Thanks inna rshad. Inna, yes, I have an Audioquest Diamond USB cable and yes it definitely makes a noticeable difference over a standard cheap USB cable. It is 1.5m long. I’ve never heard that it is better to have a USB cable LONGER than 5ft. Are you sure about that? Mostly I’ve heard people say shorter USB cables are better due to reduced jitter. What would the rationale be to having the cable longer than 5ft?
On another note: my kids are even noticing huge differences in the songs they know. My daughter is noticing how "satisfying" specific sounds are and is constantly pointing out certain sounds. Some passages sound so different she is asking if they are remixes. She is noticing the thing I said about the ending of songs too - she swears these are different versions of the songs. Too cool. My wife on the other hand does not agree that the sound is "non-fatiguing", given that I’ve been running the system almost non-stop :) She doesn’t really care about sound quality and is not into music as much as the rest of us. She is looking forward to when I feel the system is burnt in. I’ve yet to tell her that my dedicated streamer (and corresponding Hurricane Source power cord) will need burning in when it eventually arrives.... One step at a time.
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Thanks rshad. How did you find the burn-in period with your Diablo? How many hours in did the sound start to stabilize?
As I said, I’d be perfectly happy if this is as good as it is going to get, but I’m just wondering what to expect. Thanks! |
Thanks Inna, good advice. My local dealer is really good about loaning demo cables. Regarding Van den Hul, I've always liked them as they tended to smooth out rough edges of harshness in an even way while still being engaging. However, with the Diablo, I don't think that I need to worry about the smoothing out part anymore. I think I could probably shoot for the ultra-transparent cable approach which I know is the general advice on how one should approach cables (it even says this in the Diablo 300 manual).
I do have a question for you, as I know you are of the analogue persuasion. My phono board that came from the dealer's demo Diablo 300 (at a large discounted price) is the PS2 model from Gryphon. I noticed they now have a PS2-S model, released at the start of this year. From what I can tell, the only difference in the new model is that it now supports quite a few different impedances for use with MC cartridges: 20/100/200/499/806 Ohms, or even a custom load, settable using jumpers that have a resistive load. In comparison, my PS2 board only supports 20 and 200 Ohms. I know very little about this stuff - how much should I care that my PS2 board doesn't have this flexibility? And, do you know if that is all that changed between PS2 and PS2-S?
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No, I have a new AudioQuest Hurricane Hi-Current power cord now. Rshad said he had trouble actually hearing much difference between power cords with the Diablo. Maybe because the power regulation is very good so the PC doesn’t seem to do much? I will try testing against the stock cord once the Hurricane is burnt in.
Oh, and my AudioQuest Diamond USB is 1.5m. |
The additional detail that is starting to come through is just adding to that “texture” effect to the sounds voices and instruments that I referred to. Why this is so satisfying is that this detail is so fine-grained that it takes on a satin-smooth quality, as opposed to the detail being harsh and jarring like more analytical amps can be. And, this effect applies to all tones from bass, mids, vocals, and high frequency. |
Hi All,
At about 36 hours in, the Diablo sounds much as it did before, but definitely with a bit more detail and sound-staging. So that I can detect the differences, I’ve been cycling through the same 25 tracks or so.
I didn’t mean to imply that the Gryphon’s sound is heavily coloured or anything, it’s not. But I find its sound to have a certain indescribable “glow” to the music that is missing from some of the more analytical gear I tested, such as from SimAudio (which I found to be very incredibly detailed with great sound-staging, but ultimately sterile, dry, and uninteresting). By the way my family still likes the chassis of the SimAudio the best, which I have to agree is extremely high quality. But I like my Gryphon/bat-amp the best.
Hemoncdoc, you are lucky to live near a dealer like that! And, nice system. I’ve not done any serious listening with Sonus Fabers, but from what I’ve heard I’ve really liked them. And it was the Amati’s that I actually heard at the dealer - connected to Naim equipment.
The dealer who I bought the Gryphon from doesn’t allow in-home demos period. I even offered to pay a big sum of cash to facilitate an in-home demo. Guessing they may have had bad experiences with damaged gear, etc. One thing I noticed when I borrowed demo gear from my local shop, is that when I powered on the McIntosh MC452 it stunk like cigarette smoke and had the general smell of other people’s homes! Because my local dealer has loaned me so much gear, and I’ve shopped there most of my life, I’m buying all cables and other things from them.
And no, unfortunately my dealer did not inform me that my demo Gryphon phono board was discontinued. I still have not yet had a chance to discuss this with them. I am doubtful they even were aware of the new board to be honest, but I guess that’s not good either. On the other hand, it appears the new board is almost identical save one new feature, which is support for multiple and custom impedance settings (which I really don’t know if I should care about or not). I will discuss with my dealer this week. Ultimately I’m not too concerned, seeing as my dealer says the demo board I had was not actually ever connected to a turntable, and I got it for a bit less than half the price of a new one. The only thing that could come of this if I cared is that I pay more money, return this board and get a new one. I doubt it is worth doing that.
