@david_ten Taiko Audio SGM Extreme 6Moons review:
"The Mount Everest of PC-Based Streamers" Blue Moon Award!
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/taiko/ nice review! you ought to hear the Extreme with the MSB Select II. pretty awesome. agree that my local files are better than streaming, but i don’t get any of that streaming edgyness that the review referred to. not sure their network set-up was ideal. i think in a review temporary install you don't quite get the natural sorting out that would otherwise happen. |
Mike - how can local vs streamed files sound better? How can you sense ’edgyness’ from one vs the other if the bitstream is the same. The MSB Select II supports a bit-perfect test file. Play the test file from SGM Extreme or ’pick any server’ using local or streamed and it will be reported by the MSB as being ’bitperfect’. So the innards of the MSB get all the bits 100%. So its not data corruption; its not jitter ...but the sound is different? Follow the evidence, Mike, it’s all about analog noise. Each server throws off a field of RF energy that gets into the DAC. Via signal, via power or through the air. This is the core issue here.
@dmance did you read the review that was linked? and also read my comments? my comments referred to that review. they use a totaldac, not an MSB dac. i made no mention of hearing any edginess from my Extreme/MSB setup. and if you read that review it explains why local files sound better than streaming files. I’m no techie; I’m just a listener who reports what I hear. and that is what I hear. I don’t get caught up in technical rationalizations contradicting my perceptions. btw; Emile Bok, the Extreme designer also agrees that local files sound better than streaming. you could contact him and make your case. he is a techie. and when he visited me last fall we both heard these same things from the Extreme/MSB combination. |
@david_ten
yes, absolutely; the SGM Extreme is the perfect streaming server. but it’s also the perfect server for local internal PCIe files, and the perfect server for using an outboard NAS. and i’ve used it all three ways.
over the last 9 months with the Extreme 2 significant things have happened. (1) my ratio of files to streaming listening has gone from 75%/25% to 20%/80%. and (2) my file purchasing has gone from 5-10 a month to zero.....or maybe 1 every couple months. streaming simply delivers on so many levels it checks all my boxes. this direction had not been happening previously with me.....i had been pursuing buying files vigorously. and what i had was not chopped liver, the 2015 SGM server, one of the top choices besides the Extreme.
i don’t want to hold myself up as any expert on DIY computer audio or techie computer stuff. so i all i can do to make my technical case is to encourage anyone to read the reviews and Romaz posts referenced earlier in the thread for those points to be made. what they say is that digital audio is about extreme computing headroom, separating processing needs appropriately, and dealing with EMI/RFI and cooling needs to keep things operating in the proper design envelope. it why the damn thing weighs 90 pounds.
i’ve found that the same bump in performance listening to my files was found at least as much in my streaming. all digital processing makes the same multi-pronged demands of the CPU. the uncompromising design of the Extreme delivers.
what i can speak about with authority is the astonishing sonic performance when i switch from local files to streaming, then to my vinyl or tape and back to digital......the digital holds up completely.
i still like my files; and have favorites i’ll always return to, but the excitement of streaming daily is a huge deal, and the Extreme makes it so inviting. |
i’m not in a position to debate the technical side of this. but my understanding is that when it comes to digital audio, local files, NAS sourced files, or streaming files, all have the same needs from a CPU. and our performance expectations should be the same too.
sure; you won’t find streaming 352-24 or 4xdsd files; but that is a small part of file listening anyway. my streaming includes plenty of high rez. |
interesting how many opinions we have here about what can’t have an effect on digital audio, servers, reading files, and streaming.
you read this stuff in a book? or actually personally tested these things?
just for the record.
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With a server, we get so many dingbats and ridicule for pulling the stops out, but we are not complaining as the Extreme can sing for itself ;-) there are infinitely more so-called digital experts than analog ones. everyone has a computer. the odds of stumbling over one are strong. especially the one’s who already know everything. it requires an open mind and open ears to move the reference forward. |
i have a dac at the tip top of the dac food chain, the MSB Select II with mono powerbases. it has amazing performance and price to match. but if i was wanting to get streaming at the top of the heap i would focus more on getting the tip top server; which is what i have.....the SGM Extreme server. you can match the Extreme with a number of great dacs not as spendy as my MSB and still get really fine streaming performance. i love how Quboz and Tidal sound on my system. the Extreme is clearly the best performing server, and has excellent support and is very future proof. not much on Audiogon on this server; but here is a link to a thread on another forum, and a link to the Extreme home page. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-cr%C3%A8me-de-la-cr%C3%A8me.27433/ http://taikoaudio.com/product/sgm-extreme/ it’s awesome and has taken the top level server market by storm. |
I don't doubt that the SGM Extreme is a great server streamer but dual Xeon processors and 48 gigs of ram? All you're doing is storing and streaming music not 3D rendering and VR design and video editing, isn't this thing a bit of overkill?
