Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Dear @noble100 and friends: I’m always concerned on something that’s happening and where there is no single information.

It’s weird that not only in information coming from the sites you linked and from the JBL information all those gentlemans speaks about even bass response but no one of them " touch " nothing in reference at distortions levels not only THD or IMD but any kind of distortion.

That’s why I always try to think " out of the box " and asking me for " something "...

Speaking of " OTB " I just made it another fasinating move and here it’s a totally new discovery for the better:

as many of you and through the years I was testing different power line fuses at the electronic inputs in all my electronic system items where I found out that better quality fuses just means better quality performance in this regards the best I found out are the ones coming from Synergistic Research: Quantum Red and Black.

What did I?, now that I have my dedicated power line " bullet proof " fully regulated, with surge protection, RF/EMI filters I thought:
What if I by-pass all those fuses ( 14 in my system. ) due that I don’t need any more because the whole system is protected in that fuse task regards?

Well I did it and was and is jus " genial ": quality system sound performance level improved so: The Best Fuse Is Not Fuse At All ! ! !

What a discovery ! just great one.

All that improved system noise floor, bass range, room " disappears " that I achieved with my last discoveries posted in this tread only improved again when I was thinking that nothing could help to improve it. Fortunatelly I was wrong with this last sentence.

Rigth now there are no fuses in: my subwoofers, amplifiers, CD player, TT power supply and phonolinepreamp and the digital an analog performance is better than ever with an unbeatable high resolution where we can aware of the digital/analog source errors and advantages of each alternative in between. Btw, analog just hands down digital alternative.

I think that all of you that have a precise proved regulated/surge protection power line have to test it and I’m sure you will enhance your system enjoying listening sessions.

Regards and enjoy de MUSIC not distortions,
R.

Dear @noble100 : I think that that information does not exist for a specific room/system.

In the old JBL papers the main subject is a room evn bass: no problems by standing waves, almost flat bass frequency range and the like but never gave any THD information and this for me is a critical issue.

Room does not disappears only because bass management is rigth but only is the bass and overall syatem distortion in the room is really low.

That's why I ask about.

It's really " curious " that when we talk about manufacturers of subwoofers for home stereo systems no one gives the THD of their models and I know this because I call/email almost all of them and no one return with that information.

Velodyne 15/18 has only 0.5% THD at 20hz at 120db. This sole figure is just IMPRESSIVE by any standard.

By comparison the touted JL Audio subs that never gaves that THD figure were reviewed by ST and Atkinson gaves it at 6%. Yes, it's a very good looking unit but nothing that can not even the Velodyne but is far away from it. Sorry for the owners that have that very high distortion levels in the main home system audio bass range.
Now, what happens with JLA is not only them almost all subs in the market but Velodyne has problems there.

THD, between other things, is one spec critical when we are buying subs.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 :  I was trying to find out information of what tipycal level of THD has a bass/subwoofers configuration as the one you have but it does not exist something about.

Do you have that information or a link with?

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 :  """  You achieved accuracy, neutrality and a low noise floor via component selection and your regulators.  I achieved this mainly through a change from a class A/B amp to a pair of class D mono-blocks.  I believe my mono-blocks have built in regulators that conditions the electricity prior to introduction into the amp's input stage. """

well, my ML monoblocks are fully regulated input to output and I can hear the improvement of my today regulated electrical lines. So, you could try/test it.


"""  You have achieved good low bass in your system by fine tuning the positioning of your 2 Velodyne subs over a period of years and I achieved it through the use of the 4 sub Audio Kinesis distributed bass array system following their progressive setup procedure.  

     The important thing is that, through slightly different means, we've both achieved good  bass response in our rooms. """


When I bougth my Velodynesmy target was to have a thigt er and more precise low bass end with lower overhang than my main speakers but over the time and even that I have it my personal finding in those times was that existed not an additional benefit in the system subs integration but a main benefits even more important than the low bass stand alone subject and that main benefit/target was and is explained in that link that I post here again. This is for me my real discovery because in those times I was unaware of the JBL or Geedes multiple subs white papers/options and certainly not what you posted here and are using at your place:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058 


Years latter I have a dialogue/discussion with Mr. Geedes in other forum from where I was banned ( people are not prepared for me. ).
Well, I shared that link experiences but he did not cares about, he only talks on for what him was the main target: low bass.

I think that to have a reall good  system bass managemnt through subs is an " additional " benefit to what I'm talking about.

Obviously that today things changed for the better till not only that noise floor or accuracy but the must important issue for me is that when BASS System MANAGEMENT is rigth then there is no need of almost any room treatment because ROOM DISAPPEARS ! ! !  and this is the AMAZING and new experience for every one ( like you. ) that experiment/try with.

As you can see almost no one of the regulars in this forum posted in the last weeks in this thread and this fact speaks for it self.

I can remember audiophiles excuses to not try the subs experiences, everyt kind of excuses and I remember very clear this one with Avalon speakers ( I remember this same kind of excuse with other audiophiles and diferent speakers. ):

" I don't want to use the high pass crossover my Avalons in a frequency range where its shines. """, but something like this was the same with a Magico owner that has problems with these speakers. people just don't want to grow up and prefers stay in his " confort chair ". Even my cvlose friend Guillermo who owns top Soundlabs gave me similar answer years ago but here today are using a pair of subs with that great Soundlabs he owns!.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: First time I used KK 4TC/8TC cooper braided speaker cable for electrical line power cables in my electronics and especially with amplifiers I use it in shot gun configuration, this is that each single 8TC cable for the positive and other complete 8TC for N.

This is very important issue and is how I'm wiring with pure SILVER today all the system electrical line power cables everywhere.

Yes, it's a little expensive but IMHO nothing can wive us so outstanding rewards as this system tweack along the line regulators.

SILVER is the name of the game in this particular audio subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: STOP THE PRESS and read before:

all my audio system links including the speakers/subwoofers ( even the speaker's crossover inductors. ) are wired or rewired internally with silver wire but my Phonolinepreamp because has no single internal wire through its design, the system interconnect cables are from silver too.

Well, two days ago that I opened one of my elctrical line regulators/conditioners I have to change two short internal wires/cables ( 15cm. ) and the only ones at hand were KCAG silver by Kimber Kable.

After that I just seated to listen MUSIC and " something " happened that has no explanation and that was totally unexpected because the cable I changed was a necessity more than to achieve a real improvement but it happens ! ! ! ! 

Then and due that I still have some KCAG cables I use it instead my after market power cords in my Phonolinepreamp and fenomenal THINGS followed happening ! ! ! ! 

Was so outstanding that I already ordered more KCAG to change all my system power cables.

The improvements were to many that can resume in two main ones and what these two represnet on the overall quality performance level in any audio system:

- NOISE FLOOR REDUCTION and

_  LESS ROOM INTERACTION with higher system electronic/speaker headroom levels.

