End Game Turntable suggestions


Hello all, looking for insights to help me narrow down to some core choices; I am open to new or preowned. My system details can be seen under my profile.

In summary I have significantly expanded my vinyl collection and as of now I am looking to purchase an end game turntable appropriate for my setup. As you can see I use Mola Mola Kaluga Monos, and I really like the Zesto Pre and Phonostages. I find the class D/tube pre combination very pleasing. 

I would appreciate suggestions for around $5-8K (table + arm), new or used. I will have separate budget for cartridge. One preferred option (but not must-have) is universal voltage, as I may move the unit to Europe later. My current vintage turntable (Project Perspective) is 22 years old, and while I don't know how to compare to something really amazing, I can say that my setup is lacking detail and bass. The tonearm is terrible to keep aligned. Based on visits to Axpona and Cap Audio Fest and other research, I am thinking of a few in my budget, but will really value your suggestions of other brands:

- Origin Live Sovereign

- VPI Signature

- SAM Sinner

- Thorens TD 1601 (semi automatic)

Visual appeal is important to me (which is why Technics 1200 is not on my list despite great reviews everywhere). I love the idea of set it and forget it DD tables, but unfortunately mostly out of my budget (eg VPI HW-40 going for abt 11K used)....

Sorry for the long post but my hope is this background and help solicit good suggestions. Thanks

 

musicmatters1206

Showing 4 responses by mijostyn

The job of a turntable is to spin at the proper speed, prevent any spurious vibration from getting to the tonearm and sound like NOTHING. Anything it adds to "the sound" is distortion.

The job of the tonearm is to hold the cartridge solidly in the proper orientation, move to two directions only and absorb any energy coming from the cartridge to prevent it from reflecting. It should also not have a "sound."

The job of the cartridge is to translate the physical waveform on the record into an electrical waveform. It also should not have a "sound."

It is the record that "sounds." A record playing machine should not add or subtract anything to the sound that is on the record. The design of turntables, tonearms and cartridges should be evaluated with this in mind. A record player is a vibration measuring device. The cartridge has no way of knowing where the vibration is coming from. It will turn any vibration into an electrical signal. The environment is loaded with vibrational energy and the turntable has to isolate the other parts of the system from all of it. Mass will not do it. If a turntable does not have a proper isolation suspension then it should be placed on one. It is much cheaper if one is built into the turntable. The Dohmann Helix is probably the epitome of a suspended turntable. The classic is the AR XA followed by the Thorens TD 125 and the Linn LP12. SOTA was the first to hang a turntable from springs instead of sitting it on top of springs, a much more stable design. Basis, SME and Avid followed suit.  The RP 10 is a lot of turntable for the money. It is suspended on squishy rubber feet. It has a very stiff chassis and a great tonearm. Up from that price wise is the Sota Sapphire with a Kuzma 4 Point 9 then up the Sota line to the Cosmos. At this point we are already above the OP's budget but continuing onwards are the Avid Acutus and the SMEs. Next is Basis then the Dohmann Helix. Both Sota and Basis tables can be had with vacuum clamping. When a tonearm tracks over warps the groove velocity changes and causes pitch to waver which is painfully obvious and far exceeds the minimal wow and flutter most modern turntables have. Vacuum clamping is the best at flattening the record. Reflex clamping Like the SMEs, the Acutus, non vacuum Sotas and the Helix is second best. A record weight does little to nothing. Ring clamps are a PITA to use and an accident waiting to happen. Of the turntables I mentioned above only the Sotas use a magnetic thrust bearing which is an advantage in terms of noise and durability. It does exactly the same thing as Techdas's air bearing at a fraction of the complexity and cost. 

 

 

@pindac, it is another lesson that mass alone does not work. Certain materials are more prone to ringing, some are intrinsically better damped. Examples of the later are aluminum and most wood over a certain thickness. Panzerholtz is resin infused plywood. The layers have been dyed for aesthetic reasons. It makes great plinths and could even be used as a sub chassis in a suspended design. My turntable used a 1" thick aluminum sub chassis. I doubt it would sound any different if it were made out of panzerholtz.

Origin designs are fine. Unfortunately, the company has a reputation for bad service. It has come up on this site several times. 

@musicmatters1206 , No, it will not be fun. You will wind up listening to the one you like best and the other will just take up space and money. Put that money into a better turntable and cartridge The very best value in a less expensive table is the Thorens TD1600 followed by the RP10 and then on to the Sotas. If you want the ability to upgrade down the line Sota is an even better choice. The only time you need a second cartridge is to play 78's.  As often as you would play them swapping out the cartridge would be the most efficient way of going about it.

Manufacturing turntables and tonearms is not all that difficult. I have seen several very reasonable home spun units. Making them with intelligent design and aerospace precision is not so easy. This leads to an unfortunate number of enterprises that make rather poor gear. Any company that makes a unipivot arm is suspect. Some, like Clearaudio and Kuzma do it at the low end of their ranges to keep the price down. Some do it because it is child's play to make them. Graham and Basis arms are no longer unipivots they are bipivots. Outboard motors are another point of contention. Turntables with more than one platter are functionally a joke.  More bearings equal more noise. 

I think the Thorens or the Rega with the best cartridge you can afford is the way to go. Saving $2400 on the Thorens adds that much to the cartridge kitty. If you can get into something like the Ortofon Windfeld Ti or the Lyra Kleos you would be living high off the hog. 

As for your dream Turntable the suspended Motus or SME are handily better than the others. The Sota Cosmos Vacuum outperforms all of them. It has a magnetic thrust bearing, a state of the art drive system, a proper suspension, vacuum clamping and a really great dust cover that can and should be used during play. If you want fancy looking the Basis Inspiration is the way to go. It will cost you three times as much as the Sota for very similar performance. David Fletcher and AJ Conte were big friends. They were both engineers who loved audio. 

@musicmatters1206 , It all depends on the design of the turntable. Forget about price. There are many super expensive tables that are not designed as well as the Thorens  or the RP10 for that matter. It is really not that expensive to make a decent turntable or tonearm. Once these meet a certain level of performance it is all about the cartridge. Over the past year I have studied many cartridges under high magnification. It became obvious that the more expensive cartridges have better styluses and are constructed more carefully. I have absolutely no doubt that you are better off putting the money in the cartridge. The Ortofon Windfeld Ti or the Lyra Kleos will handily outperform a Hana whatever in either turntable.