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Agreed, so far, changes are subtle, and as I said unlike most gear I've bought in the past, the Diablo sounded great from the moment I plugged it in and tried playing something. It is not like the changes I am noticing are large, and if I wasn't playing the same 25 tracks on repeat I doubt I would have noticed.
One of the amps I tested was the Bryston 4B3, which I had purchased from a different dealer who said they don't do in-home demos but that I could return the amp within 30 days for a full refund. I warned the salesguy at the time that I would almost certainly be returning the amp after trying it, but wanted to compare with others like McIntosh and Simaudio. He said no problem at all! I bring up the Bryston as I believe in the manual they stated that the amp was burned in for 100 hours or something like that (can't remember the exact amount but it was large). However, I did actually notice very large improvements over 200 hours of burn-in time, despite the fact that it was significantly burned in at the factory. I've heard some people say that even after burnin, Brystons take hours of use before they sound their best, and it appears that the length of burn-in period may be equipment-dependent.
Too bad I couldn't support these other dealers that have been so helpful loaning me demo equipment (or offering 30 day full refunds), they seemed only too happy to do that for me. But they didn't offer Gryphon, so.... It was funny, one place had never heard of Gryphon and the other had, but didn't really know anything about the company or products. My local shop (that didn't sell me the Gryphon) was admiring all the internal photos I took when I was installing the DAC and phono board, and noted how well-made everything looked. They said they doubt I'd ever need service based on the pictures. I brought in the remote to show them too.
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Just an update: sound has continued to develop (The Diablo is up to 50 hours now), albeit very subtly now.
I wonder if the large class A bias of the Diablo 300 integrated contributes to a shorter burn-in period. My non-expert theory is that since the transistors never turn fully off in a class A biased system, current is always following through the system when it is on, regardless of whether there is an input audio signal or not. This maybe contributes to a shorter burn-in?
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Hi Rshad, I am up to 100 hours and everything is continuing to sound fantastic. To be clear, it is not only the amp that is being burned in, but also the DAC module and the AQ Hurricane cord. I don’t know for certain whether I’m continuing to hear any improvement or not, but it doesn’t matter what I play, it just sounds engaging, satisfying, and highly detailed. The sound is incredibly welcoming and inviting. I will note two other cool things I’ve noticed. First, when leaving the “sweet spot” in my listening position (standing up or walking around) I’m fairly certain that the difference is smaller than with other amps I’ve tried before. In other words, with the Diablo the sound doesn’t really degrade as much when moving around. Another thing that is very unique: All the qualities in the sound that I mentioned are there regardless of the volume level. Even when playing music quietly, you can hear really full and highly detailed tones, including bass. I’ve never tried any amp before this that maintained all of its qualities at low volume.
The tiniest critique ever would be that I notice on occasion, when playing music that is quiet or during a quiet passage, and I adjust the volume up or down, I can hear a very subtle pop sound coming from my speakers. It is not really that noticeable and it only happens sometimes. Not really an issue for me but thought I’d mention. Could be related to Gryphon’s two-resistor volume control design? I believe that each volume setting switches to a different resistor or something like that.
Regarding power cords, I’m not planning to try out different brands of cords. Based on yours and others experience I’m just going to stick with the Hurricane. Which apparently requires 400 hours to properly burn in. So I’m only 25% there. When I’m there I will compare with the stock power cord to see what kind of difference there is. In a bit I will see if my dealer can bring in demo Valhalla 2 speaker wire; I am very interested in how these will sound. People describe this wire as similar to how I’d describe the Diablo’s sound - a hair on the warm side, musical, engaging, and loads of texture and detail.
When my Innuos streamer finally arrives (hopefully in early May), I may experiment with a lower end power conditioner to help manage any noise it may introduce on the AC line that is shared with the Diablo.
In short, I am enjoying this amp so much that I find myself wanting to buy another just in case something happens to it after it is eventually discontinued. Just craziness as I can’t afford that. But seriously, if I had to choose a different amp I have no clue what would even come close to the Diablo. Maybe the D’Agostino Momentum integrated but that is far more expensive. But I have not even heard the Momentum and part of the reason I think I like the Diablo so much is that the sonic presentation and voicing matches my subjective tastes. So maybe I do need to save up and buy another! Flemming has retired so who knows if Gryphon can keep improving on the design or not....
