geoffkait, "And while you’re at it see if they can get to the bottom of fuse directionality, why cryogenics improves the sound, and why premium fuses improve the sound." Those answers are all over the place. Once you are ready for them, I will tell you what they are. "And he does it so well. But he’s a two trick pony." You are half-right. I really do it so well. The rest is not call "tricks". It is called "art of wisdom". Or "wisdom of art", if you prefer it that way. |
Whatever way you can lead the new naming is fine, as long as it is a logical one.
It is, kind of, funny to read about "things that haven't been discovered yet". For now, they are just a fantasy. Once they get discovered, they become a "thing". I do not doubt that someone may, one day, explain many things we are arguing about here. Including "burn-in" of the speaker cables. The tricky truth for half of the participants is that someone may disprove it, too. For now, it is "it will be discovered" as an indisputable truth. Many things in science have been finally discovered, but many have been discovered to be hoaxes, so to say. I hope to live to see the unraveling of the "burn-in" enigma.
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blueranger, "It could be better called by some scientific name years from now." No need to wait for years. You already gave one suggestion. Sometimes, it is better to call things the way they are and not what seems mysterious. Many things on these threads are just like "burn-in". Even if it exists, it is wrong. Nothing is burning, especially not anyone's ears. If someone would constantly call you a greenranger, you would, at some point, say "what is wrong with you". |
nonoise,
No, I did not, but I will take that as a "yes" from you. You reminded me that I did see magnesium flash (old type camera stuff), though, so it would have to be a "yes" from me, too. It was probably a real burn right there, as short as it was. I guess, we need more magnesium speaker cables.
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blueranger,
Maybe people thought your question was rhetorical and not true question asking for an answer. You gave the answer in the first part of your sentence and did not end it with "?" which is the usual sign to let others know it is a question.
Speaking of dodging questions, have you ever seen a metal burn?
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"I believe in Burn in..…...Wire or metal is the same." Come to think of it, how many of us have seen a metal burning (in, out, in the middle, wherever)? I think that may point towards the answer. If your cable does burn, you need to switch to some fuse thread for suggestions. |
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I was also wondering should we look for gawdbless who is missing in action. He did it to us. Burned us all. |
andy2, "I have nothing against lawyers." You fooled us all. |
"There are very few criminal defense lawyers." I have a feeling that andy2 would disagree. He might say there are way too many of them. |
So I am not the only one to doubt Einstein as the biggest science star that we made him into? |
blueranger,
You just made the firmest case against burn-in that has been posted around here.
It seems there are no lawyers on this thread. At least no defense lawyers.
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aj-s, "Why does placing speaker cables in a pot of boiling water sound like lunacy to me but NOT to you?" Well, I see you are new around here. Stay for some time, follow cable threads, mix with fuse threads, and you will start believing in your own theories, too. You will surely get a following. Become like, you know, Cablevangelist. "How naive and gullible can one be?" Apparently a lot. Still, regardless of how naive you may or may not be, do not tell people they are idiots. It is not a good idea. |
I think aj-s is like any other great inventor. She/he had a moment of ingenious spark and could not recognize it her/himself. I suggest that all of us build upon it. |
aj-s, "Bunch of idiots the lot of you are..." Don’t be so harsh. We just thought you were a credible expert. And now you are telling us you are not and we are idiots to trust you. That is a pity, your idea seemed theoretically sound. On a good side of it, now that we know that we should not trust you, we will not trust your statement that we are idiots. |
blueranger, Can u measure a narrow soundstage? You may be asking this question on wrong forum. I suspect that the forum inhabited by guys who invented those ambiance modes many receivers and cell phones have had for the longest time would be a better place to ask. Those guys might have figured out some mathematical way to make you feel that soundstage is narrow, wide, etc. Maybe they also have an idea how to measure it. You know those modes "stadium", "church", "jazz club", and so on. They do not base that on cable burn-in so maybe there is a way around it. It may be worth asking if they know how to measure it. Here, we can discuss Engels, excretory functions, and some other topics. |
The meaning of this thread is to learn as much as we can about speaker cable burn-in. We are getting there. Progress is slow, but I am not losing hope. It has been getting more interesting over the last 20-30 posts.
Karl Marx, allegedly, did not wash himself that often.
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Air is definitely directional. Anyone who walked out around here today would tell you so. It did change directions from time to time, but was it windy. |
Is air burning?
I am burning-in cables right now with some Internet radio from far away. That helps as the signal collects more energy going under the ocean. Electric eel make wonders. I already hear much more rounded middle of the vocal mids in female singers. A few more years, and male voices will start getting shape.
