High quality subwoofer - which one?


I’ve owned my C4’s for about six months now, and they are excellent. But, you can’t ask a speaker to things it isn’t big enough to do. What that is, is to go FLAT to 20 Hz. The Vandersteen Quatro’s had built-in 250 watt class B powered subwoofers that are to die for once you hear them. The blemish on the Quatros, and it is a small one, was the slightly veiled lower midrange. The C4’s are absolutely seamless everywhere they go. The lowest bass can be fixed and most would probably say it’s not even necessary...until you hear a real sub system that is. Once you hear the effortlessly smooth low-end of a dedicated sub woofer you just can’t forget about it.

I started looking at subwoofers, and they are expensive, but relative to what this hobby’s cost(s) can be on some item(s), they are affordable. Well, ONE is affordable, anyway. I have three models that seem to all be nice products, and was curious what the feet on the street have used and your likes / dislikes. One model that I have not included needs an external hi-pass filter and I may be dismissing this model out of hand…and shouldn’t be and if you use this model, convince me.

I have a pretty large room (16’ wide x 40’ long x 8.5’ high (ceiling is split at 7.5’ and 9’)) so a bigger sub may be needed. Right now, I’m thinking ONE sub crossed-over pretty low. The C4’s do go pretty deep, but I probably agree that two would be “best” but expensive and the narrower room might make double placement hard. One is a snap, between the speakers away from the wall or near the right corner. I do not play “loud” (80-85 dB SPL average based on my radio shack SPL meter) but still like the smooth deep bass of a sub. Crazy loud isn’t the issue, but the sound quality is.

The choices are mind boggling in cost (JL Audio in mono or stereo) or mono (VELODYNE DD15+) verses stereo (SVS PB13 Ultra) set-ups at the same price. I have three options below to illustrate this.

The set-up that seems too expensive but outrageously good;
JL Audio Fathom f113 - $3600.00 / 13” / 2500 watts peak class D amplifier / sealed box.
But the sub needs a high-pass Cross-over like a Bryston 10B-STD @ $3,500.00

This is expensive compared to the SVS, but is it better than TWO SVS units?
Velodyne DD15 Plus - $4,000.00 / 15.0” / 1250 watt continuous class D amplifier / sealed box.

This seems like a good price but is the product good enough even if the price is? Use TWO of these in place of one DD15 Plus?
SVS PB13-Ultra - $2,000.00 / 13.5” / 1000 watts continuous class D / ported box.

So what have we done with subwoofers and why? This got real complicated real fast. Ported, vented, stereo at the same price as a mono sub ETC. The odds of auditioning these monsters are about zero as you hear the room. My room seems to be pretty good down low based on my Quatro set-up with powered subs. If a decision isn’t easy, I’m missing something…a lot of something’s it turns out.
rower30

Showing 7 responses by rower30

OK, we're getting some good info. Right now, I'm REALLY confused why top of the line sound quality subs do not have high-pass filters for 2.1 or 2.2 systems (or sell one). Everything seems to be for home theater gears high pass electronics that is NOT as good sounding as my RLD-1 platinum pre and KISMET amplifiers that I WILL keep using! So much for my rant, back to physical reality of what's out there...

The "sound" is related to the high-pass filter, so it seems that top-flight vendors would want to control that effort to hold quality. Sure, a sub made for LFE home theater doesn't really have to be a good "music" sub. But, the one I buy does have to be MUSIC more than LFE. This means some options will require a high quality low pass filter. I know of ONE, the Bryston 10B-SUB. Still, $4,000.00 for a crossover? If I go this route, and buy a sub and the cross -over, the economy will change throughout the world. When I bought the C4's it improved to where it is now!

The Velodyne DD 18 plus would be the single sub choice based on cost / performance as it has a high-pass filter...so I can use it any way I want. They say the DD 18+ is the most expensive sub out there, but it IS NOT for true 2.1 users! Yes, maybe for home theater guys and gals it is who use HT pre-amp. Subs that need a high-pass filter (unless I can be convinced that this isn’t so) are really WAY, WAY more expensive to use in a 2.1 system.

1.0 If I cross-over low enough, I don't need a high pass cross-over?
- Some have said, elsewhere, that the benefit of a sub is to take intermodulation distortion out of the speakers and get it to the sub, improving clarity and dynamics. I'd probably not get this benefit running the C4's full range with a sub X-over set about 40 Hz or so as the C4's cone excursions aren't reduced.

2.0 Most seem to think an 80 Hz low pass frequency is a good starting point...with a high pass filter (Velodyne DD18 plus allows this). And, this removes big cone excursions from drivers playing mid range information, improving clarity.