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Thanks All. One other really cool touch that is worth mentioning is the little blue flashing light that turns on for a few minutes if you have the DAC module and you haven’t powered the Diablo for a few hours. This light signals that the DAC’s “super-cap” is charging up, which is essentially used as a battery to power the DAC’s USB from an isolated power supply. At least I think that is what it is for. Whatever it is, it’s cool! |
Audiobrian,
Glad to have peaked your interest. Do you live near a Gryphon dealer? There are not that many around...I have seen a pro-review that called the Diablo tube-like. While not pure class A of course, the Diablo does give off more heat than other A/B amps I’ve tried, even if just sitting idle. It also has a light scent of heater/new electronics which is just great! :) |
Thank hemondoc, and I will try adjusting the volume when using other inputs. To be clear, it doesn’t just happen when adjusting from low volume, it happens when adjusting at high volumes too - on occasion. What I meant was, the very soft and occasional pop sound when adjusting the volume will only occur if there is a signal with music playing, with the music being in a very quiet passage so you can actually hear the pop. It does not happen when adjusting the volume with no music signal. It could be DAC related. Similarly, my previous system with an external DAC would make a similar sound when you turned off the source to the DAC (Actually this still happens with the Diablo). For example when you turned off the TV while using the optical input. Anyhow, I’ll play around with the other inputs. Also I’ve been using the remote to adjust volume. Could also be an AC electrical issue or even something to do with my speakers. whatever it is, it is hardly noticeable and only happens sometimes, and in the particular circumstances I mentioned. I’ll play with the other inputs and see what happens.
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If I had to guess, I might be in the top 25% :) If I was lucky enough to be in the 1% I’d have two Antileon monobloks lol! Just a lowly Gryphon integrated amp for the likes of me....
I do do have an AQ diamond USB cable so don’t think that should be the issue. Maybe the “problem” originates in my Mac Mini. |
Just to follow up on the (extremely mild) pop sound when adjusting the volume, I’ve confirmed that it only occurs with the DAC module input. In fact, it specifically only occurs when using the USB input. If using the optical input, there is no pop sound when changing the volume. This is really a non-issue - to give you an idea how quiet the pop noise is, you actually need to put your ear to the speaker to be sure that the click of the volume button on the remote does not drown it out. Next, I will try seeing if it still does this when the DAC’s super-cap (which isolates the USB power from the Diablo) is charging after the Diablo has been off a while, as indicated by the blue flashing light on the front left of the amp. In theory the DAC USB is NOT electrically isolated while the blue light is flashing, so who knows if this is related.
Just curious more than anything - again this is a barely noticeable nit in what is, overall, a phenomenal system that is everything I could have wanted, in particular I still can’t get over how the sonic presentation just works regardless of the type of material I throw at it. It is spooky how it seems to find the particular musical phrasing of a variety of music, and knows to run with it. I don’t think I’ve connected with music this much since I was a kid listening to vinyl and cassette tapes.
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I prioritize. For example, the car I drive is currently worth $3500 according to Auto trader!
Which is perfectly fine by me. Having a system like this gives me far more satisfaction than any car could. Just realized my power cords are worth more than my car! |
Inna, hope you don’t have to wait too long for your Diablo 300. In terms of all the cash you can blow on cables, conditioners, and other accessories, upgrading these can yield incremental improvements. Whereas with the Diablo, even if using just the stock power cord and cheap speaker wire, it still manages to make a major improvement in sound, even over similar priced gear connected with high grade cabling. The difference is way, way above the improvements you can get with cables and accessories. It doesn’t appear to let itself be “bottlenecked” when connected with inferior accessories the way other gear does. It really demands that it’s mark and signature are communicated, regardless of what you connect with it. The one exception the quality of the source, of course. I guess what I’m saying is, save your gear budget for the Diablo 300!
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Lak, unfortunately I have not. But others who have owned both have nudged me towards the Diablo, for better bass control for my particular speakers and the power and current reserves to suit my large room. One forum member who had owned both told me he preferred the Diablo due to it being more engaging musically, whereas the Luxman sounded like he was listening to a HiFi system. Now if I had far more cash, I’d have wanted to test the Luxman 900u pre/power amp. Apparently that is a system that will beat the Diablo. But at double the cost.
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mrc4u thanks for sharing; very interesting setup! I will have to try Focal speakers at some point, as my Gryphon dealer also carries them. Not sure which generation of 803’s you heard, but I also feel that the current B&W generation, while highly detailed and resolving, were not warm enough and didn’t have quite enough body. That goes for the 804’s, 803’s and 802’s that I have heard before. Thankfully my prior generation 803’s, while having noticeably less detail, sound much warmer and richer, and have more punch. I’ll likely upgrade my speakers in a few years time, after I “complete” the rest of my system. It’s great that you have found cables that provide you with the sound you want at a cost that is far more reasonable than the AudioQuests and Nordosts of the world. I am now wondering if I need to be exploring other options to see if I can get similar performance at a lower price point. With the money I save I can put towards a conditioner. Do you know if I can demo either of those brands (Triode Wire Labs or Audience) from The Cable Co? Thanks!
