2. analog
  3. 146404-5377

Grace F14 MONO cartridges and styli

Dear all, i have to start this thread because i’ve come across first MONO cartride in my system.

The cartridge is extremely rare Grace F14 (MONO) LC-OFC from the mid 80’s.
I’m a huge fan of the Grace stereo cartridges, in stereo world the F14 LC-OFC is superb, this MM generator is the best ever made along with LEVEL II LC-OFC. As you might know the Grace made so many different styli with different cantilevers and different diamonds for F14 and LEVEL II series in the 80’s.

BUT I know nothing about mono cartridges, because i’ve never used any of them.
And i don’t even have enough MONO records, but i got some for sure.

I don’t play 78rpm SP ... and most of my mono records are 45 rpm (7’inchers) from the 60’s, 70’s, maybe a little bit from the 50’s.

My F14 LC-OFC cartridge has ONLY 2 PINS (not 4 pins like stereo versions). The special lead wire designed for use with mono is included, no problem with that.

Looking at the MONO stylus on my F14 MONO cartridge i realized it is not an SP version described here (definitely not a huge 3 mil. tip), but a nude stylus tip, small just like stereo tip on some other Grace styli that i have in collection. So it’s a good news, because i’m not gonna play 78 rpm anyway.

What i realized by trying this cartridge/stylus on my mono records is a lower compliance of the stylus compared to normal Grace (they are high compliance). The stylus replacement designed for F14 (not for older F9), the plastic shape of the F14 is always different compared to F9.

I’ve searched for MONO styli shapes online and i’ve seen many articles about oldschool conical styli of the different size for the mono records from the different eras. Also about the mono cut on stereo cutterhead.

I could find only one more Grace mono cartridge (LEVEL II) with 1 mil. conical tip described here. 

BUT this post on another forum is the most interesting:

"I play a number of vintage monos (primarily stuff from ’58 to the mid 60’s, admittedly no pre ’57 stuff) here with a modern microridge stylus and would never go back to using a conical on them (having done so in the past). They sound incredibly good with the microridge...

Based on my experience, I feel all the talk of conical styli being necessary to get the best out of mono records is urban legend at best, if not patently false."

If this is true i can use any stylus on my Grace MONO cartridge for my records pressed in the 60s/70s in mono ?

I don’t have a mono switch anywhere on my gear, but since the cartridge pins are designed for MONO only, i believe, i’m safe to cancel vertical noise caused by conventional stylus with vertical compliance ?

I can not detect a stylus shape yet, it can be Conical, Elliptical, Shibata (or maybe even Micro Ridge). I’ve heard they are all good for MONO made with stereo cutter head in the 60’, 70’s or even today.

Let me know what you think, it can be my first mono cartridge then.
128x128chakster

Showing 10 responses by chakster

chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
What i can see in Lyra Etna MONO specs is LineContact stylus: 

"Lyra-designed long-footprint variable-radius line-contact nude diamond (3um x 70um profile, block dimensions 0.08 x 0.12 x 0.5 mm)" 

Here is more about mono cartridges in the article by Art Dudley. Only the cheapest carts have conical tip for mono, most of the high-end mono have at least elliptical or line contact. 

Interesting. All these makes me think that signal generator is more important that the tip ? 

Art Dudley says: " stereo cartridge that's been optimized for mono rather than a mono design from the ground up "  What's the difference? Vertical compliance or something else ? 


chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
@sleepwalker65

The Audio-Technica VM-610 MM mono cartridge has 4 pins like a stereo cartridge, so this one is bridged internally as Lewm said.

What’s the benefit of having just 2 pins on the cartridge body? Does it meant to be a "true mono"? 
chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
@lewm

Does that mean that "vertical signal" is cancelled before it goes anywhere, if a cartridge has ONLY 2 PINS ?

4 lead wires from the conventional headshell are "Y" type for use exclussively with just 2 pins on the MONO cartridge.

I use 2 stereo speakers, of course.

No mono switch on my First Watt and Pass Labs amps (or on the phono stages).

I’m not a mono guy, it’s all about curiosity.

My mono records are not LPs, but a vintage 7’ inch singles on 45 rpm. Most of them have Stereo version of the tune on one side and MONO version of the same tune on the flipside. By Playing MONO side with Stereo cartridge i’ve never noticed an improvement and always prefered the STEREO to MONO. But i’ve never owned a MONO cartridge untill now (Grace F14 LC-OFC MONO)

Cartridges you’re calling "TRUE MONO" are all LOMC, but what about true mono MM cartridges ? What’s makes an MM a "true mono" ? Why Grace MONO can not be a "true mono" ? After all are you aware of any MM with no vertical compliance ? This grace model designed for use with 78rpm only (SP) and the stylus must have no vertical compliance then (or not)? My stylus is different, not for SP, and it does vertical movement, but on a low compliance.