Astonishing, is it?  ! ! !


Lesson: we need SILVER wires in the electrical power system cables.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 : """  1. The importance of a low noise floor not only in presenting music recordings accurately, with more easily heard details and enjoyably but also because it enables the affects of small changes .... to be more clearly heard due to this increased accuracy, neutrality and audible details.  ""

I don't know other audiophiles but me when read something about audio room/system noise floor never had the true significant meaning like this time like these " today " unique experiences.

It's obvious that all those twecks we did and do it with our each one system has as a target to improve its quality level performance and even if we do not took or take its importance every time we improve ( in any way. ) the quality level of the room/system what we did it was and is lowering distortion levels that improve /lower the room/system NOISE FLOOR but this time is the very first time I'm really aware of this system/room characteristic and its crucial/critical importance to enjoy at maximum the listen recording experiences.
For me the improved diferences were " an order of magnitud ": outstanding!

That is a real no-return path/road and a must to achieve in any audio room/system.

Perhaps, many of us think we already have it but perhaps as me we don't have it.



"""  2. The importance of good bass response in not only extending the frequency response lower for a more realistic experience but also because of the affect that good bass response has on improving a system's mid-range/treble performance .... """


as I posted the bass range is the foundation of MUSIC and to enjoy in our audio room/system we need first that that audio system be a full range one, not from 28-30hz and up but true full range ( even a little lower than 20 hz. ). With out that " full range " characteristics we just can't listen adequatly the MUSIC/LP/CD overall experience. This is a necessity not something that we could wish and it does not matters what kind or price level has the audio system: if it does not has the " full range " factor then it be short of and the MUSIC experiences are totally incomplete for say the least.

As you said the importance of good bass response, (I can add: good FULL bass response, is not precisely for extended bass frequency only but for the midrange/treble really shines too. I explain it in this thread here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058  

yes LIGTHS ON, we left the darkness! We must try it and please forgeret about that: " I have no space/land/room " for two subwoofers because this is only one way to say: " I don't do it  because I don't think is an improvement in my already good quality level performance I have " .
That kind of way of thinking only makes we are loosing the real MUSIC meaning enjoy.

I can tell you and all audiophiles that no single tweack kind of changes we can do in our room/system can gives us the full rewards as the rigth bass management achievement along that lower NOISE FLOOR.


Btw, was so impressive what the electrical line regulators did it in my audio room/system that I tested through my bedroom 4K TV with outstanding  results too. It's like instead of 4K resolution the TV pictures/images been " 16K ( that does not exist. ). Of course I already bougth a 1K regulator that's the one rigth now I'm using with.

Regards and enioy the music,
R.

Dear friends: I already connected my main monoblok amps to each one electrical power regulators I bougth.

I decided to buy it after I discovery the huge ( no words to explain it. ) improvement inj the quality level performance of my Velodyne’s.
I had several doubts that really could be a real improvement and not only a diferent kind of sound because my 20.6s are fully regulated input to output.

So why external electrical power regulators for?, I have no precise explanation why I bougth it even the amps kind of design other that " curiosity " and after connected and gave a deep listening I would like to know what is happening. Let me explain it for you can give an opinion or share similar experiences:


for years my amps were connected directly from the inside electrical power amp input through my 30A electrical dedicated line power box, no single connector in between. When I did it the improvement was inmediatly, connectors even here and even top ones degrade the quality system level performance. Why?, I don’t know for sure.

Before the amps wre connected to the electrical line regulators I made it some usually ( for me. ) tweaks: changed its stock power cable by passing all connectors all from inside input to the line power box.

What happened when I switch-on the system and started to listen through my personal test evaluation process?:

something unexpected for me and it happened and still does just from the very first MUSIC " note " in the LP tracks and CD ones:

first thing I was aware is that my system already very low noise gone not even lower but now exist NO noise floor level. I just can’t detect it.

That " simple " fact makes several things in my MUSIC everyday listening sessions. When you hear my today system performance, believe or not, you can think you are enjoying MUSIC in " wonderland ". Like me you can’t believe it till you can have this kind of unique experiences.

It’s not only that no-noise floor characteristic but if with the experiences I shared here with my subwoofers the ROOM interaction goes down at this moment/time that same ROOM just gone. I can’t explain it in other way.

I’m feel like a Symphonic Director’s Orchestra at his stage position whre exist only HE and the near field sources/instruments ! ! ! !

That sesation can be understand it only if you been listening in a true Music Hall at that position that as I posted somewhere in this forum I been there twice.

In that listening position there is no ROOM/venue but direct MUSIC and t’s almost here where the recording microphones are seated.

That’s why I said : listen to the recording and not your ROOM that’s what you are doing rigth now in the same way I did it.

Room treatments?, the best room is NO ROOM.

I think I already posted here: for me the audio/MUSIC hobby just begin with and I’m discovering so many things that I really can’t assimilated and I can’t be sure about explanations yet.

One thing is sure: I have to re-set the whole tonearm/cartridge set up that I was thinking was fine when was wrong ! !, go figure.
This time the word ACCURACY have a true and real meaning on that subject and this time more than ever the MINT LP protractor has its real necessity.
Now there is no " land " where any minimum mistake can hide it and not only in the whole system performance but today I’m aware of recording errors and the already analog limitations goes higher too or at least more real than ever and my many years touted digital alternative shows its several advantages at a higher levels.

How can be that my so hard work on system set up been plain wrong for so many years?
I think because the ignorance levels we have that impede to grow up and stay sticky with what we thougth is " great " when in reality is not that way.

WHAT A KIND OF AUDIO LESSONS and I’m fortunate to discovery all those and many things to come trhough my listening times.

Yes, I only want to listen MUSIC as never before and we will see what I can share over time.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 : Sorry, my english is to bad but as you said I think you have the whole " idea ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @lewm : You brougth here a serious, for its importance, bass management subject and this is the way subwoofers are designed or loading cabinet: ported/reflex/transmision line, sealed-acoustic suspension, isobarik and other that escape to my mind.
Where you decided to go with transmision line loading your subs in the Beveridge room.

The best experiences I had and have are with sealed units: isobarik Linn ( the Sara model in between. ) design, my ADS acoustic suspension/sealed and Velodyne subs.

The Linn Isobarik that I heard was really really good ( very low distortions. ) in the bass frequency range even with not to big speaker cabinets/box.
I remember heard the IMF and TDL transmision line speaker designs and like it a lot but that " laberynth/tunneling design at the end is open, yes it has lower distortion than a reflex or other vented designs and as the Isobarik with not big cabinets/boxes where my ADS to achieve its bass quality and efficiency needs a big box and very special design to go low on distortion levels.