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What is wrong with sanitation engineering now? It would help us if we had some sanitation engineers on this thread. There is something called "synonym" and it exists for many words all of us use daily. Knowing them can improve style and, dare I say, eloquence. |
"There are no instruments that can test it Kosst." Build them and they will come. Even Kosst will come. |
What is NPC? National Parrot Convention? |
Huh, those are some depressing views. And incorrect in many other people’s views. |
Eloquent is not the enemy of truth at all. It is just nicer and more coherent way of expressing it. Think of it as "truth with a style" rather than "truth with whining". Whatever the truth about burn-in ends up being, it is, except for manufacturers, only of academic importance.
I am not sure where did Marx land from in all of this. He lived way before speakers and amplifiers, I think. |
On these 18 pages, and between both camps, you could not collect 100 sentences that would qualify as somewhat scientific. Most of the "scientific" attempts are good for shrugging shoulders and not much else. There are lots of testimonies, but they are on both sides. Nobody wins.
I follow this thread because I do not have an opinion if burn-in exists or not. However, some of the claims and theories presented are not making a strong case for it. For now, the opponents are a bit more eloquent in refuting it theoretically. |
They may not be outlandish. They may be just right in Neverland or any other fantasy land. For normal living people, they are a sad joke. Relax your room, you will feel better. So will your cable. Nervous rooms and traumatized cables are a big problem in Hi-Fi.
It is not all I got. I use your references so you can easily find it yourself, too. |
I have not seen these outlandish claims cable manufacturers make. What are you guys talking about? Can someone do me a solid and post some of them.
http://www.cardas.com/insights_break_in.php
"Cables, cats, pianos and rooms all need to relax in order to be at their best."
"A note of caution. Moving a cable will, to some degree, traumatize it."
I am not sure if it would be accepted as outlandish, but bizarre or silly it is.
Note: Above statements are from an article provided as a reference two days ago by........geoffkait. |
I doubt that proving, or disproving, some cable falling apart or sounding one way or another, would undergo the same mechanisms of establishing the conclusion as solving the bank robbery. Highway robbery, on the other hand... |
Bobby only reads explanations without obvious conflict of interest. |
andy2,
You will really make me go and buy new speaker cables. You are doing a good job at that. |
no2headphones, My curiosity about DACs was actually limited to chips. I first tried just DAC and it brought me to much more but most were regarding DACs as a stand-alone machines or other, basically finished, products.
I have no idea how chips work and consider those who can design them very bright and admire their work. I found out that most threads that somehow talk about DAC chips have 10-20-30 posts. Maybe more, I really did not dig too deep, but far less than threads about cables. Not much discussion about comparison and other details and properties of DAC chips.
So I thought, on one side we have an item that is advanced in execution and that cannot be replaced by just about anything. Not many talk about it on Audiogon (some other websites are more active in that regard, though). On the other side we have an item that can, relatively functionally, be replaced by pretty much anything that conducts electricity and there are a few threads regarding it right now and they have hundreds of posts each. We get all technical and scientific about much simpler item barely mentioning the sophisticated one that does heavy work. I have a feeling that nobody who can figure out the way to improve DAC chips ever visits these threads. Who knows, they may be too busy improving a little piece which will enable us to differentiate between burned-in and not-burned-in cable in the future.
This would be kind of thread I was looking for to compare with cable threads. See how many and when. Yet, you will see threads about tweaks consisting of howling at the moon or bringing African plants into the room going much stronger.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/grounding-dac-chip-tweak?highlight=dac%2Bchip |
ganainm,
It was not a threat at all. Far from that. It is that on some of these threads people interact with others in a way they would never do in real life. There have been calls for death, suggestions of suicides, etc. Morons, trolls, you name it. I thought that keeping conversation in the way you would at the bar would be somehow acceptable. That is where 6'5" comes from. You do not start insulting a person just because he has a different opinion. At least you keep mind open. "You" not being you personally, but any of us. |
I have a feeling that almost nobody here is related to any manufacturer. Save for one or two who actually do not try to hide that fact. They do not flaunt it, but they do not pretend they have no connection to the manufacturing side. |
"I would think people buy cables for the sound quality. I don’t think they care about burn in."
