@ lowrider57 I agree with testpilot and lak , send the unit in for repair. As for measuring DC on the mains. You cannot measure DC on the mains by connecting a regular DVM directly across the AC mains at the wall outlet. You would need to connect a low pass filter between the DVM leads and the wall outlet. The Klien tester you bought is not a DVM by the way. I know this is becoming a long thread, but I must mention that the Equi=Core now trips the breaker at the panel when powered on. It trips several times in a row, eventually allowing power-up. This is a 20A dedicated line from a subpanel which I’ve had for years. Stop using the Equi=Core..... Get it repaired. You need to hire an electrician to have the 20 amp breaker in the electrical panel replaced. That is a must!... Repeated tripping and resetting of the breaker has damaged the thermomagnetic trip unit in the breaker. In many cases the breaker just gets weaker, will trip with less of a connected load than the 20 amps it is rated for and or will not be able to handle inrush current that the breaker used to be able to handle before the repeated tripping and resetting of the breaker. Worse case that could, can, happen now if it trips due to a high inrush current or a short circuit event of the Equi=Core unit the 20 amp breaker in the electrical panel will not trip when you try to reset it again and the breaker may explode causing major damage to the electrical panel but may also explode outward through the front of the breaker casing burning your fingers, hand, arm, and possibly your face and eyes. Yes a defective 20 amp breaker could, can, do that........ You should never face,look, at a circuit breaker when resetting a tripped breaker. Always turn your face away from the breaker and electrical panel when pushing the breaker handle back to the ON position. In fact your body should not be in front of the electrical panel. You should be off to the side with your arm and hand extended. Jim . |
lowrider57 OP
I think I should call the electrician to address the breaker situation. The 20A breaker being tripped at every powerup has never happened before this week.
Would he be able to measure DC offset? Good chance the electrician will look at you scratching his head. DC on the AC mains? I have never head of DC on the mains causing a 20 amp branch circuit breaker to trip open. If it where me I would pop the top cover off the unit and have look inside. Use your nose and sniff around inside. Look and smell for something that looks and smells burnt. Especially look around the top support mounting plate for the toroid transformer as well at the bottom of the transformer if it rests against the metal bottom of the unit. Also check where the AC hot wire leaves the power switch to see if there is a DC blocker circuit/device/components between the switch and the primary winding of the toroid transformer. Hard to believe it doesn't have one. I would imagine the transformer is a 2Kva (2000 Va) rated transformer. When you hire an electrician to change out the 20 amp breaker in the sub panel, you might ask him to have a look inside the Equi=Core unit. Jim . |
@Al, (almarg),
Thanks for the kind words.
I find it’s best just to ignore his posts.
Jim
|
CORRECTION: jea483,262 posts
02-25-2020
9:25am
@ lowrider57
Stop using the Equi=Core..... Get it repaired.
