Environmental Potentials whole house surge protection, can I get your opinions?
gdnrbob
, Here is an excellent white paper on SPDs for you to read. http://www.p3-inc.com/images/surge_protection_device_systems.pdf Here is another one on the importance of earth grounding. http://www.p3-inc.com/images/grounding_for_pq_wp2016_p3.pdf . |
gdnrbob, Here is a pretty good one. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Whole-House-Surge-Protector-CHSPT2ULTRA-1/204761136 Are you planning on installing it yourself or hiring an electrician to install it? . |
gdnrbob, You won’t find any SPD that will protect your home from a direct lightning strike. If you find a manufacture that claims it will you best read the fine print. Like westom said in his post the earth connection is the most important part for protecting your home from a nearby lightning strike. Again, read this PDF. Lightning is lightning and the earth is the earth whether it is at a commercial office building, industrial facility, or you home. Same principals apply. http://www.p3-inc.com/images/grounding_for_pq_wp2016_p3.pdf As for the Siemens SPD I do not have any opinion one way or the other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dj33YVppDk If it says it will protect from a direct lightning strike thought, it will not... It may not even protect your electronics in your home from a nearby lightning strike. The only 100% sure way to protect your audio and video equipment during a lightning storm is to unplug it from the wall receptacle. Same goes for any coax cable connection from a cable TV provider or a satellite dish. Same goes for an Ethernet cable connection from a router that is connected to the outside world by cable or a phone line. I found this Website while doing a search. The guy does a pretty good job and shows some spec comparisons of different manufactures SPDs. https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2014/10/whats-the-best-whole-house-surge-protection/ Here is a great video to watch. I attended a power quality surge protection seminar a couple of years ago and seen the demonstration first hand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wb79cXmSlc The thing that I visually remember most is the SPD should be installed as close as possible to the load side of the electrical service panel main breaker. The first two breaker spots on ether side of the panel is where the 2 pole breaker for the SPD Line 1 & 2 to connect. (IF there are breakers in the two spots, needed for the SPD’s 2 pole breaker, have the electrician move them elsewhere in the panel. It will take him 5 to 10 minutes tops!) Mount the SPD as close as possible to the outside of the panel enclosure where the 2 pole breaker is installed. The wire leads from the SPD should be kept short. IF The SPD is installed inside the electrical panel, hidden from view, how will you be able to see the indicating lights on the unit telling you the device is still good and working properly? SPDs that use MOVs do not last for ever. That’s why the good SPD devices have multiple MOVs for each surge function of the device. You should always check the SPD after any lightning storm in your area. Any sub panel after the main electrical service main panel also needs an SPD installed. Again the SPD should be installed as close as possible to the feeder conductors, wires, feeding the sub panel. The first two breaker spots for the SPD’s 2 pole breaker installation. MAKE SURE you have the electrician check the main grounding system (Grounding Electrode System) for your home’s electrical service. Clean, if needed, and tighten all connections. No such thing as over kill here. And as westom said, a single point earth connection is a must. All earth connections should connect to a single point to the electrical service entrance neutral conductor. . |
cleeds, My references are for type 2 SPDs Example: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Whole-House-Surge-Protector-CHSPT2ULTRA-1/204761136 http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/d9/d9817dee-4558-4b87-877e-946eee1c6f80.pdf |
The only thing that would totally protect a home from a direct lightning strike would be to totally enclose it inside of an earth grounded Faraday Cage. Though that could prove to be quite expensive..... Or maybe hang a really big sign on the outside of the house where the electrical service and earth connection earth grounding electrode is located. Wordage something like, "Lightning Strike Here Only" with a big arrow pointing at the electrical service. Even then I doubt the best grounding electrode to earth soil resistance of 1 ohm could save all the electronics inside the house. Of course there is no guarantee lightning is intelligent and can read the sign or would even care what the sign says. What if the lightning decided to hit that power roof vent unit on the roof instead of the electrical service? Or maybe just the branch circuit wiring that is running all over the place in the attic space on top of the ceiling joists? http://stormhighway.com/what_happens_when_lightning_strikes_a_house.php If there is real world testing documentation, conducted by a recognized 3rd party testing laboratory, that proves a whole house SPD in conjunction with an average to good low resistance earth soil to grounding electrode of, say, 5 ohms or less, then please produce the documentation/white paper. |