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Actually according to the Cable Co’s site the lending library is for domestic US customers (I am in Canada). So looks like I am stuck with demo cables my dealer can source - the likes of Nordost and AudioQuest. Many other brands too, but not ones I’m familiar with. |
I agree it sounds like we have similar tastes. I’ve always been fighting that shiny-ness and that is the reason I have my current van den Hul D-352 cables. They nicely filter out harshness from lesser equipment that I had before the Diablo, whereas other brands like AudioQuest did not. I do wonder what the added transparency of high end Nordost and AudioQuest cables will sound like with my Diablo. However, I’d love it if those Audience cables would better suit my tastes given the much lower cost.
AudioQuest has a 20% restocking fee for returns; I imagine that Nordost has something similar. But, I believe my local dealer can order in loaner demo cables from these two brands.
So far, I’ll be looking for demos of the AudioQuest Firebird, Nordost Valhalla 2, and the Audience AU24sx.
Logistics of getting a demo of the Audience may be difficult- I will try calling cableco and usedcables.com but demos across the border may be problematic.
In case you missed one of my posts, the slight popping only occurs with the USB input to the DAC module.
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Also found this elsewhere on the forum, which almost seems too good to be true:
“Old thread, but I can chime in here. The Clarus Crimson are extremely good and a bargain at their price point. I replaced a complete Nordost Valhalla and Odin setup with Clarus Crimson, and never looked back. The Clarus added better bass and a more three dimensional, relaxed and organic presentation, without compromising on resolution and micro details. Very musical. Highly recommended.”
There is also a review of the Clarus Crimsons at enjoythemusic.com where the reviewer is raving about them. |
Yep, Shunyata is another high end brand worth trying. I’m hoping to find something I like as much as the high-end / insanely priced cables that is as good. I don’t know if it exists.
Another cable I came across on this forum was the Claris Crimson. A few on this thread were comparing it to the AQ Firebird which I believe is double the cost. Someone mentioned the difference with the Firebird, while a bit clearer, did not justify the cost. Also said the Claris was more 3 dimensional.
I found a Soundstage review of the Claris Crimson and they were saying how well designed and built they are, and how it is as neutral as you can get aside from playing at high volumes (which I don’t). The reviewer called them true reference cables. Has anyone had experience with these cables?
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Hi inna, yes I have an Innuos Zenith MKIII streamer on the way (it is back-ordered). Just as the Zenith MK III is apparently better than the Aurender N10 at close to half the cost, I’m hoping to find something that compares with Nordost Valhalla 2 or AQ Firebird at lesser cost. If it can’t be found, I’ll go for the expensive deluxe brand name stuff. But something tells me I may get lucky with the cables and find one that works well for a lesser cost.
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Thanks ricred1. I'm going to contact Clarus and see how I can get a demo of the Crimson in Canada to test against others on my list. Or see if they have a buy and return policy.
One thing that may be a concern about the Crimson is, based on what other reviewers have said, I may want a slightly more forward mid/upper frequency presentation than the Crimson. However, I am currently biased as with my current inexpensive van den hul cables, I am getting a slightly over-rich and bottom heavy sound with recessed mids and treble (but still amazingly detailed thanks to the Diablo). I know for a fact this is related to my current cables, as that is exactly why I bought them - to tame harsh and thin sounding equipment that I had prior to the Diablo. Also contributing to this is likely that I am currently using rubber dome feet supplied by B&W with my speakers, rather than the spikes. I have a new hardwood floor and am working up the courage to replace the rubber domes with spikes. I know you can get floor-protector cups/discs for spikes, but I fail to see the logic in that approach as the protectors are still not coupled with the floor the way spikes would be. So eventually when I am certain of placement I will spike them to the floor. Which eventually I'll need to do again when I upgrade my speakers (in a few years now..).
Back to cables: despite my current urge to run out an pay an grossly unreasonable amount for some Valhalla 2's to pair with my Gryphon, I am going to be patient with cables and invest time to test carefully, including well-reviewed cables that are less expensive like the Clarus. I'm also thinking it may make sense to wait until my streamer finally arrives (it is back-ordered) and is broken in, so that I am testing cables with a complete system instead of with my Mac Mini. In the meantime, my system still sounds great!
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Regarding room treatments, I’m lucky to have what me dealer says is an ideal situation in my open concept living room. High vaulted ceilings, and no corners next to my speakers. Room to move the speakers out in the room. Listening position 2/3rds of the way into the room. Natural dampening from soft sliding door blinds behind listening position. L-shaped couch which helps with dampening from the one wall which possibly could use some added dampening as it is a high wall.