You need to hire an electrician to have the 20 amp breaker in the electrical panel replaced. That is a must!... Repeated tripping and resetting of the breaker has damaged the thermomagnetic trip unit in the breaker. So much for proof reading.... Repeated tripping and resetting of the breaker has damaged the thermomagnetic trip unit in the breaker. That should read:
Repeated tripping and resetting of the breaker has damaged the thermal-magnetic trip unit in the breaker. Jim |
lowrider57 OP3,542 posts
02-25-2020
8:45pm
Hi Uber. These problems came out of nowhere. Like the circuit breaker tripping, there’s no way the EquiCore is overloading a 20A circuit. That’s why I think the electrician should have a look first. @lowrider57, I assumed the 20 amp breaker is just a standard type breaker. It’s NOT a GFCI, or an AFCI, or an AFCI/GFCI combination type breaker.... Correct? Overloading a 20A circuit? I guess I should have ask you to be more specific on how quick, fast, after you would reset the breaker and then move the breaker handle to the ON position the breaker tripped. Immediately? Or after a short interval of time? I was thinking immediately when you would move the breaker handle to the ON position. Please clarify.... If the breaker trips immediately that would indicate a very high inrush current or a ground fault or short circuit, condition, event. In either case, event, the current could be well over 100 amps or more. Just a guess by you repeatedly resetting the breaker it temporarily clears the ground fault or short circuit. Can that happen? Yeah, if the fault is not a Bolted Fault. I get the impression you do not leave the Equi Core powered on 24/7. I noticed the unit enclosure looks sealed, there in no air vents to convection cool the power transformer. Have you ever added up all the connected loads plugged into the unit? How hot does the top cover of the unit get? Question. Has the 15 amp circuit breaker on the Equi Core ever tripped? Here is a closeup photo of the inside of the unit. Can’t get any simpler... Just an IEC inlet connector, on/off switch, 15 amp magnetic circuit breaker, power transformer, electrical wiring, and 4 duplex receptacles. At least that’s all I see. Scroll down the page to the photo of the inside of the unit. https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/186921/core-power-technologies-equi-core-1800-reviewLast but not least we have been blaming the Equi Core unit for the cause for tripping the 20 amp breaker in the electrical panel. Did you ever remove the Equi Core unit from the wall outlet and feed your audio equipment directly from the wall outlet the way you used to? I would suggest you try that. That should rule out the problem is caused by the branch circuit wiring or the branch circuit breaker. Of course you don’t know at this point, how weak the breaker is now..... You still should try it.... Jim . |
@lowrider57
Square D QO. Good Choice.
No doubt he carries a Square D QO 120 breaker in his service van. Still wouldn’t hurt to tell him the breaker is a QO 120 breaker. Only a Square D QO breaker will work in the panel.
No need to have the audio equipment hooked up to the Equi Core unit. If he needs a load you can always use pretty much anything with a cord and plug you have in your home for a load.
You might prepare a place on the dining room table for him to look at the Equi Core unit So he doesn’t have to get down on his hands and knees. Make sure he has good lighting. Natural lighting works best.
Also you might mention the transformer has a 60/120V split phase secondary winding. The two outer 120V leads are both ungrounded that connect to the duplex receptacle AC Line, Mains, contacts.
The secondary winding center tap neutral lead is bonded, grounded, to the chassis and to the equipment ground contacts on the duplex receptacle outlets.
(NEC ARTICLE 647 Sensitive Electronic Equipment.)
Jim
|
lowrider57 OP3,544 posts
02-26-2020
4:06pm
To power up the system, I turn on the Equi=Core, then the panel breaker trips immediately. I used to repeat this procedure but the panel tripped every time I turned the EQ on. @lowrider57 That tells me the branch circuit wiring is fine. The 20 amp breaker didn’t trip until you turned on the EQ unit using the ON/OFF switch. It sounds like you have been tripping and resetting the circuit breaker a whole bunch of times. Not just a few times. It sounds like it was the magnetic trip device in the breaker that was tripping the breaker open. I am not sure the magnetic trip device weakens with several repeated very high inrush current and or from a ground fault or short circuit event/s. I do know the overload thermal trip device does though. You weren’t tripping the breaker on overload, imo..... You said the breaker would trip immediately. If the secondary of the transformer was not loaded, (say by at least 50% or more), from a cold start up the primary winding would not draw all that much inrush current. No where near enough current to trip a 20 amp breaker... Just a stab in the dark I would say the transformer is the culprit. I would also guess what ever is going on it has been progressively getting worse. I would not try use it until you have it looked at. As for the 20 amp breaker in the electrical electrical sub panel. Because of all times the breaker has been tripped, and then you trying to close the breaker under a load. At a very high current load I might add. Possibly at a hundred amps or more, the contacts in the breaker have to be really burnt and pitted. Jmho, I think you are darn lucky the contacts did not weld themselves together. Side note: I should mention depending on the breaker manufacture the 20 amp breaker may be a SWD rated breaker. An SWD rated breaker is rated to be used as a switch to turn on and off florescent lighting like you see in a store like Target and Walmart. (Now no doubt LED)... The calculated maximum continuous connected load for a 20 amp circuit breaker is 16 amps. 80% of 20 amps. You were switching a load of maybe 100 amps or more..... Jim |