westom said:Really? Where did you hear that about electricians? And I don’t mean residential wireman. Not meant to demean a residential wireman but they do not have the training or the on job experience that a journeyman (Class A Licensed) electrician has that works in the commercial and or industrial electrical industry. // westom said: A fuse does not directly protect human life. That is not its’ intended purpose. As for NEC its’ purpose is to provide overcurrent protection, short circuit protection, as well as ground fault circuit protection for branch circuit wiring, feeders, ungrounded hot busing of panelboards, switch gear, as well as disconnect switches. There are others...They also are used in protecting power transformers from being overloaded while providing short circuit protection as well as short circuit ground fault protection. They also provide short circuit protection for larger than small fractional HP motors. See NEC Article 430 as well as Article 440. A fuse will not protect a person from electrical shock or electrocution. I have known of electricians that were electrocuted and the power was still live when they found them dead. Some were still connected to the live power. Fuses could care less what the connected load is as long as it does not exceed it’s ampere rating for a duration that will melt the internal fuse link breaking the circuit. Fuses found in electronic equipment, if sized properly, can protect the equipment from severe damage. First hand example. A few years ago a 6550 power tube shorted in my ARC power amp. The shorted tube caused an overload in the HV, high voltage, DC power supply which caused the HV secondary winding of the power transformer to overload which caused the primary winding of the transformer to overload which exceeded the ampere rating of the AC line fuse, protecting the primary and secondary winding of the transformer, causing the fuse to blow open. Imagine what could have happened if the fuse was bypassed.... No other damage was caused to anything else inside the amp. The line fuse did what it was designed to do. It did indeed protect the equipment. . |
cleeds, From your Link, Type 1 Surge Protective Devices are typically mounted on the line side of the main service entrance (between the utility pole and where your electricity enters your service panel). They protect against external surges caused by lightning or utility capacitor bank switching.That is not proof that the SPD will protect the electronics used in equipment or appliances found inside the house from a direct lightning hit to the electrical service of the house, or, if it hits some other part of the house first. A direct lightning strike/stroke to the electrical service of a house IS NOT considered an "electrical surge" is it? What is the average voltage and current a direct lightning strike/stoke could deliver to the electrical meter socket/meter/SPD mounted on the outside of a house? The power of lightning.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKNgqPQIwnU . |
cleeds, Proof. From the Leviton Link, you provided in an earlier post. http://levitoncompanyinc.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=37748&minisite=10251 Click on the tab for "Whole House Warranty" Quote: What is a "Power Surge"? "including those caused by indirect lightning" . |
gdnrbob said:When was the last time the electrical service was upgraded? Approximate year? Yes the ground, Grounding Electrode to soil resistivity can be tested. Some commercial/industrial electrical contractors have the proper equipment to preform such a test. It is not uncommon though for an electrical contractor to hire a company that deals in Power Quality to preform the test. The Power Quality Company will preform the test and then supply the Electrical Contractor the test data results. IEEE, just going from memory, recommends 5 ohms or less. 2 ohms or less is preferred.... If the Grounding Electrode to soil resistivity is greater than 5 ohms the Power Quality Company will make recommendations to the electrical contractor how to get a 5 ohm or less soil to grounding electrode resistance reading. It’s usually accomplished just by driving a new ground rod deeper into the earth. Where you live in the US has a lot to do with soil resistivity. Just the changing of the 4 seasons can have an impact on the electrical service grounding electrode to earth soil resistance. What part of the country do live in? http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/ I would first hire an electrical contractor/electrician to check what you have now to see if it meets the bare minimum NEC code as well as the local governing body (AHJ) for the minimum required electrical service grounding system, (Grounding Electrode System) for an electrical service in your area. In some areas the standards may be set by the Utility Power Company in conjunction with the AHJ, (Authority Having Jurisdiction). Worth noting, NEC says if the grounding electrode to earth resistance is greater than 25 ohms an additional earth driven ground rod shall be installed. That’s it, NEC is satisfied. No further testing is required... I have yet to hear of a residential electrical contractor that checks for earth resistance. To meet NEC code all they have to do is drive a supplemental ground rod. Testing for soil resistivity. http://www.esgroundingsolutions.com/what-is-soil-resistivity-testing/ Two different types of test equipment/methods. http://www.fluke.com/fluke/iden/solutions/earthground/soil-resistivity-method https://www.atecorp.com/products/aemc/3731 . |