I don’t doubt that your subs performs good but I’m sure it can’t performs better than the true bass expertes design on Velodyne and not only because I own it or because are sealed but because I made ( as I posted in this thread ) a deep investigation over the subs market and no one can compete ( even today ) with Velodyne. Remember that I’m talking here about quality bass reproduction and not bass quantity of the same.

Yes, there are more expensive units or best looking ones or that goes lower than Velodyne like JL , Rel ( only to name two of many out there. ) and others but no one can " live " not even near the Velodyne when we are talking of DIDTORTION LEVELS.

I put an example: while the JL subs performs with over 6% of THD at 20hz at 110 dbs on SPL Velodynes performs at only 0.5% ! ! thank’s that the unit is monitoring the woofer excursion over 16k times each second.

I know for sure that after my Velodynes be connected through those electrical regulators that DISTORTION LEVELS goes even lower and this is the main subject here: QUALITY LEVEL.


Btw, last nigth I really pushed my Velodynes through recordings that are not specific because its bass range stand alone but because use synthetizers between other instruments including full symphonic orchestras.
What I want to achieve is if at some SPL I can have in my listening room or outside it some kind of rattle in diferent things that are in that living room.

So, I push it at very high SPL that I measured at my seat position as : 105 db with peaks over 112 dbs ( even I " closed " my ears at this volume. ) and no single rattle, glass resonances or rare vibations or that something collapsed not even the soundstage and focus. !!!!

That is unbeliable for any one ( nas I said: distortions gone really lower ! ! !. ) but me that experienced it and this tell me that I’m in a new audio era/century/reborn.

@lewm till you can achieve that experience in your system you can’t know how much you ( everyone. ) are losting of MUSIC as I did it for more than 40+ audio years mand that audio losted years was thanks to that AHEE.




Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100 : For what I read from you we owns very different systems with different targets, mine is only to enjoy MUSIC and " mainly through the analog alternative that with so many troubles, limitations and disadvantages ( very well know ones. ) made it for me a huge almost titanic constant system " figth " trying to achieve the best quality level performance.
I’m not a bass’s lover but for years I learned and knew its main and critical importance to achieve that target and you know what?: I was and am not wrong in this main audio subject.

As I said I took along a complete year to achieve the precise integration of my Velodynes to my room/system with out room treatment or equalization about.

I know that with your bass array alternative i took to you 5 hours, good. I can’t discuss if your bass management room/sytem handling is better than mine for stereo MUSIC reproduction.

If you look to my virtual system, my subs position is way unorthodox for say the least: are  in front of my great ADS speakers viewing in between with the driver looking each to other Velodyne.

Btw, I have the room to have that four bass array units but before I can think on that maybe I will try what I learned from that JBL scientific studies that 3 subs are better than 2 and 4 units the " ideal " one.

I really appreciated your first time valuable contribution in this thread that try to cover perhaps the more unknowed audio main subject ever. Unknowed not only by we mere " mortal " audiophiles but for proffesional reviewer, manufacturers, designers and audio retailers/distributors.

Ignorance level is the name of the game in this case.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @noble100  : The corrupted AHEE where like it or not all audiophiles are inside teached us stay away of subwoofers in a home stereo audio system.

The audiophiles were educated in that way and even today several of them are sticky to that information.

Not only that but the name JBL was a forbidden one by that same corrupted AHEE.

Well several years ago was precisely at JBL where took one of those scientific studies on the precise convenience to install multiple subwoofers in " domestic " enviroments and its full non-refutable advantages.
These people not only make the mathematics modeling of that subs subject but they tested LIVE at its unique audio research installations/facilities.

As a part of that AHEE I never thougth or passed for my mind to install subwoofers in my home system, so I just let it gone till my " curiosity " ( many years ago too. ) to think and test " out of the box " made it that I bougth two Sweden active Audio Pro 10" subwoofers that because my very high ignorance level on the subs subject did not worked in the rigth way.

Anyway, latter on I insisted on the subject and installed my today active subwoofers that I took around one year for been totally room/system integrated with out room treatment or equalization of any kind.
In the mean time and before I sold those two Audio Pro I connected it along the Velodynes and again because my high ignorance levels the Audio Pro gone but I remember that in one of my several tests I put the Audio Pro at both sides of my seat position ( very near. ) and I could not detected its reproduction sound but was functioning onn.

Time latter and through my Velodyne's adventure I learned that the myth that over 30-40hz the bass has directionality comes down totally falls that myth because even  at 80-90 hz you can't detect it if exist good system integration.

For years in this and other threads, even in my latest posts here, I touted that the more critical an important home system frequency range is the bass one that with out a true high quality performance in that range what we are hearing is the system room with a really " poor " quality level performance even on system in the 300K prices.

I just can remember an Agoner that a few weeks ago I send him an email trying to help in some ways for his system truly shines: he owns  a very high price beautiful system with Magico speakers I think the 3 or 5 model and what I email to him was the integration of two subwoofers in his system.
I think that because that very high price on his system and because the ignorance level we all have because that corrupted AHEE he never gave me any single answer not even: thank's but NO.

That's why we audiophiles just do not grow up even that we think we are growing up ! ! !


I notice in the past your today subs kind of set up and yes I know exactly what yoi mean and enjoy and what those gentlemans really know on the overall subject. Thank's to share with all of us here.

If you note no one else but @stringreen  and you posted and I wondering if each one of aall those Agoner's ignorance levels on the bass management subject is so high that has nothing to share, comment or ask ! ! !
Always posted and post here that every single day is a learning one for me that always am open to all audio experiences from other gentlemans.

Now and ccoming back with that " thunderous " kind of sound in home audio systems:

I already said thet all comes from very high distortions that only happens in home audio systems. Let me explain my take here:

maybe some peole other than me already experienced the " fall " of a live thunder at near field from us. What can we remember about other that the very high SPL of the sound ( " fundamental " notes " ) ?: NO SINGLE VIBRATION/DISTORTIONS.

What if in the same example/experience we are at 200 m.?:

thatwe feel those vibrations/distortions/resonances all over our body. From where are coming in this example?:

it came from the enviroment that's " exited " by those fundamental/harmonic notes and that were " builded " through the " distance ".

Here the " distance " is our each one ROOM and it does not matters how we make the room treatment or equalization never really disappears and can't disappears because the bass range system ( not room. ) reproduction has " poor " quality levels.
This " poor " quality levels comes from each and all single link in the system chain. 

 Obviously than in the analog alternative is way " poor " than in the digital one and it does not matters what you think in this digital subject.

All analog lovers ( like me ) always try to have the best front end with distortions at minimum, our main concern belongs " there " and we don't take with the same " passion " the other links and especially electronics ones.