@lowrider57 For some reason the above post, I originally posted last night, was corrupted after it looked fine after I posted it. The post this morning is the same without the corrupted part as seen at the top sentence of the post last night. I then deleted the post. With that out of the way..... I would like you to preform a test when you get a chance. Plug a vacuum cleaner into the wall outlet of the 20 amp dedicated circuit that has been tripping the breaker. Most walk behind vacuum cleaners have a so called 12 amp motor. That means if the motor is loaded, vacuuming carpet, it will draw 12 amps, or slightly less... That is a good load test for the branch circuit wiring as well as the branch circuit breaker. It should power up fine without tripping the breaker. But,.... there is all them breaker trips and resets.... One thing for sure if the vacuum runs just fine that clears any finger pointing at the branch circuit wiring and breaker causing the problem. You still need to hire an electrician and have him trouble shoot your situation. At the very least have the 20 amp breaker in the sub panel replaced. I kept forgetting to ask, what manufacturer made the sub panel and breaker? Example, Square D? Square D QO? Square D Homeline? The electrician will be more than qualified to look at the Equi=Core unit. You can save some money by having the top cover already removed before he looks at it. You might ask him, when you call him, if he has a Megger? If he does ask him to bring it with him. Megger is a trade name of an insulation tester. Example of: https://www.grainger.com/product/MEGGER-Insulation-Tester-54JH70?ef_id=EAIaIQobChMI_Pu6tfHx5wIVx0XVC...I would also let him know what manufacture made the sub panel. On the inside of the hinged cover it should list the manufacturer as well as the model number. That way he will know for sure he has the 20 amp breaker in his Service Van when he comes to your home. Time is money.... Jim . |
Lowrider57 said: This leads me to the question; can DC offset be measured by the electrician either at the service panel or the wall receptacles? DC on the AC mains can be measured at either location. In your instance you want to measure it at the wall receptacle outlet that you are using for your audio equipment. Question is does the electrician and or electrical contractor you have hired have the test equipment to properly measure for DC voltage on the 120Vac mains. Unless the electrical contractor/electrician has a power quality analyzer meter something like this one then the answer no. https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/power-quality/437-series-ii# A typical good quality digital multimeter (DMM) will not correctly measure for DC on the AC mains unless a low pass filter (lps) is used. The lps is connected between the 120Vac mains and the DMM. The DMM is set to auto DC Mv. I have a FLUKE 87 DMM and it cannot correctly measure for DC on the AC mains. I made a simple lps. Nothing to it. It’s of a lot cheaper than buying a power quality analyzer meter. I don’t know how big the electrical contractor/electrician is that you have hired. I do know a few good sized electrical contractors in my area. They could easily afford to buy a $10,000 power quality analyzer meter. I doubt if any one of them has one setting on a self in the shop just setting there waiting for the next time it will be needed. If they have a customer where they may have a power quality problem in their facility the electrical contractor hires a Power Quality Testing Company. For around $150 to $200 an hour you can hire a Power Quality Testing Company that employs qualified, certified, trained, technicians to preform the power quality testing. The testing company furnishes the electrical contractor a complete certified test report when they are finished. Do you need to hire a Power Quality Testing Company? Probably not. I do find it odd though that the transformer in the Atma-sphere power amp is mechanically vibrating more than it normally should. It’s my understanding Ralph installs a DC blocker in all his amps that use a Toroid power transformer. Quick test. Check/measure the AC line voltage at the duplex receptacle wall outlet with the power amp turned on. You want a conned load for the test.... A higher than normal AC voltage can cause a power transformer to buzz, mechanically vibrate, louder than normal. Normal? Voltage should be around 120V.123Vac is getting on the high side. 124Vac -125Vac and higher is definitely on the high side.... Look on the rear panel on the amp, what is the recommend nominal AC line voltage for the amp? Jim |
Correction:
Low Pass Filter (LPF).