I’m aware of Miyajima, but i think it’s for oldschool MONO records made on MONO cutter before mid ’50s or for very old 78 rpm which i don’t use at all.

My MONO records are 99% 45s made on stereo cutter head (i guess) after mid ’50s (mostly in the ’60s and ’70s).



chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
@lewm Well, the "Y" type is just a simbol, if you will look at that simbol this is exactly how two wires from the shell goes to one pin to attach to the cartridge. I got two "Y" type leadwires, headshell got 4 pins, cartridge got 2 pins, the "Y" type wire in between. They are designed only for mono application.

Everything related to the compliance in case with MM is about the stylus, not about the generator. I don’t have that stylus anyway, my stylus have vertical compliance. But i hope a cartridge generator is a true mono as it has only two pins on it.

MC carts for mono is not a subject of this post, it’s completely different design.

Got some mono LPs, maybe just a few :)
chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
@hdm thanks for the link

I think i will copy paste J.Carr's comment here:

Even if the LP groove is mono, you will get maximum information retrieval if the vertical stylus contact is maximized and the longitudinal stylus contact is minimized. This dictates a line-contact stylus - similar to the requirements for a stereo LP.

But there are two things to watch out for regarding the stylus shape.

One is that many earlier mono LPs have shallow bottoms, and/or the bottoms of the groove are mired in decades of accumulated grime. You can run into problems with tracking and noise if the stylus shape is narrow and pointed enough to allow the very tip to touch the bottom of the groove or the dirt that may be there.

Two is that a line-contact stylus will make the effects of stylus rake angle (SRA) and cantilever rake angle (which I think is a far more descriptive term for cartridges than VTA) more noticeable, and if you have a tonearm that doesn't allow easy height control, you may be better off with a spherical stylus.

Regarding coil structure, it should be real mono rather than strapped stereo. On paper, strapped stereo coils, or using a mono switch on the preamp will get the job done. In the real world the results are audibly better with real mono coils. Canceling whatever vertical noise component that may be present in a mono groove assumes very tight matching of channel output as well as magnetic and capacitive crosstalk - but this assumption doesn't hold up well in the real world. And in general (with amplifiers as well as transducers), not picking up an error component in the first place is preferable to picking it up and trying to cancel it out later.

Regarding vertical compliance, a mono cartridge should have it. Mono LPs are not tougher than stereo LPs, both are made from the same materials, and both will remain in good condition for a lot longer if grooves are not subjected to high pressure - especially if that pressure is concentrated on a narrow area of the groove. If the cartridge suspension has no vertical compliance, the same stylus will require higher tracking forces than if there is vertical compliance.

This also becomes an argument in favor of line-contact styli, since they do the best job of distributing the vertical tracking forces over a wide area of the groove. ... 

hope that this has been informative, jonathan carr

chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
But in a MM cartridge the body is 5% of the cost.

Do you mean the cost for the manufacturer or for a consumer?

In terms of the market price for a consumer I think it's the other way around, the MC body is useless without stylus/cantilever and cost almost nothing, while the MM cartridge body is expensive because we can manually insert the stylus in 3 seconds to return it back to life. So i think it can be easily 30-50% of the total cost, but the stylus is the most expensive part of MM/MI, definitely.  
chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
@lewm what is the correct way of hooking it up then? Each headshell designed for stereo and has 4 pins, Mono cartridge has 2 pins. The "Y" type leadwire is original Grace, and the headshell for this MONO cartridge is also original Grace.

Not every phono stage or an amp have a mono switch. 
chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
This is the "Y" type MONO lead wires, i have almost the same with my Grace F14 MONO
chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
We’re looking at Denon 102 just as a guide? Because i don’t want another mono cartridge.

My Grace F14 Mono has been pre-mounted on dedicated Grace headahell with leadwires already connected (correctly). I’m checking all my new carts with Test Records first (Hi-Fi Test LP) with various high modulation grooves for suspension check (no skip btw), then with Ultrasonic Stylus Cleaning (Cardas Sweep LP) and finally with the music, but in the headphones.

So my Mono 45 rpm 7’inch records from the 70’s are really good with that Grace Mono, no hum detected in my headphones. Loaded at 47k Ohm. Stylus has vertical compliance just like stereo stylus. Stylus size is small just like stereo stylus tip.

Not sure what am i missing?
chakster's avatar
chakster OP
6,144 posts
 
Thought you were asking for guidance in hooking it up and you're already hooked up.
Thanks @hdm , but It was @lewm who said that something wrong, see below

 Chakster, the way you have hooked up your Grace to your stereo system could cause a degradation of performance, because each channel of your stereo phono stage is now seeing the output impedance of the cartridge in parallel with the input impedance of the other channel.  

I was more concerned about MM stylus type and the compliance of the stylus (just like conventional cartridge).  
More to discover