Just this thread has 17 pages. At least half is our non-sense arguing about something else but actual question, but still. Eight pages, 400 posts or so, are arguing about existence of burn-in. Someone cares. I am not sure why, though, but someone cares. |
andy2, I might have misunderstood that article, but so would anyone reading it who was not deeply familiar with what you mentioned. To us, it simply says "no matter how hard you try, you are not going to get there". |
andy2, You are right but, from some marketing perspective, creating a story around a subject is desirable, too. Adding some sort of mystique is probably always positive in marketing terms. Expensive cables, whatever "expensive" is at that moment, are not aimed for majority of people. Majority would agree with your statements. Fancy cables are aiming at small group with its own ideas and personalities. Just read how stubborn both sides on cable threads are. That group needs more of a story than just "it is great". Call it a "marketing psychology" or something like that. Make it seem like they have to work for it. Restaurants with long waiting lists (weeks and so on) have been using that kind of approach for the longest time. It is not to say that burn-in does or does not exist. It is just why it would be a good thing for a manufacturer to talk about it. Not to mention that, in case cable does not sound phenomenal, they can always say "they need a really long break-in, months". |
"For many music lovers, this means that they are almost never hearing their cables in their optimum state.”
Did the marketing guy at Audioquest get fired after this? For an undecided prospective customer, this says "don't bother buying something expensive". |
This thread, and many similar ones, is only for decadent entertainment. What else could it be? Threads about cables get lots of action with ideas and opinions how to do things in some way being expressed quite energetically.
I was puzzled so I checked (just a quick search on Audiogon forums) how are the threads about improving DAC chips doing. Those little things that do the actual work in many, if not most, of our systems. Well, it does not seem that many people are interested in discussing that. DAC chips seem to be some orphan while cables are the favorite child.
I guess that talking about chip design, or whatever else regarding its function, requires a bit more actual knowledge and engineering skills than being bold while talking about wires, regardless of the side you are on. |
geoffkait, It is not a trap. I am selflessly spilling pearls of my imagination for advancement of audio reproduction. Not to mention, Biocables (I just named them this morning) would need to be directional so you get your minute of "I told you so" fame, too. I take care of you. You are welcome. |
Wait until you hear Schwann cell cables. They will be so fast that the song will finish before it starts.
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"Another prominent cable designer believes..." Prominent cable designer gets three points for admitting to believe rather than claiming. Instead of burn-in, cable risers, and all other ideas, why someone would not make cables with the principle of Schwann cells? That seems like a very logical next step. Hop-hop and there is a new dimension of "fast" in audio. My cable is faster than yours. Come on, manufacturers who are quietly monitoring these threads to see what could be sold, try that. Nobody would be able to argue it is crap. It has worked for thousands and thousands and thousands of years and has been produced in countless billions. Now, just to figure out how to make it and that is all. What you are doing now is a copper-age joke. |
blueranger,
I already am a believer. I believe that you experienced everything you mentioned. I keep mind open about cables but do have some doubts. Thankfully, it is not much of my obsession so I can enjoy reading about both views without getting agitated. Some claims earlier in the thread do not defy current physics, that one may still be in diapers. There are claims that defy logic on a very basic level.
If someone at Cardas, or whatever other manufacturer, said "it is that way and we have no clue why, but it sounds that way", less people would argue about it. Unfortunately, companies try to come up with explanations to impress potential buyers and those explanations are at times laughable. Once rooms start getting relaxed and cables traumatized in whatever way, credibility goes out the window.
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It is getting emotional indeed...
"A note of caution. Moving a cable will, to some degree, traumatize it." This just in! Cardas explains cable break in.
http://www.cardas.com/insights_break_in.php
Who writes these things? Even worse, who reads that? I guess, me. Yes, thanks geoffkait. You proved I am a dummy. |
This just in! Cardas explains cable break in.
http://www.cardas.com/insights_break_in.php
"Cables, cats, pianos and rooms all need to relax in order to be at their best."
I knew my piano tuner has been robbing me. He is always tightening strings and telling me they got loose over time.
How on Earth do you relax a room?
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blueranger, "They settled down later." Wouldn’t that mean that burn-in is not a permanent effect? Does the burn-in have to be repeated after, let’s say, a few weeks of vacation?
It would be exactly the opposite from...
"Have you heard the term electromigration? A current causes permanent changes in a wire" Is there a third part that is missing between above two sentences? |
Even if there sonic difference between the sound pre and post burn-in, has anyone ever reported it to be detrimental to sound quality? Anyone?
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I had no idea that AudioQuest makes helmets. On the other hand, that would be a more meaningful product. |
"Pop quiz: why does AudioQuest highly polish the surface of their solid conductor cables?" To improve appearance. |
How come that every tweak is positive? Is it possible that something actually influences the sound in a non-favorable way? Is burn-in of the cables always something that should be positive, or does it have a negative impact on the sound, too? It might have not been said explicitly, but all the reviews mentioning it are glowing. It is always for better. What are the chances? |
mitch2, I am sure you have not been texting with the 80 000 who "hear it". I know this how? There are no 80 000. geoffkait said the other day that he made them up. (page 14 of this thread, October 12, 2018) We should finally put this 80 000 fantasy to rest and never mention it again. |