Maybe this circumstance presents its own challenges; I am not an expert on room acoustics.
Just fired up the Diablo today - it still has that great new electronics/heater scent when you stand over it (when it was brand new the scent filled the room) especially when you first turn it on after it’s been off a while. It’s just great, Gryphon should bottle that and sell as an air freshener accessory!
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Okay I thought the burn in period for my Diablo must have been complete for a while now as I hadn’t been noticing changes for a while. But today I noticed some significant improvement in the upper midrange, which has become lighter crisper and more airy. I notice this especially with snare drums which I’ve been paying close attention to since day 1. Overall slightly more pleasant. I saw another Diablo owner mention that the amp has about a 50 hour burn-in period and that the DAC module requires 200 hours according to Gryphon. Haven’t seen this substantiated; just going by what someone else posted. I’m at about 174 hours. I’m really noticing a difference now! Then there’s the crazy 350-400 hour burn in that my AQ Hurricane cord supposedly needs. Unbelievable if there is still a bit of improvement to go yet; I thought it sounded fantastic on day 1.
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Ricred1 and others, I have a question. I’ve reached out to Clarus directly via email and they confirmed pricing of $1235 for the single wire version of the Crimson, and $1580 for the bi-wire version. This is a fifth of the retail price according to my research and what is reported in reviews. Thinking I should just proceed blind at this price. My question is, do I get the single or bi-wire version?
Thinking this may be too good to be true. First, the customer service, while very prompt, is terrible in the way they communicate. Also, it is clearly set up for distributors, as there is distributor instructions in the email signature. I am wondering if the salesperson who responded is offering me pricing as if I was a distributor, by mistake. At that price, it could be marked up multiple times before getting to the retail price I’ve seen reported in reviews. Should I go for the biwire version?
I‘m still confirming these actually come terminated, and what termination types. If somehow I don’t get what I asked for, I have the email thread and I can always get my credit card company to reimburse me if I get the wrong thing. They don’t do demos and my question on return policy was ignored.
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Yes, 8ft. I know it’s still a lot of cash, but at this price (which seems way less than the prices I’ve seen reported) I’m thinking this could almost be considered temporary as I continue to do more methodical testing, over the course of say, a year. Bear in mind my current cables cost less than $500..... I will ask again about the return policy. Totally agree one should never buy HiFi gear unheard, but at this price, for a cable this well reviewed... |
I've yet to read a single review, from a forum poster or pro reviewer, who had anything bad to say about the Clarus Crimson. Everyone's reviews seem to be extremely positive regardless of the equipment - unusually so. And multiple individuals have said this cable has bested Valhalla and even Odin from Norsdost, which seems crazy. But. After reviewing sonic descriptions, people have described this cable as being rich, musical, big harmonics, vs Nordost which is fast and transparent. I feel my system with the Diablo is currently very rich, musical, with big harmonics already, and as such may benefit from something more along the lines of Nordost, with yes, expensive silver wire. So back to plan A - being patient and testing all cables I can get access to after my streamer arrives. But for those who want a deal on what appears to be a very highly regarded inexpensive cable - try going to Clarus directly!
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Agreed. But the odds are they’ll sound good based on the multitudes of positive reviews each with different equipment! That said you are right and I will be patient and play it safe, and pass up this deal for the time being. They confirmed no returns by the way, so that settles it. |
Yeah, good advice all. And yes Inna I’ll be taking your advice too and seeing if I can get my hands on some Gryphon speaker cable, as well as other premium cables. I am open to testing all cables I can get my hands on that are well reviewed. The only thing is, I’m not sure they can get the demo in. I’ll check! |
Also Inna, do you happen to know the retail price for the Gryphon VIP Reference speaker wires? |
Yes, I’ll be hopefully testing well reviewed lower priced cables (Audience, Clarus, etc) as well as the firebirds/Valhallas of the world. There are many that prefer the sound of lower priced cables. Am very interested in the Gryphon too, which of course falls into the high priced camp! What I test will depend on what I can source for demos. Will start making calls this Saturday if I don’t get too busy with other weekend chores.
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ricred1 I don’t think I asked - what amp, and what else do you have in your system?