Talk to me more about the use of a high-pass filters (or not) with subs. The manuals for the subs are TERRIBLE at set-up configuration details. I've read them all and there are nothing but questions in my mind. Does modern sub digital room compensation INCLUDE the output from your main speakers running full range while you EQ and tune accordingly? Older technology that could not do this REQUIRE a high-pass filter?

ANOTHER SUB SELECTION;
From another angle, the Paradigm SUB 1 is a three sided driver arrangement that "spreads" the room loading in three dimensions smoothing the response of a single room position sub. And, it has the output of two 12" drivers using six eight inch drivers. The digital EQ is reported to be VERY, VERY good. But, this sub doesn't have a high pass filter, either. The to be or not to be high-pass filter question remains.

What's so odd, is that the sound you EQ (The C4's and my Quatro are about the same on warble tones, 77+/- 5 dB variation from 20-100 Hz, but the Quatro has it all over the C4 playing actual music. A speaker that is INACCURATE on warble tones and ACCURATE on DYNAMICS would seem to sound better than a speaker that is ACCURATE on warble tones but INACCURATE on dynamics. BOTH would be super. But, the trade-off in a full range speaker is HUGE size to really get the bass right. I just don't think you can really do it with out a powered sub. The HUGE power in a sub tends to also tell you something! You just can't keep up with even a Boulder 1060 running C4's down low compared to powered subs(s).

The C4's are almost 6 dB down from reference below 30 Hz, that's HUGE power time (over double the watts) to get it flat. The C4's go that low with no doubling, but they are red faced trying to be FLAT and dynamic that low.
I love to hear that the high-pass isn't needed but...

If I use the C4's full range and use the digital room processor function on the sub, WHAT pray tell smooths out the C4's room bass response? It seems like the mish-mash of the C4's and the sub would be unmanagable...and the advantage of limiting intermodulation distortion would be lost.

I thought that this was "AUDIO" and not an LFE web site. Yes, movies are fun, but I use a high-end AUDIO system for 2.1 (or will be once I get all this sorted out). I'm not being mean, but MUSIC is my main objective not sound effects.

I agree subs are probably HT biased, but the one's that are "supposed" to me music biased seems to me should offer a quality HP filter system as an option, or outboard option. Why KILL audio 2.1 or 2.2 buyers? OK sure, make it at least an option!

So I seem to be stuck on the Velodyne DD-18 Plus / JL Audio Fathom f113 or the Paradigm SUB1. The Velodyne has a High-Pass, so I can go either way with it. All are expensive, but they seem pretty good. The SUB1 probably is the best "active" EQ unit where the DD-18+ is pretty good if you use the manual EQ and learn to cut peaks and leave holes alone if a few dB of boost don't fill them.

Still, I'm learning. The REL seems like a good idea (witness Vandersteen's powered speaker internal sub solution)that I know works. I need to look into this product.
New info so far;

REL and Vandersteen use a similar approach, but they BOTH lack any sort of in-room EQ, that is critical to performance. Great HP system and signal integration system on the Vandersteen, though.
-Vandersteen Quatro series speaker on up uses the same clever integration system as their subs, but add eleven band EQ. I wonder WHY this is not on their subs? It is essentially the same system, and they KNOW IT!
-REL is old school move it till it works and HUGE cabinets to get low-end response. Yes,it can sound good but you have no real room for two ported subs. And, they don't High Pass the signal. Somehow, REL seems behind a generation of room EQ. You may get it to sound good, but will you like where it/they are?

Too bad the Vandersteen doesn't have the eleven-band room EQ, I see this as a major goof that was developed in their upper speaker line. I wonder what gives there? So again, they seem behind, too.

The Paradigm SUB1 seems good till you realize it gives up the stereo option at any where near a reasonable price, especially with no real HP option that is affordable. The Sub1 is MONO and EXPENSIVE.

I'm not a proponent of running the C4's full range "over" a sub's response. You would never make any speaker this way so why splices one on top of another for the bass? It makes no sense to me other than HT / LFE doesn't care as much about accuracy.

That said, I've looked into STEREO placement and the time and phase information differs from channel to channel, so stereo (true right and left channel) subs is the way to go. It seems too many people neglect the differences between true right and left and just go for sound QTY. Two 10 inch subs offers more area(157 in SQR) than one 13.5 inch sub (143 in SQR)and faster transients, too. You lose a touch of REALLY deep bass, but should more than make up for it in stereo imaging, response and room smoothness. Dynamic range isn't a problem with two 10" subs.