NOT lps.
.
|
.
There’s a water leak in the conduit from my roof down to the meter and the seal into the pan has worn away.
Is the meter socket on the outside of the house? Is the meter socket surface mounted on the outside of the house? OR Is the meter socket recessed into the out wall of the structure? If the house was built back in the 1950s or earlier is the meter socket mounted in the basement? Looking up at the electrical service drop service entrance weather head on the roof. How is the utility company’s triplex cable supported at your house? Eye bolt in the structure? Mast clamp on the steel rigid pipe that drops down to the meter socket? At the point of attachment of the powers company’s triplex cable how far would you guess it is below the weather head where the your service drop wires come out of the weather head? Example,.... Above the weather head? Below 6", 12", 18"? Pictures. https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=7GqgXu_YLML5tAaFkabwBA&q=electrical+weather+head+... Jim |
@lowrider57 Picture. https://www.pinterest.at/pin/160300067962784594/ The picture shows a typical fed overhead electrical service where the meter socket and mast pipe are surface mounted. (Yes I know yours is concealed with a semi- flush mount front meter cover.) What I want you to look at is where the power company’s triplex cable connects to the mast pipe. (May be in your case to an eye bolt).... Note in the picture the triplex is supported by an insulated mast clamp. Notice the mast clamp is below the bottom of the weather head? The point of attachment of the triplex must be below the bottom of the weather where the service conductors exit the weather head. That is a must! Looking at the picture. Next notice the loop, (called a drip loop), in the service wires that exit the weather head that are connected to the triplex. See the drip loop? The drip loop is a must! When it rains the rain water that collects on the three wires runs to the bottom side of the loops and drips down off the wires. If the point of attachment of the triplex is above the weather head that increases that side of the loop and will cause the rain water to run up into the weather head and run down the outside of the wires inside pipe onto the termination lugs of the meter socket. (Water seeks its’ own level) Next go outside and look at your service. Is the triplex attached to the structure above the weather head or below the weather head by around 6" to maybe 12"? Next thing to look at closely...... Look closely how the two 240V insulated wires and the bare neutral neutral conductor of the triplex are spliced, connected, terminated, to the two black insulated conductors and the bare neutral conductor that enter the weather head. First the terminations should be below the weather head. That is must. If not if rain water can enter between the insulation and the stranded wire conductor the insulation jacket will work just like a siphon hose and the rain water will run down the inside of the insulated conductors and run out onto the lugs in the meter socket. If you can, explain what the terminations look like. Example. Inline hi-press sleeve type splice. Maybe like this? https://www.gordonelectricsupply.com/p/Burndy-Es2W2W-4-4-Alcu-Sec-Sleeve/5674716?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq...OR??? Jim . |
CORRECTION: Next thing to look at closely...... Look closely how the two 240V insulated wires and the bare neutral conductor of the triplex are spliced, connected, terminated, to the two black insulated conductors and the bare neutral conductor that enters the weather head. That should read: Next thing to look at closely...... Look closely how the two 240V insulated wires and the bare neutral conductor of the triplex are spliced, connected, terminated, to the two black insulated conductors and the INSULATED neutral conductor that enters the weather head. Sorry about that...... (Insulated neutral conductor will more than likely be black wrapped with white marking tape.) Jim |
There are 3 lines from the pole that run parallel to all the rowhomes; 2 heavy gauge, one thin cable. They are mounted to the rear wall and extend about 15" outward and 12" below the square weatherhead. Wow. Well, it sounds like the utility power lines are below the " square weatherhead". That’s good..... The service drop consists of two black cables and one white. The drop is U-shaped but the black cables enter the side of the weatherhead and terminate inside. They are horizontal at the point of entry. "The drop is U-shaped but the black cables enter the side of the weatherhead and terminate inside." weatherhead? Sounds more like a junction box. How big is the box? Just a guesstimate. The drop is U-shaped but the black cables enter the side of the weatherhead and terminate inside. They are horizontal at the point of entry. I have no idea what you have.... No Idea.... Has to be really old though. What stops the rain from blowing in through the side of the box where power wires enter? I assume the box is surface mounted? Is there a conduit that drops out of the bottom of the box? The white cable hookup looks like your diagram and enters the bottom of the box. 240V Lines enter through the side of the box, and the white neutral wire enters from the bottom of the box. Correct? Is the box made of steel? . |