Why I mentioned electronics? because all the information is " processed " down there and we need at least that those electronics ( Phono line preamp, phono stage, line preamp or amps. ) where designed to performs from 1 hz to over 200 khz and with almost negible distortion/noise levels and that that frequency range be really flat. This must be not only our targets but the target of electronics manufacturers. Yes, additional must be a very good design and with high quality design excecution.

We can think that any kind of electronics can do it but not really. Of course thatalmost any item can have those characteristics with huge deviations on the freqency range.

Which are the precise and rigth electronic alternative we all have on " hand " to use it any time we want it?:

ONLY ONE alternative: SOLID SATE DESIGNS.

For the bass range be reproduced in precise way we need SS electronics, tube alternative is for anything you want but to handle the bass range that is where is the home system foundation.
No, hybrid designs does not meet the targets because it can't do it, is a limitation of the tube technology.

We have to remember here that what we want is not to hear/listen/enjoy the ROOM but the recording.
@lewm , you can't do nothing about and don't be angry with me again for that tube subject.

I can prove to any one what I posted here even to electronics tube designers that I respect for they shared their knowledge level on their designs. Please don't forgeret that I used for many years tube electronics and I'm not against tubes but in favor of MUSIC and what's in the recording.

There is a MoFi old recording name it: The Power and Majesty that it's in my personal evaluation tests/tracks process and is really a bass management and its meaning on almost all I posted here and this recording can tell you if our system is performing with high or poor quality level: if you know what to looking for.

Same with the several CDs tracks I use in my evaluation home  systems process: to know what to look for. 


Btw, already arrived my two 2.8 kwatts regulators. I'm with some " doubts " if it will works because my amps are fully regulated. I will connect it in my system after take a look inside the units and if I can make some tweaks down there.


Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: There are at least to things to share with you that I forgot:

- many people that own active subwoofers in their stereo audio systems speak on that thunderous bass that they don't have it before the subs in their systems and some of them speak to about that the room or diferent home items  in the room " shake/rattle " with their subs. Some like to talk about.

Well, I have not that shake/rattle or thunderous sound/reproduction in my system any more.
That kind of " events " are caused by high distortions in that frequency range but does not comes in the recordings and if some are experienced that they have an audio reproduction problem and certainly very low quality level on what are listening, it does not matters if they all are satisfied.

- the other issue I forgot is that inside my whole tests process exist the digital/CD tests that with out it any analog tests process is totally incomplete.

Testing bass range nothing can compare with the digital alternative that when with good recordings is way superior to analog and not only this but if we want to know how bass range must sound we must to listen to CDs and learn about.
I have several digital tracks that I always use trhough that whole tests evaluation's process and not only for the bass range but in this precise bass subject two of the recordings I use are: The thin red line and Gladiator ( I own " hundreds " of excellent CD that can show me what I'm looking for. ) that I know really good and what I can tell you is that the pristine, crystaline and precise definition and extremely high resolution is just: ASTONISHING.

The good " news " is that not only in the bass range but in the overall frequency ranges ! ! ! !


Thunderous bass does not comes in the recordings, it's generated on purpose by. In a home system comes for very high distortions in more than one system link and for the room interactions with.

Thunderous bass exist only in the nature through: sound on the Niagara falls or a thunder.

My take is that if we don't improve the quality level of each one bass range system/room reproduction it does not matters what we can do in the other frequency ranges our quality system levels will stay in average status.

I think all of us must have to take care more deeply on that system/room bass range reproduction !!!!

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear @stringreen : According scientific studies four subs are optimal in a home audio system.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

A mistake: not 2.8 watts but 2.8 Kwatts regulators.

R.

Dear friends: First thing I can tell is that that old " warning " against line regulators with amps ( at least in my case ) is totally untrue, there is no single power limitations I can detect about.

I did it my usual whole tests wide/deep process with outstanding results.

Througth that process between other test LP tracks exist two extremely demanding bass range recordings: Telar 1812 and the RR Dafos. Both demanding not only for the speakers system or amps but everywhere from the cartridge to the room where is the audio system.

I really pushed my system with the track: Gates of Dafo's and obviously with the cannon shots in the Telarc 1812 looking for any single sign of power limitations, clipping or quality degradation at very high SPLs: 98 db at seat position with peaks over 107 dbs. It never " collapsed " in any way, everything in focus with extreme detail and resolution.

So, in my case that " warning " is a myth. Rigth now I'm waiting for other two 2.8 watts regulators to connect my monoblocks there. I have to say that I don't know what could happen when test it because my amps are fully regulated input to output. We will see.

Now and returning to the new Velodyne experiences, what am I listening through?:

- first and listening at my normal SPL this SPL " goes down ", in reality does not gone down but this is exactly what my ears and body " feels ". I know that SPL did not gone lower because I measured.

- for my " whole body " can again to feel the same SPLs than before I need to increment around 3 dbs the attenuator/volume in the Phonolinepreamp. However and after the time I just return to the past attenuator position, I don't need to do nothing about but stay there.

- in the whole bass range disappears its false bloom reproduction, false bass power feelings that is not in the recordings, notes has a never experienced clarity/resolution that today I can say are more " transparent " and with an outstanding separation in between. Yes, I'm discovering each single of my LPs ( and I say that not as the normal " cliché " some audiophiles or reviewers tell us. It's literally. ), it does not matters which one or kind of music.

- when I was feeling that I losted that " bass power "/bloom and the like what I did it was to increment the volume in the Velodynes and even that at the begining I thougth was rigth latter on I decided that was not and that I don't need to adjust the subwoofers volume but to stay as in the past.

- all those clarity, transparency and very high resolution in the bass range frequency mmade and makes that the other frequency extreme really shines as never before and yes discovering " new sounds " in the very well know recordings I have and that ow I know I really did not know so well as I imagine.

- now that both frequency extremes are THERE the mid range is too better than ever and this fact ( at least for me. ) confirm what I  was and am telling from many years now: that music at home does not belongs at the midrange frequency range but at both frequency extreme ranges that are the music frame in home reproduction.

As better both frequency extremes as better not only the mid range quality level but the overall listening experiences. Mid range depends on those frequency ranges where these frequency ranges does not depends on the mid-range.

- one part of the 1812 whole track is when we can listen the Carrillon that with its multiple bells diferent tones/harmonics and all at the same time is just imposible to identify each single of that Carrillon sounds.
Well, that was till now because I'm hearing from the very first time the real glorious of that Carrillon sounds that I never did it in any single audio system I experienced trhough my audio life ! ! !, incredible experience for say the least.



Even that some people make jokes or laugh of me ( some of you that are reading this post. ) I touted and tout, posted and post ( elsewhere ) for several years that quality level differences between different home audio systems belongs to each audio system/room DISTORTIONS LEVELS  and nothing more.

