How do you determine how much to spend on speakers

Kraz:
Well it only goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat. This line makes the Tower of Babel look moderately coherant. I'd throw my 2cents worth in but I am not sure I have that much to say. I'll give you 1cents worth.

What are your plans for the future? You say your budget at 5K is "modest" and that you are just "starting out". To me that suggests you may upgrade in the future. If you want to upgrade I suggest that you leave a place in your system to do so. Nothing worse than trying to upgrade a perfectly balanced system. You spend a lot of $$$ that way. If you're not certain listen to as many 5K systems as you can before you buy and ask yourself if you can live happily ever after with it.

I will suggest a system that is very nice and also upgradable. I fall on the buy the best speakers you can get side of the argument. I don't care if you buy them first or last (Natalie's argument), just buy them. The garbage in garbage out argument is true, but why do you ever need to put garbage in? And, speakers color sound more than any other component in my experience. (If you think cables make a difference just play with the caps to your tweeters, but that is another story.) I think the price for nice stuff on the source side is reasonable. In another recent post audiogonhead Chelillingworth raved about how well a NAD 370 (Integrated Amp @$550 that has won all sorts of acclaim across the big water) did when paired with his Physic Virgo 3's ($5,500). He was used to listening to them with Rogue Audio prior to the switch so he has ears. I have heard an Odyssey Stratos (used $900-1000) do the same thing.

A system a friend recently bought went something like this: North Creek Rhythm Revelator Signature Speakers ($2,800). You buy it as a kit but it is not rocket science and is a great education about what a speaker is about. (Worth it just for the experience.) The crossover is completely built you just pop it in. It includes 8 guage coils, Crescendo Caps and top of the line Scan Speak drivers hand matched to within .5db.(Have any idea what you need to spend on retail speakers to see that?). Power it with a NAD 370 integrated Amp (120W) ($600). Buy the best used cd you can find ($1000). Spend the rest on accessories.

This will sound fantastic and, at the same time you can rotate the NAD out when the time comes for next to no loss. If you put a nice tube source in there in a year or two, look out.

I'm absolutely certain that there is nobody here who will agree with the above but that is what makes this so interesting, and there are lots of great 5k systems out there.

Sincerely, I remain

Sean and Whatjd: I agree completely with your comments. It is perfect general advice. But a question remains. What exactly is a "balanced" and "compatable" system? I mean what exactly do you buy? How do you divide the pie. Not trying to push a point, just very interested in your opinion.

By the way Whatjd, Your advise is very Greek - moderation and balance in all things. I love the ancient greeks and I think part of the reason they continually sought moderation is that they lived in such excess. Sounds like the way most of us approach audio.

Sincerely, I remain

Geez Krazeeyk, nice choices right out of the gate. Maybe you should give us advise.

Heard the speakers and like them especially the base and mids. Can't say much about the match. I have experience w/ Rotel and its good bang for buck. sdcampbell seems to be the local Bryston authority and you might ask him or e-mail him.

Those Italian speakers have such la classe.

I remain,

-IMHO-
I'll add a few more things to be filled in by some of the other regular folks here who have more cards in their deck than I do.( mylife: Sometimes I feel like I'm playing solitare with a deck with all the aces missing)

Avoid Retail Prices: A couple have said you need to buy retail if you listen/audition in a retail store. I would buy used equipment I haven't heard based on sound advise before I paid full retail price for anything (I'm not only clueless but cheap too!). I admire the ethics here but you will take a huge hit if you pay retail prices. I don't think it's possible to put together a really nice music system for 5k paying retail. In fact, I just saw a system advertised for 11.9k retail in the local paper that is a complete dog - multi channel dog. .

Home Theater or Music: Not mentioned above at all. You note that you are into "HI-FI". Music or home theater? Just my opinion but the industry is really pushing HT. At your price point (I think at almost any price point) Stereo two channel is the way to go. If you spread your $$ out to six speakers and then ask the amp to handle all of that you are giving up A LOT of quality when it comes to listening to music. Buy a two channel system.

Law of diminishing returns (general rules are made to be broken): Not going to break down component by component but I think (without going into vinyl) you are approaching the point where return on the dollar starts to diminish very quickly. You get a really nice bang for the buck system in the 5-7k range if you buy smart. Also, with regard to components remember: general rules are made to be broken. If someone says that generally returns start to fall off at 1500 for solid state amps and you have a great deal infront of you for 700, well take it. Sometimes the industry puts out a winner (the little NAD 370 -there are others too!) at a lower price. Take advantage of it. General rules about what you have to pay for good stuff are broken everyday by folks here at audiogon and elsewhere.


The old " It's Your ears argument": Out of respect (lots of kind folks here) lots of folks will tell you to listen, listen, listen. The pitfall is that if you are new to high end, your ears might not be all that good at first and may change in time. I know mine have improved (or at least changed) with listening. I really remember (some years ago) running from venue to venue trying to distinguish the speaker I heard at store X, run with ABC equipment in a 14x 31 room, to what I heard at Store C, run on EFG equipment, in a 14 x 14 room. Not really productive. That's why some have said bring the speakers home. This is also hard to do logistically and it is very hard to make close calls when you listen to speakers hours and days and usually weeks apart. For most of us it involves some listening, an educated guess, and then a leap of faith.