@lowrider57 Pictures are worth a thousand words...... Especially this one..... https://ibb.co/qpQnYf5
Your service entrance drop is a cable. It is not a conduit with wire installed in it as I imagined. It appears to me rain water is entering between the outer sheath of the service cable and the weather proof strain relief connector on the top of the meter socket. My guess is the rubber bushing, (or possibly, depending on the age of the connector, Oakum Packing Material), that is supposed to seal the service cable and the metal connector from allowing water from entering the meter socket is shot, deteriorated, allowing water to enter. A band aid that may stop/help from rain water from entering the connector, therein the top of the surface mounted meter socket is to apply a good quality pure silicone caulking around the service cable and the weather proof strain relief connector. Clean the cable with a dampened dish soap and water washcloth at least a couple of inches above the top of the connector and the entire top of the screw down cap/nut of the connector. Remove any loose debris that may be laying between the cable and the inside of the connector. Rinse off the soap with a slightly water dampened clean washcloth. Repeat as necessary to remove all dirt and soap. Repeat process if needed to get all surfaces clean. Allow to completely dry several hours. Surface areas must be 100% dry. Apply the pure silicone caulk around the cable where it enters the connector throat, opening. Make sure you force, inject, as much silicone into the top of the connector between the cable and the connector as possible. Finish off forming the silicone product using your finger. You want the silicone caulk to cover the top nut of the connector so the water will shed down the side of the connector. Next using your finger slightly form, taper, the silicone caulk up all around the cable. Do not leave any globed pockets for water to puddle. You want the finish product to look like cone. (To stop the silicone from sticking to your finger, as you form it, slightly moisten the tip of your finger with water as you form the silicon.) Jim. |
https://ibb.co/qpQnYf5 Looking at the picture again it looks like the back of the connector may be buried slightly in the outer stucco cement finish. Hard to really tell from looking at the picture. If you want to get a good water tight seal you may have to chisel away some of the stucco to expose the back of the cable and the back side of the connector. Use a small chisel and a small hammer... Take your time.... BE CAREFUL! Do not damage the outer sheath of the service cable. Jim. |
@lowrider57
If it were me I would have the electrical service replaced. It looks like it is well overdue.
How about the electrical panel? How old is it?
How about the branch circuit wiring?
Is it time to do a rewire?
Jim. |
I plan on having the entire outside cable run plus meter lid replaced. The cable from meter to service panel was inspected and is ok. The cable from meter to service panel was inspected and is ok. @lowrider57 Inspected by who? The city AHJ? In my city. Any time a new electrical service is installed an electrical permit must be pulled by a licensed electrical contractor that is licensed to do electrical work in the city. Minimum overhead fed electrical service required for a single family dwelling unit is 100 amp. Is the cable/wire rated for a service entrance rating of 100 amps? In my area, before the Utility Power Co will hook up the new electrical service the City AHJ must release the new service for a hook up. What all was the electrical contractor/electrician that gave you a price of $2000.00 going do? Was he going to re use the old cable from the new meter socket to the existing electrical panel? Jim |
uberwaltz11,178 posts
05-04-2020
7:18pm
Am I missing something here?
Surely all of this should be on the electric company provider to make good and safe?
Here if I was even to look at anything on the incoming side of my main panel JEA would likely have me hung, drawn and quartered! @uberwaltz It depends where you live who owns what and who is responsible for what. In lowrider57 case he owns, is responsible for, the service drop, meter socket, and service entrance wiring from the meter socket to his electrical service panel. He is also responsible for the system grounding as well, (grounding electrode system). cleeds2,926 posts
04-22-2020
9:47am
lowrider57 ... the corrosion in my meter box is causing distortion in the mains. That’s potentially hazardous. Your electric utility should install a new meter and/or meter pan, as needed.