In the last times my quest was and is to make any system single change with the main target to achieve lower distortion levels and this time  ( fortunatelly. ) that " move " was and is rith on: LOWERING DISTORTION LEVELS and this fact means MORE MUSIC enjoyment.

Rigth now with that simple " move " I'm listening less to the system room/venue and more into the RECORDING. Additional what is happening/listening ( till today ) confirm not only the other changes I di it in my system in other years but what I posted in diferent audio subjects here and in other forums.

Btw, other " myth " that falls ( for me. ) is that theory that odd harmonics are so irritating to our ears and this is ( for me ) totally untrue because third or fifth bass range harmonics are pleaseant ones like the second ones and today more clear than ever and MUSIC is " harmonics ". Problem, as always, are those system distortion levels.


Yes, all pasive systems needs a pair of active subwoofers wired in true stereo fashion.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear friends: When we are for sure that there is nothing more to learn in any specific audio subject then suddenly we discover something else to improve the quality MUSIC/sound reproduction of our room-audio system.

I untouched my two Velodynes for years but looking for something else in my place I found out |an electrical line power regulator that I bougth so many years that I can't remember when. This same item has filters to reduce line noise and RFI/EM too, I think noise is reduced by 80-100 db.

I learned through the AHEE that it's not convenient to use that kind of power line " conditioners " with amplifiers and as a fact I never did it, I try it but in those times I can't detect improvements when in use.

Maybe I'm the only audiophile that did not do it what I explain next:

Well, I  connected both subwoofers to that device and I was totally unprepared for the HUGE and OUTSTANDING improvement in every single part of the frequency range of my whole audio system and I can tell you with all my humble " body " that the quality level I have is really excellent .

Believe me, I have no words to express it in the rigth way because for me is a totally NEW EXPERIENCE! ! !  after 40+ years to love MUSIC/sound reproduction at home.

I'm still trying to assimilate the overall improvements and I will posts on that.

In the mean time your experiences you already had are welcomed.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Dgob: Nice to read that you are really satisfied too.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Jim: Other factor that could help to that Legacy speakers is to separate the subs from the main box.
Anyway it looks like a very good speaker.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Hi Doug: Do you think you need subwoofers? what is your opinion about?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: I love you man ! and that's why ( I take my time for this. ) I give you next some high-lights that different people ( including me ) posted on this thread on the subject ( two subwoofers/IMD/HD ):

this one was an answer to what you posted:

Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " if the main speakers can support a certain low frequency,before rolling off,it will be best to bring in the sub at just under this point. " +++++

Well this is one approach that mainly goes to have a lower bass response: it is the REL approach and other subwoofer manufacturers but not all of them.

My approach is different from yours, mine goes to obtain ( first place ) a better quality performance in my main speakers and in second place to achieve a better quality bass performance that could goes lower too.
I use two subwoofers in true stereo way to achieve those targets, the first one ( that you can't achieve with your approach. ) is obtained lowering the Intermodulation Distortion ( main speakers ), this means to stop to ask to the woofers ( main speakers ) the simultaneous reproduction of frequencies between 20Hz and 200HZ or higher( if yours goes flat to 30Hz then you still have some distorted response at 20Hz that makes higher the IMD subject/problem ), this means ( again ) that we have to choose a crossover frequency higher than what the main woofers are handled : in my case 60 Hz and in Eldartford 80Hz.
In this manner the main woofers will be free/less stressed of the low bass reproduction working from 60Hz-80Hz up and lowering ( cleaning in deep ) the IMD: this fact makes a huge improvement ( in any speaker including yours ) in the quality sound reproduction of the main speakers ( it is not matters what you think about or what I think about, lowering the IMD always improves the quality performance of " that " driver, physics laws. ).
The second advantage on this approach is that now the low bass frequency response not only goes down through the subwoofers but with a better quality bass performance due that those bass frequencies will be reproduced for " drivers /amplifiers " that were designed specific for those kind of bass frequencies. " +++++

+++++ " Where the subs can help us ? :

Intermodulation Distortions ( harmonic distortions ): Almost any three ways speaker ( all two ways/one way ) has it's crossover frecuency ( low driver ) between 150Hz and 450Hz. I can assume that any of ours speakers system goes down flat ( at least ) between 60Hz to 20Hz.

What does that means ?, well that a single driver has to reproduce frecuencies/harmonics from 20Hz/60Hz to 150Hz/450Hz. With that kind of frecuency range here exist a great intermodulation distortions that put it's " color " on the sound reproduction.

You have to imagine that that single woofer/driver has to reproduce, at the same " time ", a 30Hz frecuency along a 350Hz frecuency: here is where exist that IM that gives heavy distortions in what we hear ( there is no perfect driver: moving coil, electrostatic, ribbon, etc.. The speaker designers has to choose the best " trade offs ", but the distortions are there. ): less clarity, less resolution, less precision, less natural balance, less pitch, les, less, less......., and this is what we are really hearing: LESS MUSIC.

What happen when that low driver is free from those frecuencies ? ( main speakers: monitors or full range, it does not matters. My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz and I have benefits with the subwoofers integration to my system ), below 60Hz ( this is the crossover frecuency that we find the best point to start to blend a subwoofer. Mines are at around this 60Hz frecuency: 78Hz,yours ( I think ) will be around that frecuency. ):

SUDDENLY the " lights are on ", your music/audio " life " its born: the mid bass is clean, the midrange is clean, the highs are clean: high resolution every where ( the distortions are almost gone ), and now you can really hear for the first time the MUSIC through your home stereo audio system: what a pleasure!!!!!. " +++++

Mark the second subwoofer is not to obtain more bass but to even and smooth the room bass response:

08-02-05: Skushino
After adding a second sub to my system, there was smoother bass response. Again, this isn't about louder or stronger bass, in fact, I was seeking lower, smoother bass. Ironic that the path to this goal was accomplished by adding a sub! My girlfriend is a great listener and concurred that bass was better quality. Since I returned the second sub (on loan from my neighbor), I miss the performance " +++++

this quote comes from a in deep research made by Harman International Group:

+++++ " Using very large numbers of subwoofers would result in
cancellation of room modes. For practical numbers of
subwoofers, there appears to be no obvious correlation.