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With my Gryphon, I was worried and thought I may not be totally happy with the sound, as with most gear I’ve bought in the past usually I’m not entirely happy, especially in the first month. This hesitation was due to testing the Diablo with different speakers to my own in the dealer listening room. Sounded great in the shop, but I was not, absolutely 100% certain. Turns out my slight reservation was entirely due to the current line of B&W speakers which I find very capable but a bit thin sounding. I knew this going in, which is why I was okay proceeding with the purchase given I have the prior gen B&W’s which sound fuller to me. I do have specific preferences with sonic presentation and the Diablo 300 is EXACTLY what I was after once I got it home. Really didn’t expect that to happen given I hadn’t tested at home with my system and there are so many variables, so yes it was a bit of a gamble given there were no returns or exchanges.... I suppose the lesson is you can get a sense of how a component will perform at home in your system PROVIDED you have a sense of the characteristics of the paired components in the “foreign” system. Just as I had a very clear up front sense of exactly how the current line of B&W speakers in the shop demo would sound for me, and I knew up-front that they wouldn’t 100% give me as rich of a sound as I was looking for. Given that I had this up front knowledge, testing with these was of far more value than testing with something totally unknown to me like Sonus or Focal. I need to get acquainted with more speakers and gear in general to better inform me in the future when I’m testing new gear paired with other equipment that I don’t own. Thinking I should plan a trip to my Gryphon dealer just to listen to the Sonus Fabers and Focals, while I have the chance and while they have the demo Diablo on the floor.
Ricred1 did you get to test each each component at home in your system first? I tested a few amps at home from two other dealers that supported in-home demos, but nothing really stood out and I was at a loss until I met the Diablo and took a gamble. This hobby can be stressful when it’s decision time.... |
You are very lucky to have access to dealers that stock gear you are interested in AND offer in-home demos.
Unfortunately I’m stuck with in-home demos of gear I don’t care about, or in-store demos of gear I do care about!
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Interesting, but before going there I’d want to see some recommendations/comparisons from reliable sources. But I’ll check out his site / CAM anyways, thanks! |
Congrats Bubb! While the current D3 generation B&W's are fantastic, they may not be my first choice for my tastes. But I don't know of any amp they would sound better with than the Diablo 300! So far I've not felt a need for any EQ, I've tried to find equipment that avoids the need for tone controls, and haven't missed them since I was young when I did need it to compensate for poor equipment. Not that I have anything against EQ's. Maybe one will come in handy as my high-frequency sensitivity of my ears inevitably starts to degrade with age!
I listen at different volumes for different contexts - if I'm working at home I'll set it at 15-16, after 10pm I'll even go lower so as not to bug the family, and on weekends typically I'll have it anywhere from 23-26, with 25 being the start of what I consider to be "loud". Never really felt the need to go beyond 26 although I've tried going to 28. Still can't believe how all sonic qualities are maintained even going way, way down to 11 or so - you can still easily pick out the "groove" and impact of the bass and all other details transients and dynamics. Inna if the Diablo 120 is even better at low levels, that would really be incredible. But I think I need the power too with my big room :)
Bubb regarding the display bulbs, do you know they are specc'd to 30,000 hours continuous use?
Is this at 100% brightness? I had previously set my brightness at 75%, but I'm now thinking about lowering to 50% (which is a bit difficult to read across the room)! My last amp had a similar display with individual lights making up the volume readout. On this amp over 20 years I noticed some bulbs were dimmer than others, for volume settings with numbers that were commonly used. Actually I noticed that dimming fairly quickly into the 20 years. But none went out or anything.
Regarding my phono board, good point, but I'm not too worried as I can't see myself selling the Diablo. And I don't think it is worth double the cost I'll need to pay now to get the new one - I got the board at 50% off and it is never actually been connected to a turntable (including in my system as I currently have no turntable). So I can't really justify paying a bunch more for the new board which actually won't provide any material added benefit. Pohanlon thanks for notifying me of the upgrade kit for the phono board - my dealer had not mentioned that! I will ask.
Also for anyone reading this interested in the Gryphon or other uber-integrateds - in retrospect I would to have liked to have tested the Musically Fidelity Nu-Vista 800, which I think is similarly priced. While all the reviews of that amp are very positive, I'd be surprised (or shocked) if it beat the Diablo. But this amp somehow escaped my list of candidates and there is actually a dealer that stocks it near me. There are just a ton of positive reviews for the Nu-Vista 800 amp and the sonic presentation is described similarly to the Diablo, but again, just one that might be good to try but I wouldn't expect to top the Diablo.
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Excellent points Bubb - I’ve definitely had room issues in the past and can see how frequency correction count have helped. At this point I don’t perceive any issues with my current room.
Regarding the amp display lights, I didn’t know you could set the “main” display to turn off after adjusting- thanks for this!
I’d also be interested in how many watts this amp is Class A up to. I’ve only seen speculation, largely due to making assumptions due to the heat. This amp definitely will heat a smaller room but is not as hot as some amps get. Mine doesn’t get too hot to touch and is in a very open area with high ceilings so it is not a problem for me.