Does anybody know if a toroidal transformer can be damaged due to longterm hum from harmonic distortion? That seems unlikely.
lowrider57 OP3,684 posts
04-22-2020
10:26am
Seems unlikely?
Thank you @cleeds .
That’s potentially hazardous. Your electric utility should install a new meter and/or meter pan, as needed.
I know. Unfortunately, the homeowner is responsible for the maintenance of the meter pan and meter drop onto the property.
There’s a water leak in the conduit from my roof down to the meter and the seal into the pan has worn away. The estimate from an electrical contractor is $2000 and money is tight right now. I need to get some more estimates. |
New service drop.
New meter socket.
New service entrance conduit and wire from meter socket to a new electrical panel.
(Including breakers).
System grounding up date as needed.
Electrical permit.
$1900..... That’s a good price.
Jim
|
@ lowrider57
Glad to hear the new electrical service solved your hum problem.
As for the service entrance cable the electrical contractor installed.
Yes, it meets NEC, Article 338 of the code. And it is obviously approved for use by the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) in your area. The AHJ has the final say.
In the Capital City, metro, and surrounding suburbs cities in my State conduit is required for the electrical service. I’m not sure if any counties or cities in my state allows service entrance cable use for an electrical service. Though I do not know that for a fact.
Jim
|
lowrider57 The instructions state that a 2-pole 20 amp breaker is required. OK, fine.
Now here’s what I don’t understand; if the surge protector has its own breaker wired to hot, neutral, ground on both phases, how is it going to absorb a spike before other circuits? The SPD protects the whole electrical panel from high voltage transient surges/spikes. The Square D SPD uses multiple MOVs to protect the panel from high voltage surges/spikes transients. During a high voltage transient surge/spike event the MOVs limits the high voltage and absorbs or diverts the high current to ground. That is why the electrical service entrance neutral conductor connection to earth is so important. (The Grounding Electrode System.) The lower the grounding electrode resistance to earth soil the better. (Grounding electrode? Ground rod/s, metal main incoming water service piping, foundation footing concrete encased rebar.) IEEE recommends 5 ohms or less. It is very important where the electrician mounts, installs, the SPD to the outside of the electrical panel enclosure. (Do not install the SPD inside the panel.) Make sure he installs the 2 pole breaker for the SPD wire connections in the first two spaces below, near, the panel’s main breaker. Doesn’t mater which side just so it is in breaker spaces 1, 3 or 2, 4. The electrician more than likely will have to relocate a circuit/s load breaker/s to make room for the SPD 2 pole breaker. I would relocate the lighter load circuit/s breaker/s. The SPD connection wires must be kept short as possible without any sharp bends in the wires. Square D HEPD50/HEPD80 SPD user guide and installation NOTE:To enhance the performance of the HEPD50/HEPD80, twist and keep the conductor length as short as possible by trimming down the wires (do not loop or coil the wires and avoid sharp bends). Always connect the HEPD to the circuit breaker(s) found in the closest proximity. Increasing the HEPD conductor length will degrade its performance. https://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_enDocType=User+guide&p_File_Name=NVE82551.pdf&am... See page 4 and page 6, figure #3. Why is keeping wires short so important? Here is a great video on the why. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wb79cXmSlc I attended a seminar a couple of years ago and seen the demonstration first hand. Inches do matter. Going from memory don’t you also have a sub panel for your audio equipment? If yes you should install an SPD on that panel as well. For added protection of your audio equipment a Type 3 SPD should be installed to plug your audio equipment into. Make sure it has a minimum 1449 3rd edition listing. Newer Type 3 SPDs may have a 1449 4th edition listing. (Read the specs wording carefully. Minimum 1449 3rd edition listed). Jim. |