westom said: First you need to start with what is the intention of the National Electrical Code. 2014 NEC "and property". Then you need to move onto 250.4 (A)(1) Electrical System Grounding. IEEE https://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/NECArticle250Sections250.1-250.4~20020123.htm Earth grounding for the protection of electronic equipment, Micro processors, Data Processing Centers, Others? What about the electrical equipment and appliances found in the home? What doesn’t have a Micro Processor in it today, or at least electronics? Again, the IEEE Green/Emerald book recommends a ground resistance of 5 ohms or less. I believe so does the NFPA. . |
westom 22 posts 12-27-2016 12:48pmI have yet to hear of a residential electrical contractor that checks for earth resistance. First my comment is part of the total response I gave to the question gdnrbob asked in a post. Quote gdnrbob said:Does gdnrbob’s 100 year old house have a Concrete Encased Electrode (Ufer ground)? No..... So what does gdnrbob possibly have for a Grounding Electrode System? First it would help to know when, the year, the electrical service was last updated. IF the house has a steel or copper domestic water line that is, at least 10ft in length, buried horizontally in the earth, that is a grounding electrode as per NEC. IF that is the case there is a very high probability it is supplemented by at least one 8ft ground rod. IF the water line is plastic then more than likely he has two 8ft ground rods, minimum, making up his grounding electrode system for the electrical service. The above would satisfy older NEC bare minimum requirements. As always the AHJ has the final say. westom said:Are you saying there is not a recognized, accepted, electrical industry standard for testing soil resistivity? I thought ANSI/IEEE recognized the testing equipment when used as directed by the manufacture, of the test equipment. Yes, the equipment test, to be credible, must be preformed by a qualified person trained on its’ use. weston said:Games? Which is cheaper for the Residential Electrical Contractor? Pay a certified Power Quality company to test the electrode soil resistance and produce a certified test report for the electrical inspector, and possibly the Utility Power Company’s inspector, or just drive an additional 5/8" X 8ft ground rod? // In the 1968 NEC edition the "Concrete Encased Electrode" (Ufer ground) was first written into the code. AHJs (Authority Having Jurisdiction) could have made it mandatory if they wanted to. Maybe some did. In NEC 2005 the language, wording, was changed making it mandatory for new construction. Of course that doesn’t mean all States and or local AHJs adopted the 2005 NEC change. My State did but not my city’s AHJ. Just going from memory I think the AHJ adopted the mandatory change around the year of 2009. Probably was when the AHJ adopted the NEC 2008 code in January of 2009,(In part with deletions and amendments). I don’t remember for sure..... I do know in 2007 it was not mandatory in my city. . |
westom, What is the purpose of the National Electrical Code? The purpose of the National Electrical Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.Not your opinion or your interpretation of what you think it means. What does the sentence actually say? |
westom, LOL, You just ramble on and on saying the same things over and over. As for my posts on this thread I believe I answered all the OP’s questions and concerns accurately. Starting with SPDs and the importance of the integrity of the electrical service’s grounding electrode system/earth connection. I would ask you to go back to the start of this thread and read my posts, but I know it would be a waste of time. It is obvious you have a problem understanding what you read. Your understanding of NEC leaves a lot to the imagination. I know you won’t, but you should at least take the time and read Article 90 of the NEC. It might help you better understand the rest of the book. Pay close attention to the highlighted last sentence of 90.1 (A) This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons. Then read 90.1(B) (B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessary efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.Then read the Informational Note just below (B). . Through out this thread I said the NEC was bare minimum! I repeatedly spoke of the importance of the electrical service grounding electrode system/earth connection. I used IEEE recommendations, not NEC, for the minimum 5 ohm or less grounding electrode to earth resistance. I even said 2 ohms or less was better yet. . |