high end audio and attaining suspension of dis-belief do require headroom and overkill. that is where ease and naturalness and escape from a digital signature come from. please go to the thread i posted the link to and start reading. i don't have the techie chops to make the technical points, but every possible question and challenge is posted and responded to about servers in general, and the Extreme in particular. |
I’ve been auditioning a ’higher end’ all in one and unfortunately I will not be able to test it with different server. My gut ’sense’ (with respect to this specific unit) is that the server is less critical (to go all out on) in this application. Hopefully I will be able to test and find out for myself definitively. my viewpoint is the opposite. the server is a larger roadblock to great streaming sound than the dac. why? very simple. line up 10 dacs from $5k to $25k, and try to tell the difference. blindfolded. it’s not very easy. line up multiple servers.......including the Extreme......whoa......big difference. these days very fine sounding dacs are trivial to come up with. the Extreme weighs 80 pounds. eighty pounds. why? heat and noise. it’s just physics. and who is willing to go to that ’Extreme’? only one company. the best sounding dacs are expensive, and can be crazy expensive. and they do sound better. all things being equal they will sound better. but all things are rarely equal. and the Extreme is a breakthrough product which has been a game changer. |
Servers do heavy lifting in heavy lifting environments, streaming music files is not one of them unless you're Tidal or Qobuz. You’re better off keeping the server side completely away from the audio components connecting to a good streamer DAC like some mentioned here. Good DAC’s today filter noise and distortion and reclock the stream from the internal embedded clock as long as you’re not feeding it a garbage signal, use a decent NAS or server on a good strong network there’s no need to go bonkers price wise with the server side.
your thinking is about 3 years behind the current bleeding edge. which is perfectly fine if you are happy. if you are wanting the best possible digital music reproduction you have some work to do. |
1--i have the MSB v2 Renderer module for my Select II, and when i first got it it was marginally superior to the USB. i could quickly switch back and forth and it was close. this was with using the 2015 SGM server as the Roon end point. but understand a renderer is a CPU inside your dac, so it brings with it noise.
2--then i got the new Extreme server, which was a huge step up in performance. and MSB introduced the Pro USB module, which inserted a fiber optic interface between the USB and the Select II. this clearly boosted the performance with USB beyond the Renderer. and removing my ’now idle’ Renderer module from my Select II slightly lowered the noise, since it’s a CPU.
3--then further i upgraded my USB cable to the Gobel Lachorde USB, another step up, and added fibre optic to my LAN which was another step up.
4--i moved my files from a NAS on my LAN to 32 tb of PCIe drives inside the Extreme. GAME OVER.
much more detail is on that very long thread.
the Extreme is not for everyone, and i’m not qualified to answer questions in detail about this stuff. but there is no doubt that the Extreme is better than other servers by a wider margin than the difference in dacs in the middle range of price. so get a decent dac and an Extreme instead on doing the dac upgrade merry-go-round. it’s a streaming world out there and servers do the heavy lifting in it. your dac can only be as good as what it's fed. the server performance is a limitation to that. |
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If anyone wants to hear the Extreme server and they happen to be in my neighborhood, east of Seattle, they would be most welcome. It’s awesome. And I have 20tb’s of files, Quboz and Tidal to sample. A bit of vinyl and tape too.
You can click on my moniker to view my system.
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There are a number of reasons why and how DCS is separating itself from other companies in the high end of the business. Beside the build quality, the architecture of the latest generation (Bartok, Rossini and Vivaldi) enables the company to continuously update and improve the upsampling and signal processing. In essence you are buying world class hardware that is a future proof-ed through continuous upgrades.
i think the direction of the top level dacs is bit perfect, not up-sampling. bit perfect to my ears (with my MSB) seems to optimize the native recording format more and get closer to heart of the music and sound less processed (less digital). with lower noise dac chips the need to push the sample rate to higher rates to escape the noise is no longer a dominant design parameter. the more simple conversion allowed by bit perfect translates into higher musicality. this is not to say that dCS dacs are not excellent performers. execution of design is still very significant.....and dCS excels at that. but at the end of the day the highest executed bit perfect dacs come out on top to my ears. and going forward advances will double down on that direction. YMMV, just my 2 cents, and all that stuff. |
I am still quite curious if anyone has had meaningful opportunity to check out a single brand - but across the line:
MSB - Premier vs Reference vs Select
i have heard the Reference and Select in the same system at an audio show. i did not hear them quickly A/B. and it was a show system and not my own files and server. but i could hear the differences. you hear farther into the music with the Select, more textures and nuances. less processed. more like my analog. but the Reference does all of those same things, just less by degrees. same family sound and sense of musical rightness. heard the Premier but not with the other two. similar sound, less by degrees. as you might expect, there is a bigger jump from Premier to Reference, than Reference to Select.....but there is a magic with the Select that is singular. the laws of diminishing returns are legit.....but at the top of the heap there is a prize. :-) |
regarding the MSB ’house sound’, i am only intimate with my Select II. which i compare every day with my 3 turntables and 3 reel to reel tape decks. and my view is that i can go back and forth between all those and expect that the MSB will render the music like those others. maybe short in degrees of suspension of disbelief to those highest level analog wonders.
