I read through the whole article. Complete waste of time. (Not you, Nonoise. I'm faulting the article itself). You read all that and then you get to the last sentence which sums it up.
"Of course, there many audio enthusiasts and professionals dispute these contentions, but we know of no scientific evidence that supports their views."
Of course not. Its just another silly paper that's put together by people that for some reason or another, just don't like high end audio. There's dozens of papers just like this one that's made using no fresh research of their own. The references they site are old, not very relevant, and are chosen to steer the reader in the direction the author wants. If you read through the paper, there's a clear bias to come up with the conclusion that they did, and its no surprise that the results are what they are. Can someone point out if any issue the author of this article presented, took any part in doing any type of research or tests themselves? I can't. It reads like one of those term papers in high school, that you had a whole year to complete, and you were sitting there copying from the encyclopedia the night before it was due. And, yes, I admit that I've done it myself, so no one needs to call me out on it. I was a screw up in High School. To my credit, though, I cleaned up my act once I got into college. I paid to have an honor student to write my papers, just like the rest of you. |
The real problem concerning hi rez is really a matter of attitude, and probably poor marketing. In the article that was referenced, the tone was negative, and the author pulled info to back up the answer he was looking for. There's a missing, fundamental, element with people that write these pieces. They're not looking to get to the truth of the matter, they look to argue a case. If it were me, or someone else here, looking for answers, we would go after them. The real focus would be the truth, and we would do everything we could to come up with the right answer, and not the answer that we want because we just know better. So if you take a step back and look at the problem defined as getting the right answers, I think you'll see that it becomes very obvious that so much more needs to be done before any judgement is of any kind is passed. |
Noble100,
You just made my point better than I ever could. Why test anything when we already know better? I won't waste my day typing, but I can at least put 1 hole in all your theories.
"The truth is that vinyl records, reel-to-reel tapes and redbook cds can all sound very good but none of these formats are hi-resolution formats."
With regards to vinyl and reel to reel analog tapes, you can't put a level of resolution on them in any meaningful way, like you may be able to do with digital. Why? Because analog resolution will vary depending on the equipment used in the recording and the playback process. Not only that, there is no reliable way to measure the resolution of an analog source and equate it to any to a similar resolution in digital. So in the end, you guys are just guessing. You talk science and objectivity, but don't use a shred of it yourselves. And that makes you completely subjective. The funny part is that you don't even realize it. I mean, if you were trying to be objective and back your ideas up with good factual information, would you really want to use this as a source to build an argument on?
"There was a recent N.Y. Times article that claimed his self-recruited test subjects could not tell the difference between redbook cds and hi-res recordings of the same music. Little wonder since they were comparing identical things."
A recent NY Times article? Do you really think they're qualified to conduct such a test? You can do whatever you want, but if I was trying to make your point, I would be embarrassed to reference a source like that. And then expect someone to take me seriously. |
"02-11-15: Audioengr
Chrsh - Most consumers don't spend enough money on their equipment to hear the difference. They spend more on their cell-phones. They all claim that they have tin-ears too...
Steve N.
Empirical Audio"
I think the industry itself is to blame for that. Look at the difference in other segments of digital entertainment. Everyone seems to understand why you would buy a dvd over a vhs and a blu ray over a dvd, or a Playstation 3 to replace a 2. Same thing with computers, bigger processors, better graphics, and even cell phones and tablets. When CD was the standard, the industry chose to push MP-3's over something like SACD. It's the only segment that sold features and convenience over the actual quality of the product. And now the price is being paid for it. No one even buys iPods any more because they can just put the music on their cell phone. I know several people that buy CD's new, rip them to MP-3's and then throw the CD in the trash. The whole situation is a textbook example as to why you never devalue your own brands or products. So, as much as I would like high rez audio to succeed, I see no reason at all why the average consumer would stop downloading all their music for free. |
"02-11-15: B_limo
ouch, my head hurts.