The price is about the same for two smaller Velodyne DD10 Plus subs as one DD18 Plus. The stereo option is just too compelling to give up. And, the Velodyne brand will let you either go full range or High-pass at 100 or 80 Hz removing the C4's from low bass duties improving intermodulation distortion and imaging precision. To me, that is more important than 4 HZ on the bottom end or a few extra dB of headroom as I don't listen HT "loud".

So far it seems to be the DD-10+ or DD12+ x 2. You get;
Ability to high pass OR run full range.
Room EQ option (manual works great).
True stereo at a reasonable price.
Smaller size with a sealed box.
Good reputation for sound.
Great looks.

Talk me out of this.
More info;

I talked with Paradigm about their SUB1 at length and, a friend who is a overseas representative. So, there is "some" bias, true.

But, the SUB 1 has some very good points about it.
1.0 Three directional driver groups melt to a location smoother than one front firing driver. Some say this is less than more of an effect.
2.0 Smaller drivers are very fast.
3.0 Paradigm does seem to have the very best auto EQ on the market, one that really works.
4.0 They say the sub 1 is specifically designed, like most non high pass subs, to work with existing speakers full range, the more full range the better. I'm slowly starting to accept this premise with amazing digital room EQ.
5.0 ONE of these is EXPENSIVE, though ($4,000.00). But, the last major point is that phasing information is above 40Hz or so, and on the C4's I'm told it will set itself in nicely pretty low, so one sub isn't effecting imaging with this full range speaker, or others flat to 40 Hz in room.

Wow, what I ride on subs. I'm off to listen to this thing this weekend. It does seem to be a tidy and accurate sub, with good press, and a good match to the C4's (on paper so far, anyway).

Any good flack to come my way on this choice?
Yes, I'm still not fully appreciative of a single sub. The L+R summed info can cancel detail a stereo option won't.

The real direction the market has headed is just the home theater LFE channel option, which is a dedicated summed source, and was never stereo to begin with.

True Hi-fi subs are STEREO on L / R are NOT the same information! This is why true separate subs seem important. And, if you argue L/R differentation it isn't right, you're "wrong" but still overall right as two subs is still better than one for dynamic range and smoothness.

I like the general concept of the Paradigm SUB1, but can't get past a mono sub in my head. It's too expensive for two! And, you lose all the application options (full range verses high-pass option with the Velodyne) so you're stuck losing part of the advantage of using subs, to remove the load off you main speakers. I just can't figure out how this concept is "dated" by DRC software. For HT maybe, but not hi-def stereo.

So right now I'm;
75% two x Velodyne 10 Plus.
25% one x Paradigm SUB 1.

I appreciate everyone's input. Crowd sourcing the answer is usually a better answer!
Halcro,

Yes! That's exactly why I want to go stereo. Remember that the article was done in 2000, and Digital Room Correction was not really available at all. So the room was really making a Vandersteen subs a variety of different products in each room!

WHY he has not updated the subs too include digital or manual EQ like he has in the Quatro, 5A and model 7 is beyond me. Yes, yes, yes this is a great sub EXCEPT you can't get near what you need in room EQ compared to today’s EQ'ed products that can be set-up "right".

It seems that the JL Audio and Velodyne are all CLASS A rated by many sources. The Velodyne offers far more flexibility in set-up. True, it is like a road map, the only roads that matter are the ones you end up using (and it may be the full range set-up road with no high pass!) I can contrast and compare both methods with the Velodyne.

But yes, the SOUND is so hard to argue, I haven't heard anything. My Quatro was great (but it was EQ'ed to my room!!) so the Vandersteen sub is out of date to even his current knowledge.

And yes, the C4 is flat to about 45Hz in a real room, yet it has "response" to 27 Hz without doubling. It is NOT nearly strong enough (flat) down real low to hold nearly the dynamics of a powered sub system let alone be FLAT at 25 Hz! This is reality. And, any driver playing lower midrange with large cone excursions will have a LOT more intermodulation distortion, this is also a reality.

The good news is, DRC has allowed users to set-up subs to properly sound the bass, very much unlike the old days.

So if I KNEW the roads on the map I need (full range and blended subs verses the high-pass option) it would open-up or remove choices. As big a pain as this is, I'd rather error on the side of choices, which seems to be the Velodyne. And yes, this is all metal arithmetic right now...drat it!
First, Vandersteen INCLUDES all those "nasty" EQ settings on the Quatro, 5A and model 7 (not much is better than product). Done right they are excellent. Two, a subs response is the ROOM it is in on. Yes, the floor standers are positioned for best imaging, not bass, so "more" EQ may be needed. But, that does NOT mean that a top flight sub should not offer some room EQ. This isn't harsh, it is what it is...a user feature to maintain a better overall response.