Two subwoofers, at opposing
wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the
midpoints and gives a much better LF factor

Can a sufficiently large number of
subwoofers cancel out all room
modes?
Theoretically yes

With 5000 subwoofers, modal variation is virtually
eliminated. !!!! " +++++

+++++ " I don't know at which frecuency you are cutting your REL. But, for example, if the crossover is at 27-30Hz and if the low pass filter is of second to fourth order then your REL is reproducing frecuencies as high like 80-100Hz that are interfering with the same frecuency range of your main speakers " +++++

this quote comes from a friend ( Agon ) that send to me for this thread. The research/investigation or whatever were made by: Audio Perfectionist Journal and Vandersteen:

+++++ " Suppose I told you that you could add two
components to your system that would reduce
intermodulation distortion in the midrange by a
factor of two or more, dramatically improve the
resolution of midrange and high frequency detail,
double or triple the dynamic range capability of
your system without changing your existing
amplifier or speakers and improve imaging more
than you can imagine. You would probably be
interested, right? But wait, there’s more.
These same components would allow the
amplifier to maintain tighter control over the
speakers in the mid-bass and lower midrange.
They could extend bass response to infrasonic frequencies
while lowering bass distortion and
improving the system’s ability to accurately convey
the rhythm and pace of music. And these
same components could virtually eliminate the
uneven response at lower frequencies caused by
room standing waves.
Does all that sound too good to be true?
Are you concerned about the possible cost of all
this improvement? If all this is so easily achievable,
are you wondering why you’ve never heard
about it before?
Let me assure you that all these sonic
improvements can be yours and I’ve been conservative
in my estimates of the level of audible
improvement you’ll get.

When properly integrated with the system,
subwoofers blend seamlessly with the main
speakers and don’t make their presence known.
But that’s a very hard sell to the average consumer
and selling is the name of the audio game.
Subwoofers are supposed to add bass, right?
After their initial forays into the market,
few manufacturers continue to try to make subwoofers
that accurately represent music. Why try
to educate consumers when it’s easier to just give
them what they think they want? Boom!
Subwoofer makers soon learned what
dealers had already figured out: if they can’t hear
it woof they won’t buy it. Manufacturers started
to build subwoofers with high-Q alignments and
vents in order to provide more “slam.” Dealers
started to set up their demonstrations for maximum
thump, and maximized sales figures.
Awareness of the basic concepts of specialized
bass reproducers faded or was suppressed.
Home theater exacerbated this situation.
People today expect a subwoofer to rattle their
fillings and the exaggerated bass that most subwoofers
deliver is incompatible with accurate
music reproduction.
But there is more to bass than boom—bass
is the foundation of all music. And there is more
to subwoofers than bass. They reproduce bass frequencies
to be sure, but bass extension is possibly
the least of the sonic benefits offered by good
powered subwoofers.
Why Good Subwoofers Improve Sound
In order to provide the benefits mentioned
at the beginning of this article, subwoofers must
utilize a dedicated bass amplifier, and the main
amplifier and speakers must be high-pass filtered
using a passive, first-order device.
A high-pass filter does just what you
would expect: it allows frequencies above the cutoff
point to pass, and blocks frequencies below
that cut-off point. " +++++

this is another quote on the subject:

+++++ " - There is no single external / stand alone amplifier that can work or do a better job than a low bass dedicated amplifier like the one that comes with a powered subwoofer:

think that this dedicated bass amplifier was designed/tailored to match every single woofer parameter: impedance, frecuency response range, damping, power, distortion, etc, etc,...

- It is not only this dedicated amplifier what makes this subwoofer approach/technology ideal to handle the low bass octaves.
The driver/woofer is designed/tailored too for that specific frecuency range.
There is no passive FRS ( full range speaker ), at any price with any amplifier, that could beat a self powered subwoofers in that frecuency range. When you have and hear the subs on your system you never can live again with out those subwoofers.

Here we have to remember other important issue: the best subwoofers are SERVO CONTROLLED, this characteristic give to the subwoofer a heavy advantage over a FRS about the low distortion that a well designed subwoofer had against a higher distortions on any FRS.

- With a subwoofer we not only gain with a lowest harmonic distortion but with a lowest intermodulation distortion too. This means better quality sound reproduction.

- Other advantage is that with the integration of two subwoofers in a true stereo fashion to a full range speakers system: the main ( s ) amplifier will be free of those high power consumtion low bass frecuency range: this means too, better quality music sound reproduction. No exception.

- Other advantage with the subs integration is that facilitate the integration of our mains speakers to the room.

Do you think that your FRS audio system sounds great? Wait till you do the subwoofers integration: you will be on music heaven !!!!!!!! Nothing less. Try it. " +++++

Please read carefully, I only want ( I would that ) that you understand the whole subject concept, if you want to aplicate or not is a totally different subject.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Psychicanimal: Biomimetic give you an answer about and I will try, along this thread, that the use of subs are essential for the analog sound reproduction.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Stevecham: +++++ " the soundstage opened up on all recordings. +++++ "

This is a plus when we installed the subs. If we haven't then we are loosing this characteristic.

+++++ " I think the main challenge is to take the time to fine tune the sub so that it is "not heard" and just picks up where your mains leave off. +++++ "

THis is our challenge whe we installed the subs. We ( José and I ) take around six months to settle in right on target.

Dear Steve I never had the opportunity to hear your speakers/subs combination but I'm sure they give you a lot of musical pleasure.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Newbee: +++++ " The reasons for a sub with monitors is obvious. More and better bass, when they are integrated properly. +++++ "

As Steve told us ( wider soundstage ) the use of subs are not only " more an better " bass, there are other important sound reproductions improvement when you use it.

+++++ " I believe that the best use of a sub is when your full range systems create bass problems in your room because the location of the main speakers creates very uneven bass response. +++++ "

THis is issue is very interesting, I never think about.

You are right: life is a trade off.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Tbg: You tell us, too, the trouble to integrate the subs with the main speakers and like I already told: this is our challenge. But I think it is worthwhile. The Beauhorns: I never heard it but I read very interesting things about.

+++++ " So the answer to your question is both absolutely you need subwoofers and absolutely no subwoofers are impossible. " +++++

I really like your answer and tell us everything about.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Dave : Tks for the links.
Try your system with two subs instead only one and try a crossover at: 80Hz, " listen " and decide.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Readster: The use of subs depends on many issues, like you say. I will try along this thread to explain: why we need it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Tim: Yes, you are right: Velodyne DD series.

Regards and enjoy the music.

Raul.

Dear Raytheprinter: +++++ " ,i like to hear whats on the recording " +++++.

I share this statement with you and is one of the reasons: why we need subs. I know well your Paradigms ( nice sound ) and maybe you have to try hard again for integrate your unused sub.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Biomimetic: +++++ " I think subs have more to do with your own ear and the music you prefer: undertones and overtones plus the way the music is engineered are very important. " +++++

As we can see over this thread, there are many reasons for what we need or don't need subwoofers. Your statement is one or two reasons about.

+++++" . The Velodyne's to me just seemed to make an under-enthusiastic whomp-whomp sound - a real one note wonder. +++++ "

Well, this true if you choose a wrong croosverpoint/phase/gain ( volume )/room location. I can tell you, for sure, that with the HGS and DD Velodyne series that does not happen.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear 76 doublebass: +++++ " ,but it added
more to every recording.The sub brought back the fullness
and proper timbre to the whole orchestra,and also gave every recording its proper depth of field. " +++++

These is something that the subs can give almost anyone.