Regarding the front plastic panels - I totally agree; I would have preferred this be aluminum. Bubb, not to draw your attention to this, but if you run your phone’s flashlight over the plastic up close, if your unit is anything like mine it will show some imperfections and whirls. Some of it was residue from the adhesive protector which I removed with a mild plastic surface cleaner. I’ve decided to be okay with the whirls based on the knowledge that this is bound to happen over time anyways. My black B&W speakers have the same issue. Even dust sitting on the unit over time will eventually leave little marks in the surface finish, and no matter how you dust it will leave minor marks. Again this is really only apparent if you shine a light directly on the surface and inspect up-close. Having said that, it is definitely a slight knock on Gryphon quality when everything else build-quality wise is COMPLETELY without fault. One note regarding scratches in the future - mild scratches can be easily buffed out with plastic polish. This can be a bit scary to do, and in my experience with my speakers’ finish it will remove minor scratches but leave very mild whirls that can only be seen when you shine a light directly on the surface.
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I would have picked the wood finish for my speakers if I could have. When I bought them, it was just after the D3 generation was launched. I wanted to like the D3 line as they were more detailed in the mids, but no matter what gear I paired them with the overall presentation was too thin for my tastes with not enough bass. So I went for the prior generation (which does not have the same level of detail reproduction), and was stuck with the glossy black as that was all that was left in all of North America at the time! At some point in the future I will upgrade my speakers, but no idea what I’d get. Maybe Sonus, Focal or Magico (which I’d worry may sound too thin like the B&W’s for my tastes).
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Bubb I think your B&W’s are fantastic and the D3 line offers so much more in the way of detail and soundstage. Just not as warm as I like and not enough slam for me in particular. That goes for the 802 as well, so I don’t think it has to do with the size of the driver. B&W designed the sound like this for sure - to offer a highly resolving and focused sound. Many would prefer the D3’s to the D2’s I’m sure. Also, the bass is there and it is very detailed and focused, it is simply restrained and doesn’t offer the presence I am looking for. The D3 speakers are great speakers, and can certainly do a lot more than other speakers can. It is just a matter of taste; by no means am I saying they are not good speakers. I’ll give that Prince song a try, but I’m sure I will hear less on my D2’s than you hear on your D3’s. But, my guess is that the overall presence on mine will be more richly delivered. I’ll let you know what I hear. When driven by the Diablo, I hear WAY more bass on my speakers than i’ve heard with any other amp that I’ve tested, and it is also very well defined and detailed bass. I also find that with poor recordings, even though you can hear the flaws I find that with the Diablo it is far more tolerable than with other amps I’ve tested which can make such recordings harsh or shrill sounding. |
If I were you I'd definitely just try it out, especially if I already had a sub! But I agree in theory it won't help add slam to mid-bass or add warmth.
Krell is known for having a ton of bass, and from what I've read (and observed), Gryphon bass is very strong too. I think I saw someone say they thought it was similar to Krell in terms of bass, but that Gryphon has better / smoother sound over the rest of the spectrum. But I don't think I've seen anything that suggests Mark Levinson has this sort of bass. Maybe it was the listening room at the dealer? Maybe your processor / EQ is having an impact and reducing bass? Also my entire mindset is thrown off when I am listening outside of my own space, so there is the psychological aspect too. If you are using a power conditioner, try plugging directly into the wall. I've heard of situations where bass is lost with the Diablo because conditioners can't provide enough current - with one story I saw where it happened at an audio show and the Diablo underwhelmed until it was plugged directly into the wall. Also I assume you are not using the stock power cable?
Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain" on my system at home is immense and feels like you are hit with a ton of bricks, repeatedly with the beat, when turned up. But I have not tested this track with other equipment so I have no real reference. I'll try your other song by Prince when I get home tonight, at a volume level of 23.
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I don’t have experience with subwoofers but I suspect that adding a high end one may get you the best of both worlds.... |
Listened to “The Chain” again. When you say the kick drum at the start of the track, do you mean before or after the bass kicks in?
Before the bass kicks in I’d say I can just start to “feel” the kick drum in the chest at a volume setting of 27. After the bass kicks in you can easily feel it at 25.
