm, then by all means, drop by with it someday. As an aside, you can make it a marvelous vacation. Visit the lovely abundance of wineries, check out the still largely wild north coast, visit John Kenneth Galbraith's favorite city, San Francisco. |
Ah, Weseixas, the mystery continues, just who you are. I would be extremely excited to host a shoot out of the Threshold against the H2O. While we are at it, we can test any number of SCs for laughs. Nothing would please me more.
We will have to make a date - We will plan on a day, after my C 4-5 spinal path is cleared this month. Shoot me an email |
Thank you for your concern, Weseixas. I think we should carry on our visit plans via email. That way we can exchange phone no. and not be a bore to the rest. |