The feature has been built-in to all three Vandersteen models, and could be added to the subs, too. The problem is, according to Richard, that we are too cheap to understand the feature, and buy more on the price. Yes, the sub is located more consistently than the mains but still, you can only move two eighteen inch boxes around so much before the living room is the stereo and there is no place left to live! EQ helps avoid this.

Most subs roll off the bottom at 12 to 24 dB / octave to remove "junk". The top is a first order filter at 6 dB per octave...as is a high-pass filter. More than 6dB per octave would make blending real hard.

Actually, full range passive speakers are the WORST way to get quality sound. Most of the power is eaten-up in the crossover with pads to keep the little guy drivers from frying. And, each amp design is ideally very different for each driver. There is just NO WAY a "full range" speaker, even a C4, can be accurately dynamic and flat with the box size and power necessary to play flat and dynamic below 40 Hz. The C4 crosses-over at a high 730 Hz into the eight-inch drivers, so the two eight-inch drivers are playing a LOT of midrange information. Yes, the two help limit driver motion and intermodulation distortion, so they sound real nice. And I'm glad they biased the speaker this way. But, the bass is NOT as deep, flat, or dynamic as a powered sub system. The best world is with each driver using it's own amp, through an active crossover...things could be VERY different with the exact same speaker.

So, I feel that there is no way a "soft" crossover using just EQ is going to be as good as a true first-order quality hi-pass filter. You have too many things left on the table; main amp is still taxed too much, bass driver have much more intermodulation distortion than necessary, the subs "sound" doesn't take into account the main amps sound with line-level inputs and you don't have much control of what it is (with true active cross-over systems you can PICK the amps you want for sound, even all three the same). Amd. stereo is better at dynamic range and smootness all thigs the same. Things aren't the same, so is ONE SUB1 better "sounding" than TWO Velodynes that may be "smoother and more dynamic? I may never know.

Yes, I've asked Dynaudio about their newer sub 800 series (which has a high-pass). No response from the main camp yet.

I have ruled out ported subs as they have two large phase peaks in the pass band, and can't be a linear as a seal system can be. LOUDER, yes.

The market is just thrown-in the towel for true Hi-fi sound with hi-def TV. It's just that simple. Digital music is trash, and shouldn't be! 24-bit has failed to bring music to the public due to infighting over getting a square deal on production (and they should) as we all go to FREE lossless CODECS (FLAC). Something about the word FREE makes it hard to run a business. The technology should make meeting BOTH demands easier than before, but vendors are driven to distraction to make money for stockholders and not the hi-fi customer. A nickel spent the wrong way (hi-fi) is taken from the bottom line. Their eye is on the ball, it just isn't the one telling you what note to sing playing music.

Right now, the 2Wq Vandersteen sub makes the most sense design wise IF he adds the eleven band EQ feature. If Richard did this, I would RUN not walk to the nearest dealer and by two. It cost money to do this, and for what he sells to true Hi-fi enthusiasts, it just won't pay him back to do it. I'll bet he'd do it even-up! But, he may not even get there. It's a shame, too.

Look at this thread. I've spent hundreds of hours learning the ins and outs of subs. If we all really did this, and really understood what was going on Richard would have a reason to "upgrade" the 2WQ. In the old days, people worked things harder before we bought things, as stuff was not designed to be thrown out.

So, my position is do I use 2Qw's and "hope" I can use them anywhere I go with decent room response and placement and with different speaker, or go with a more flexible but technically not as "sound" a design that has EQ capability (SUB1 or Velodyne) and that sounds maybe more consistent where I want to place it? But if Richard would remove that gamble of room EQ, sign me up now!

You are all great. This has been a fun thread, and I hope we all learn from it. And, since this is hardly an easy decision, I'm glad to see people aren't condemning decisions made by others. Heck, I may have to make a decision and not even HEAR a product I buy let alone all the other! How on earth can I say negative things about a product other than off a design spec? Yep, all I can do is try to "improve" the STD deviation around a guess with a "best" design practice metric limiting my choices. Yes, the “best” product may fall out! So still, that is no guarantee. There are no dealers nearby that will loan, or have, two 120 pound subs (I weight 150 pounds...the sub wins!) to try at home, I called around, let alone even hear. One dealer told me to bring my own laptop and set up the subs myself! I guess PINKIE runs the store and the BRAIN is the customer? That’s no way to rule the world. More than likely, a dealer that wants the business, and sets up the product right will get it. I know only one store that does this, and they sell Vandersteen, so this makes it all the more harder to not reward that dealer and accept the gamble the EQ doesn't matter.