As for the Prince song, it sounds amazing but these sort of highly produced pop tracks don’t really impress me with any system. It is too easy for sound producers to include sonic pyrotechnics with big dynamics and transients when producing electronic pop and/or dance oriented music. My daughter was listening to Billy Eilish “You Should See Me in a Crown” on my system. Wow.... Try that track if you want to make your system put on a fireworks show while fully pressurizing your room to the max with crazy amounts of bass. Again not the sort of track I’d use to test HiFi gear. But, holy crap. And keep in mind my system is in a large open concept area with very high vaulted ceilings... |
Sorry to hear you are disappointed in your system’s bass. Just be careful not to overcompensate on the amp for a deficiency that is in all likelihood with your speakers. Also I’m not sure you are actually supposed to “feel” that kick drum on The Chain... You don’t want to add something that is not supposed to be there. That said, your speakers are known to be light on bass. Whitecamaross, OP of the “long list of amplifiers...” thread mentioned that to me about the 803’s, and he specifically suggested the Diablo to help with the bass. Many others have said the Pass integrated doesn’t compare with the Diablo. But maybe the Levinson would? Maybe the Levinson pairs better with your speakers than the Diablo? Is it possible to try the Levinson at home? Or buy and return? Beyond that, I’d be looking at new speakers. I think that is likely your main problem as no one ever has said anything about the Diablo’s bass presence or slam being anything other than class leading. But, I’d be interested in hearing if you could directly compare the Levinson at home!
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One other thing - I really don’t think you need more power. More power will not give you more bass at the volumes you listen at and with your room size. And, the Diablo is known for supplying massive power especially at lower impedences. It is often said that the Diablo has no problem driving any speakers. |
Maybe you should ask the Levinson dealer if you can bring your Diablo in to the brick room to try with their 803 D3’s?
It’s a bit of work but you would get valuable results you can learn from. If I were in your position I’d start there. Offer to compensate the dealer for their time since you aren’t likely buying something. If the speakers still lack the slam then it must be something to do with the pairing of the Levinson with your speakers. If the slam IS there, then you can be confident the problem is your room. That seems like the most valuable place to start.
The other thing I’d repeat is that I tested the Diablo at my dealer with the 802 D3’s. And THEY were slightly thin sounding to me with the Diablo, so I can imagine how the 803’s would really not do the trick. If I were to look at speakers I’d want to test Focals, Sonus Faber, Magico, based on what is available near me and of interest.
But taking your Diablo into that brick room with a pair of 803 D3’s will get you concrete results and point you in the right direction.
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No worries, this is still about how the Diablo sounds with our respective speakers so it is still valid for the thread I think.
To my ear, my 803 D2’s sound like a totally unrelated to the D3 line. The entire presentation is different. I’ve pretty much said this above, but I just find the overall sound of the D2’s far more satisfying, even if they are far less “capable” than the D3’s in terms of transparency and soundstage.
Before I had the Diablo, I found my bass to be lacking. Of all the amps I tested, only the Bryston 4B3 addressed the lack of bass. But compared with the Diablo’s bass, the Bryston’s bass sounds muddy and bloated with little detail in comparison.
With the Diablo, the bass is great. It actually took me by surprise (in a good way) for the first little while, with the new highly detailed “groove” that was added to the sound of my system.
That said, my speakers are not known for having a whole lot of bass either, so I’m sure other higher end speakers would have even better bass. And keep in mind my room is very large, open concept, and with high vaulted ceilings.
Overall I am still very happy with the sound. I’ll be testing demo cables starting next weekend. Very high end cables, including Nordost Valhalla 2, Nordost Frey, AudioQuest Firebird Zero, and the biwire version with Firebird Bass, and Transparent Reference. These are pretty much all the cables of interest that I have access to try near me. I expect the cables to help improve transparency considering the cables I’m currently using are not that transparent at all.
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Bubb how many hours do you think you have on your speakers? If you are not close to at least 250 hours, you've no idea how much the sound will improve. Mine took about 285 hours before they sounded not terrible, and it happened suddenly when things finally clicked. You need to leave your Diablo on 24/7 for a while, at least at a volume of 14, preferably a bit higher. Component breakin is absolutely a real thing, especially for speakers. If you need a trick to not drive yourself or others nuts with the endless sound: connect the wires out of phase on ONE speaker - red to black and black to red. Then, position your speakers so that the drivers face each other and are a couple of inches apart. Start playing music. The drivers will be utilized but the sound waves will be cancelled out by each other.
Regarding cables - yes they make a big, big difference. Not always a good difference even when spending a lot, depending on the gear. I've tried some speaker cables that I found to really accentuate certain frequencies, and sometimes in a horrible way. I've seen some reviews where the reviewers compare frequency response of different cables. So there is measured proof there is a difference. With speaker cables I've heard MAJOR differences, to the extent that I've heard some cables that can smooth over harsh equipment (at the cost of transparency). With power cables, I've heard more subtle, but still obvious differences. With my upgraded USB cable, I've heard minor improvements (with USB the timing of the USB clock signal between source and destination is better synchronized, ensuring bits are transmitted and received at the correct time - "jitter" is reduced).
While I am certain cables make a big difference, based on comparisons where results can be better or worse, I do think they are grossly overpriced. For people who don't believe in it, take some demos home and try a blind test. If you don't hear obvious differences, you've spent way too much on your hifi system :) Sorry, you have more money to spend...
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