the MSB is a ’truth’ machine. it gets out of the way of the original recording and allows it to be transparently related. and does this without tipping up or drying out the tonality, keeping it real, liquid and natural. the MSB has that micro-dynamic energy, and textural nuance that comes from not over-processing the musical message from the media. more math is not our friend as music lovers.
hear a piano, or violin, or massed strings with the MSB; things that digital really struggles with, and you can hear more of how they should sound.....to my ears. like how my analog does those things. past digital got relatively called out in comparison.
i hear these same things (in lesser degrees) in the Reference and Premier and their analog volume controls are very transparent, like the Select. |
MSB, is a breed apart at the top of the line. and a price to match. build quality is on a different level with dual mono power supplies, and casework out of solid billet. the modular design is appropriate since digital interfaces seem to evolve. and MSB designs and builds everything in-house, including miniaturizing their modules. for myself, in my just over 2 years of owning the MSB i’ve had 3 new modules at very reasonable costs and zero cost firmware upgrades. great support from MSB.
their passive analog volume control is legendary and it takes a very spendy stand alone preamp to equal or surpass it. the dCS approach of multiple boxes requires multiple expensive signal cables and power cables. in some systems that alone could pay for the difference in cost.
10 year warranty and upgrades at the retail price difference included.
lots of real design and build value, beyond the performance aspects. |
regarding the consideration of digital and vinyl budget balance and degree of over-the-bleeding-edge for either or both, i don’t think i’m a good person to follow. i’m all in and doubled down on both + tape all in too. i’m crazy, so "don’t try this at home". i just added 2 more turntables (not yet posted on my audiogon system page) with all the ancillary gear that comes with that to my long term turntable.
were i starting over and sane, i would likely just go all in on digital, since new music and streaming is where it all is going. i’m a baby boomer, love my vinyl and classic rock, and so i’m hard wired for the analog thing.
as far as support for my digital in my system besides the MSB dac, mono power supplies, and clock; i currently used ’double-Daiza’s’ under each of the three MSB boxes + server ($1200 x 4), 3 Absolute Fidelity power cords ($1800 x 3), the MSB Pro USB interface ($1500) with the Gobel Lachorde USB cable ($5200), the SGM Extreme server with 32tb of PCIe drives ($28k) plus a fiber optic as the last leg of my LAN ($500).
i use a .75 meter set of Evolution Acoustic 50 ohm BNC interconnects ($5k) between the MSB Select II and my darTZeel preamp.
obviously the Extreme is......well......Extreme. and sounds like it. lots of more reasonable choices. otherwise nothing too radical or outlandishly expensive for the bleeding edge of digital performance.
until a few months ago i did use one of my Taiko Tana active devices ($16k) under my dac box; i've re-tasked that under a new phono stage since the 'double-Daiza' does the job so well when all the pieces and server use the same passive method.....a synergy type thing. now all my analog boxes plus my mono block amps use those Tana's......another synergy type thing.
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@ufguy73 if i was starting over i would not mess around with silver discs (CD’s or SACD’s) at all; if i had some i would rip them to files. it would be files and streaming only. think about it this way; silver discs are now 30 years old as a format. it’s a mature format and optimized. playing files is now about 10 years old and it’s now just getting mature and it’s surpassing the best transport performance and it will keep getting better as discs stay the same. there is no economic pressure to make disc playing better. it’s all on file and streaming performance. follow the money and you will find truth. i’m not a techie, so i hesitate to try and explain what you can’t do with digital. there are any number of one box solutions (dac/server+ file storage/streaming) at various price points. but those are not options at the higher level of digital. how high do you want to go in performance? files can reside inside the server, or in a NAS, or in a laptop, or your phone, or not at all and just stream. as far as the other questions about high level source investment (digital and/or vinyl) and whether your current system can fully optimize them that is a wide open question beyond this thread. i’d maybe need to get educated on your gear exactly. email me and we can exchange phone numbers and we can talk about it. B&W and McIntosh are certainly high end brands and that is not likely a limitation on the face of it. the questions become about where the biggest bang for your buck is in overall performance, and how far do you intend to go in the foreseeable future. these type situations get very complicated. i would not want to shoot from the hip. [email protected] |
The MQA music is often very poorly recorded. I listen to them every single week when I look for new music. No audio format will ever give you a better result in the quality of the recording.
@bo1972, do you ever compare an MQA streaming recording, to the native high rez file? it's easy. go to HD tracks and download the highest rez. or maybe to the analog tape source? this is harder to do, but not impossible. and what level of sources do you use for that high rez native file, or analog tape? this is an important part. you have to properly hear the source to judge what MQA does......or does not....do. |
whatever diminished relevance this thread was clinging to, bo has extinguished.
and i’ll never get the 90 seconds it took to write my last response back. |
bo1972 could be an A.I. bot gone off the reservation. seems not to be completely sentient. |