Speakers: Buy the best you can get!!! Speakers have a huge job to do: Electrical energy is transformed to magnetic energy which is transformed to mechanical energy which is transformed to acoustic energy. There isn't this much going on anywhere else in the system. Some folks have suggested spending as little as $1,500 on speakers and IMHO that is sonic suicide. Unles you get some really exceptional deal/value out of proportion to what you spend.

I like Northcreek. Go to Northcreek.com and look at Rhythm kits just for the fun of it. Reading the site will give you a little education about issues in speakers anyway. A last pitch. They have externally mounted crossovers (along with the handmatching of the drivers to within .5db something almost nobody else does and certainly nobody at this price). This means you can fine tune the speaker, especially the tweeter w/o having to tear the speaker apart - just open the crossover compartment on the back of the speaker and add a resistor to the tweeter's signal path. You can add in .5db steps. What a Country! It is also very easy to add a sub later if you are a bass freek.

Avoid stupid Mistakes. You can probably do this simply by following the conversation here at Audiogon on different points and paying attention to what brands get good reviews over a few weeks. No state secrets here.

Matching Components: Books are written about technical aspects of each component and I am not smart enough to write one and you probably do not want to spend the time to become an electrical engineer before you buy. A couple obvious and common mistakes to avoid. I'll let some other folks give others as this is already way to long.
1)Buy a speaker that presents a fairly constant load to the amp. This makes the amp's job lots easier. The speaker is an inductor and acts like a resistor in the circuit (big over simplification but hey). The nominal impedence that is listed on most speakers is very misleading. Impedence always varies with frequency (and other things)and sometimes the manufactureer gives rather dubious figures. Make sure the load is good through the entire frequency 20-20kHz. This makes Amp's job easier. Well designed speakers do this. 2) Try to buy a fairly effecient speaker. One recent post inquired about buying an amp for a Paradigm 100 which was rated by Paradigm as about 90db (trying to remember here). An astute poster noted that Paradigm's measurements were off and that it really performed in the low 80s according to independant testing. Big difference in what you want from an amp - need more power to make them sing! The N Creek speaker is a true 90.5 (over 90 is considered quite effecient) and presents about as constant a load as you find. You will not need a huge expensive muscle bound amp to make them get up and go.
3) Amp: Watts is not where it's at. If it were every K-Mart amplifier would be a winner. Again these can change with frequency (and other things). Look for "continuous" watts or RMS(Root Mean Square) when you inquire about the amps power and remember "power" is two separate things (at least). If you know anything about electricity you know the "Pie" rule. Amp's power is 2 sided (at least) Power=current(I) times Voltage(e). Make sure your speaker can deliver some current when the time arises.( See one above - Impedence (in Ohms) will fall at some frequencies (lower) and the amp has to be able step up to the job.)

If you get a speaker that is fairly effecient and presents a fairly constant load and an amp that can push a little current you will have a nice match generally, or at least you have avoided a couple common mistakes.

I'll let someone else tell you why you want class A operation because my insomnia is no longer keeping me awake.

Good luck and let us know what you buy will you !

Sean: meant no offense.

The last sentence in the paragraph where I commented on spending 1500 on speakers was "unless you get some really exceptional deal/value out of proportion to what you spend." Obviously, if you get a 5k pair of great speakers for $500 you did just that. I tried to point out this kind of buy in the paragraph where I talked about the law of diminishing returns too when I noted "general rules about what you have to pay for good stuff are broken everyday by folks here at Audiogon." This applies to any general rule I state too! You're a smart buyer and have been around and you found a great deal. Doesn't surprise me. By the way, I'm a big fan of old equipment too. Old speakers and Dynaco 70s that you can tweak a little. But if you start down that road all normal rules for what you have to pay go out the window. IMHO ,You can't expect someone new to start out modifying old equipment.

I also based all of my general comments on buying new only if its exceptional. I gave a whole paragraph on the simple point: general rule: do not buy retail. I think the Northcreek Kit is an exceptional value for reasons stated above and he can get the NAD under $500 at Audiogon now. I think that is a value too.

It really just comes down to a simple difference of opinion between how much of a 5k budget to spend on speakers. Probably we just disagree. Barring some great deal on one of the components that throws everything off, I would normally go with over 50%. Lots of folks do not agree. I said that folks wouldn't agree with me in the last sentence of my first post so I can't say I'm much surprised.

This does not make me a "Speaker first, last and always" guy. As Whatjd calls me. Nor do I want an unbalanced system for the sake of speakers. In my first post, first thing, I asked Krazeeyk if he intended to upgrade and specifically stated that my recomendations were based on the idea that he was. Why not build a system that is readily upgradable if that is what you are thinking? I have seen friends drop all sorts of cash in endless rotations of equipment that could have been avoided had they thought about their final goal at the beginning. No poster had discussed this and I thought it a valuable thing to mention and discuss. A friend dropped an Audiomat Arpege in that set up after a year and it is really quite a system. Only kicked in 1k to do it. She is happy as a clam now and the system sounded good in the beginning too. No big sacrifice to start out -no wasted bucks.

Didn't mean a blow to the kahunas. I've read some of your posts and respect your opinion on stuff. We just disagree here. It ain't so bad to disagree w/ someone named Clueless.

Stay Cool,
I remain

My suggestion is to follow Paul's suggestion.

Sincerely, I remain