+++++ " So do I need a sub now I DON'T KNOW? " +++++

You already give you the answer.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: Well, maybe all of us need 4 subwoofers.

In my case, it will be a very hard alternative because right now my audio system is a " musical event ". It is not if it have: resolution, pitch, dynamics, accuracy, tranparency, neutrality, etc,etc....

It is, well: BALANCED.

It is not only the seamless subs integration, that does not means nothing " per se ", it is that is like music: balanced.

Sirspeedy, you have to hear it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Blkdar: +++++ " . But going by music I have heard live, most contains at least bass harmonics that fill out the sound. " +++++

THis is other of the reasons for to have subs.

+++++" In some rooms (like mine) a 'fullrange' speaker can sound bloated because of room effect and tailoring a sub (or pair of subs) can be a better compromise. " +++++

I can see that you agree with Newbee and here again is where the subs can be used.

Tks for your words about my audio system.

Yes, this is my time: I will try to explain what are my bias and experiences about.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Psychicanimal: I agree with you about.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear friends:

Why it is important the use of subs on our home stereo audio systems ?

Well, for we can hear what is on the recording ( analog / digital / any ) we need a series of links ( audio items ) to build the whole chain for the music/sound reproduction.

All the links on the system chain are important and all of them have their particular distortions that put the " colors " to our " audio pictures ".

In this audio chain, in the analog case , the most imperfect links are at the front end: phono cartridges and the speakers. Here is where we have a lot of distortions ( of any kind ) because these audio music " translators " are truly an imperfect ones against electronics ( for example ). So, for me, these are the " tweak " links on the audio chain.

In this forum all of us already learn how to improve the cartridge link for a better music/sound reproduction ( less distortions ), but not many of us take care about the speakers distortions, other than the room interaction, that really " color " the final sound that we hear.

Why we take care about: VTF, VTA/SRA, Overhang, resonance tonearm/cartridge, SUT or not SUT, unipivot, air bearing, cables, tubes or not tubes, SS, DAC's, CD transports, and the like when all what we do can be corrupted at the end of the audio chain with full of speakers/room distortions.

Where the subs can help us ? :

Intermodulation Distortions: Almost any three ways speaker ( all two ways/one way ) has it's crossover frecuency ( low driver ) between 150Hz and 450Hz. I can assume that any of ours speakers system goes down flat ( at least ) between 60Hz to 20Hz.

What does that means ?, well that a single driver has to reproduce frecuencies/harmonics from 20Hz/60Hz to 150Hz/450Hz. With that kind of frecuency range here exist a great intermodulation distortions that put it's " color " on the sound reproduction.

You have to imagine that that single woofer/driver has to reproduce, at the same " time ", a 30Hz frecuency along a 350Hz frecuency: here is where exist that IM that gives heavy distortions in what we hear ( there is no perfect driver: moving coil, electrostatic, ribbon, etc.. The speaker designers has to choose the best " trade offs ", but the distortions are there. ): less clarity, less resolution, less precision, less natural balance, less pitch, les, less, less......., and this is what we are really hearing: LESS MUSIC.

If you read any manufacturer specifications on their speakers they never " write " the value of the IM or harmonic distortions, they tell us the frecuency range and how is flat on that range but never " talk " about distortions. I think that you know that when we have a speaker frecuency specifications, say: 28Hz to 22kHz +,- 3db, that is a very nice spec, that speaker low driver don't stop at 28hZ it's goes a few hertz below that frecuency with heavy harmonic distortion that increase the IM distortion of the sound reproduction of that driver and these additional distortions have a severe degradation in the reproduction of the MUSIC.

What happen when that low driver is free from those frecuencies ? ( main speakers: monitors or full range, it does not matters. My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz and I have benefits with the subwoofers integration to my system ), below 80Hz ( this is the crossover frecuency that we find the best point to start to blend a subwoofer. Mines are at around this 80Hz frecuency: 78Hz,yours ( I think ) will be around that frecuency. ):

SUDDENLY the " lights are on ", your music/audio " life " its born: the mid bass is clean, the midrange is clean, the highs are clean: high resolution every where ( the distortions are almost gone ), and now you can really hear for the first time the MUSIC through your home stereo audio system: what a pleasure!!!!!.

This is truly a discovery for all of us that cares about MUSIC. We really discovery what kind ( quality/quantity ) of audio system we really have ( now we can do any evaluation of any audio item, not before. ) and where to work for a future improvements.

Now that we already settle in the subwoofers ( self powered ) with our main speakers ( yes, it is a hard work to do. We need at least: very good ears, love for music, experience with live music, patience, time and good muscles. We have to work with: location of subwoofers and the main speakers too, phase, crossover frecuency, volume/gain. We need two subwoofers not one and this issue is critical. TIP: avoid the common asumption that the crossover point should be at the low frecuency flat response of the main speakers, example: the speakers are flat at 40Hz, then you choose 40Hz for the frecuency crossover between the subs and the speakers, this is a great mistake: remember that we use subwoofers not only for a better and extended low bass but for a better midrange/midbass too. So, the frecuency crossover will be over that 40Hz: not at 40Hz or below 40Hz. ), we have others advantages:

- better quality low bass ( you can have at least one more octave ) and mid bass ( quantity? : you choose it: volume/gain ) ). Now we can heard the " foundation " of the MUSIC ( and its harmonics ) and this single issue is stunning for the pleasure to hear any kind of music. Now, we are nearest to the " real MUSIC ", nothing less.

The first time you can hear the subwoofers right blended on your stereo home audio system: YOU NEVER COULD LIVE WITH OUT THEM AGAIN, ANY ONE CAN, period.

- An improvement in the soundstage reproduction in all parameters: deep, front/side location, wide of the stage, etc...

- the main speakers amplifiers works best ( less distortion, more headroom, less chance of clipping, less amplifier stress, etc...) with out to handle the frecuencies range that now are handle by the dedicated subwoofers amplifiers. This is important for an SS amplifier but for the tubes ones is a must.

- Now the low bass frecuencies are handle for a dedicated driver that was build with specifics characteristics for to work in that frecuency range and this low bass driver is matched with an amplifier ( self powered subwoofers ) that was build with specifications that mates excatly what the low bass drivers needs about: frecuency response, output impedance, damping, power, etc..... You can't ask for more!!!

- Not only the IM distortion goes down but the harmonic distortion of the low driver of your main speakers goes down too, Btw, the whole harmonic distortion goes down, because ( in the case of my Velodyne's less than 0.5%: with's yours? ) ) the harmonic distortion of a well self powered designed subwoofer is usually " very low ". This means ( again ) less coloration: MORE MUSIC.