I really cant tell much difference with hi rez files. I suppose it is system and recording dependant. Another thing to take into account is if the slight difference is worth the pita of finding all your favorite music in hi rez"
Its really no different than any other element in the chain that you would try to evaluate. When you go out and listen to something like a new CD player or TT, there's usually some planning involved. We make sure the dealer has everything set up properly, we bring music that we are familiar with, do some prior research, etc... People seem to avoid doing that type of stuff with high rez digital formats. I remember when SACD came out. Everyone went out and bought a cheap Sony player and a few SACD's to test it with (myself included). How well did it compare to my Wadia 861? Not very well. The Wadia was better in practically every way. Given my experience in audio, it didn't take me long to figure out that it was silly for me to expect good results the way I went about trying SACD. Unfortunately, not everyone made the connection. Most just walked away with the opinion that its not something they want to get involved with. I don't blame them. It was a smart choice for them not to buy anything if they didn't hear a difference.
The only thing that I think may save High rez audio, are downloads. I doubt very much that the industry will ever sell any type of new format on something like a disc that you buy in a store. Too much damage has already been done. With downloads, high rez music can be made available with little, to no, outlay of money from the record companies. They can offer the downloads and if people buy them, its found money. The cost is so low, there really is no downside. |
"Are you saying that common audio measurements (such as frequency response, signal to noise ratios, dynamic range, etc.) mysteriously cannot be measured for vinyl but can be exactly measured on digital formats? This would be very troubling but convenient for anyone wishing to avoid objectively comparing the two formats. Fortunately,however, your statement is not factual."
No. I said resolution. With digital, you can label something 16/44 or 24/96 or whatever. You can't do that with analog. And even if you could, it would probably be too impractical to use in the real world. Analog resolution varies with equipment choice.
"The reason I referred to this article was to demonstrate the reporter's total lack of understanding of the importance of a recording's provenance. No, I don't think he was qualified to conduct such a test, precisely because he didn't realize he was asking his subjects to choose which recording sounded best when both recordings were identical. Because of this, the results of his test are meaningless."
If that's what you meant, then I obviously misread your comments and take back what I said.
"My main point is that the major labels are using standard resolution older masters of their recordings, transferring them into hi-res formats, increasing the prices and marketing these as hi-res without disclosing the provenance of these recordings. Doing this adds no improvements in sound quality but may garner large revenues from uninformed consumers. I'd prefer these potential buyers to be well informed. I'm fairly sure the major labels would prefer otherwise."
Maybe you could explain this because I'm not sure how you are coming up with it? When you say that they take standard resolution recordings and transfer them to high rez formats, what are we the resolutions in question? I'm not sure that I know what standard resolution is, in the context of your comment. |
"The only limiting factor with digital audio resolution occurs if an analog multi-track reel-to-reel tape recording is used as the master, rather than recording the performance directly to digital via PCM. This distinction, between transferred from an analog master and recorded direct to digital, is at the center of the provenance issue."
That's not necessarily true. You're assuming that the digital recorder is of a higher resolution than the analog recorder. While its possible that may be the case, it could just as easily not be.
"I wonder if anyone has recorded direct to digital via 16 bit/44.1khz PCM for a cd, bypassing the analog master tape? If so, I would think this has the potential to sound very good, too."
I'm sure its been done by someone, but in most cases, music is recorded in a higher resolution digital format, and then downsampled to CD quality.
I don't know if you'll agree with me on any of this, but maybe just this 1 thing. It would be nice if the industry would get together and set some standards as to what it considered standard, high and low resolutions. |
"04-01-15: Escritorjuan
Quote: "I paid to have an honor student to write my papers, just like the rest of you."
I never paid anyone to write my papers in college.
And, as far as the differences, I've noticed some between DSD and CD.
Escritorjuan (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Read the post again and try to put the quote you reference in context to what I was talking about. |
"04-02-15: Geoffkait
Actually, as I understand it cassette tape has higher resolution than Redbook CD. That would probably help explain my preference, but also the sheer musicality, you know, things like sweetness, warmth and air."
There's really no reason why you can't be right on that. I think many people forget that resolution isn't fixed with analogue formats, like they are with digital. You buy a better cassette player and you can increase the resolution without changing the format. Digital products don't work like that. |
"2. the psycho-acoustic phenomenon that causes us to perceive slightly louder playback as being "better".
Swampwalker (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Once you figure out what's going on, it doesn't work anymore. |