Btw, and this is not the subject on this thread ( sorry ): We choose Velodyne because after test/research, Velodyne was the only subwoofer manufacturer that answer our questions ( web site, e-mails, reviews ) about harmonic distortion ( and other parameters )on their subwoofers ( no, this was not the only subject for we decide for Velodyne but was an important one ).

I remember ( example ) that I ask to Revel ( three times ) which was the harmonic distortion of their subwoofers at 20Hz and 40Hz at 90db, 100db and 110db of SPL, they give me many answers but never were specifics about, I assume they don't know it.

Check the manufacturer specifications about for: REL, Revel, Aerial, Wilson, etc,... and you can't find it. Who cares about? : You and me that cares about M U S I C , want to hear M U S I C and needs to be nearest to the M U S I C .

All what I post here are my own experiences and that's what I like to share with all of you.

It works for you?, maybe. I think that you have to try if your speakers are not self powered or headphones.

Imagine how could your Wilson's, Dynaudio's, Karma's, Sonus Faber, Dali's, Merlin's, Martin Logan's, Aerial's, Spendor's, Harbeth's, Thiel's, Alon's, Talon's, Paradigm's, JM Labs, Epos, Avalon's, Boston'S, B&W, Magneplanar's, Proac's, Quad's, Revel, Totem's, etc, etc..... sound.

Better than that: don't imagine, try it.

I can tell you that it works for me and that I'm extremely satisfied with the subwoofers integration in my home stereo audio system. Really I'm. !!!!!!

WELL: DO YOU THINK YOU NEED SUBWOOFERS?

Best regards and enjoy the music.

Raul.

Dear Biomimetic: It happen that I use supertweeters in my audio system.

Take a look: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1115433273&view

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear friends: There are other improvemenst when you mate subwoofers to your home stereo audio system, example:

Usually the location of the speakers in our room ( with out subs ) is a " compromise " ( trade off ) between the best performance at the bass against the best performance at the mid/high frecuencies ( only in a few cases the location is with out any " trade offs ". ), when we integrated the subs in our audio system we can have the best of both " worlds " and you will be in " heaven ".

Now you can really know how good ( or not ) is not only your audio system but any single audio item: cartridge/tonearm/cables/TT/preamp/amplifier/CD, and now you can detect any sound reproduction performance problems in those audio items and try to fixed/exchange: now and only now ( not before ) you can say " this is the best cartridge or tonearm or SUT ,etc.. " that I ever heard.

When your subs are settle-in in your system you don't have only a great high resolution system but a truly full range audio system in favor of the M U S I C .

Really, you don't know what you have ( the great potential of your system that right now you are loosing. It does not matters what you have. ) till you have yours: subwoofers. It is a pleasure that you can't imagine !!!!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Ray: As I already post the integration of the subs in any room is not an easy task and almost always we need to do some room's treatment but always is wortwhile every effort about.

Never is a wasting time to try again with the subs: you have to try and after that you will do the room treatment, not before.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Eldartford and Newbee: I suggest that you read carefully the links that Davehrab post here it can instruct about.

Btw, remember that the integration of subwoofers it's not only for a better ( quality/quantity ) bass but for a better midrange too.

Regards and enjoy the music.

Raul.

Dear friends: I wonder why many of the " regulars " on this forum decide ( till today ): " stay away " on this extremely critical subject for the analog music/sound reproduction.

Share with all of us your knowledge and points of view about, in that way all we could receive related audio benefits.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Eldart: +++++ " I regard the "subwoofer" not as a separate speaker system, but as part of the main speaker system...the part that the manufacturer left out because of size and cost. " +++++

I agree with you. It is always more " confortable " to design speakers with out that low end octave. So, they give us what they want not what we need, well: not what the MUSIC needs.

Like Stevecham told us, the name of the game is: "Integration" .

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gmorris: +++++ " . I have been able to obtain seamless integration of the subs with the maggies after many weeks of experimentation and frustration. " +++++

Always is a hard work for the seamless integration of the subwoofers: test and error experimentation.

The Maggies are wonderful main speakers and I never heard along with subwoofers, but I can imagine.

+++++ " To fully recreate the recording space you need the lower octaves even if the recording involves instruments sans the lower registers. " +++++

THis is absolutely true. I agree, too, with any single word about the advantages of two subs instead only one.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Eldartford: +++++ " I run the SWs up to 200-300Hz, and there is no doubt that it is better. " +++++

I can't imagine this situation ( maybe because I don't have enough experience with the Maggies ). Which are the frecuency limits of your SWs ?

Regards and enjoy the music.

Raul.

Dear friends: This is something that could help you to integrate the subs to your main speakers:

- first you have to find the best place for your main speakers.

- you can do that with the whole system " on ": speakers/electronic crossover/subs. Then choose the crossover point: 80Hz ( it is a good point to start ) and turn " off " the subs volume/gain and listen to your main speakers that now are working from 80Hz and up.

- listen and listen and listen through your main speakers and move them ( if neccesary ) till you find the best mid/high frecuency response performance.

- then do the same with your subs: alone ( main speakers off ) till you find the best room interaction with.

- now, with the whole system " on " : listen and listen and listen till you identified problems with the seamless integration of the main speakers/subs, that is the target.

- here you have to " play " with small changes in: crossover frecuency, phase, volumen/gain, room treatment and very small changes in the site of the subs/main speakers, till you " done ".

This is only a way to do it and give me the best results to integrate subs, not only in my system but on severals others systems. Sure you can do it in a scientific way. There are no absolute rules here, the only one is: " test and error ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Goatwuss: From your preamp: left output to your left side sub and right output to your right side sub .

About your REL question: my english is really bad and I can't understand what you mean.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Biomimetic: About your superteeters question: no, it is not tiring. I think that, like the subwoofers, in many audio systems the integration of STs is a must to have too.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Darkmoebius: +++++ " Perhaps it is best to run true L/R stereo signals to the subs instead of summed mono. " +++++.

Absolutely. If you have two subs it is a must to run in stereo way.

Bryston and Pass have very good X-over that can meet your targets.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Darkmoebius: I think that the Pass is an expensive unit, very well made and I hope meet your targets.

The Bryston is a very good one too and with many user friendly options. Second hand: "inexpensive " too.

Yes, please let us know how it works.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Goatwuss: I'm sorry for my mistake about your REL question, the problem was not my english but my unknow REL concept about subs: but now I understand how the REL subs work.

I think that you can't run the RELs on true stereo fashion, but if exist that alternative it really does not help to a stereo sound reproduction because it dos not roll-off ( take-off ) the low bass from your main speakers.

The REL desing only cover one of the objectives of a subwoofer: better quality/quantity low end. Its use is more for HT than for a true stereo home aplications, it can't really help here.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Eldartford: Tks for the Maggies info and ¡congratulations! you really do a great job with your self-design subwoofers.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.