Hi guys....I was looking for some info on Google and saw this thread. I wanted to respond to the post that said in my videos I don't talk about how ARC sounds to PrimaLuna and that I only speak of parts and engineering. The reason is everybody says their gear sounds good. And it would be unusual if it didn't. But the way something is engineered and built is black and white.
Is anybody on this thread in the Los Angeles area? I would like somebody independent to come here and we will do a level matched within .1dB A/B instant comparison between a bone stock $3399 PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium and a fresh but broken in $8500 VSI75 we just had traded in. That person can report here. Or maybe a few of you guys. I'll even come in on my day off. It would be fun!
I want to make a comment that will stir up a hornets nest. I'm just waiting for ICE to come down on some audio companies that claim made in USA, Japan, or Austria that are made in China. I can look at parts and see through it, and privately people are honest with me so I know. I've been to the factories in China and seen the names. Kits are made in China where the PCB's are stuffed and the chassis are made, they get shipped here and the boards are screwed into the chassis. Others imply being made somewhere else by putting a country with their name like Triode Japan, they have no country of origin sticker at all.
My Iphone is made in China. That's where electronics are made. But for Americans that think they get a leg up in quality with made in USA they need to be careful to not be complacent. It's your money. Look at how it's built. Hence my videos. |
I confess to not having heard the Dialogue Premium. Watch Fremer’s videos of the ARC factory tour on youtube. It takes a week to hand-build a Ref 6 at AR’s Minnesota factory. Every transistor is stuffed and soldered by hand, all assembly in every other aspect is by hand, parts are not only proprietary but are not shared from one model to the next, and after each piece gets measured, it does not leave the factory until Warren Gehl listens to it. Do you think that’s the way of things with PL? Cheap labor saves a lot of money but there are far larger differences that account for the price differential. Point to point is very nice, It does not make one piece of gear better than another ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well that’s not true. They make a point that the output transformers are the same on the Ref 75 and VSI75. Output transformers are the single most important part of any tube amp. Nothing wrong with sharing parts. I’m sure they share many. It’s just engineering and parts guys. There is no magic to ANY of this. I saw that MIT box they are offering reviewed in the new TAS for $80,000 and they say it takes 200 hours to built. I’m sure it works. But your employees solder very slow. There is so much puffery in this business now it’s really making me shake my head. There are more nuclear submarine scientists with top secret clearance in high end audio than you can shake a stick at. All of them do things that require engineering so advanced they can’t share it with anybody. Including you. Just trust me and give me your money. After doing this for a living for over 40 years, I’ve gotten a little grumpy with old age I guess. As to the build quality of PrimaLuna, it far exceeds any brand mentioned thus far. It’s simply a fact if you look at the parts and how they are built. And reviewers agree. I think that one of the most experienced tube audio reviewers writing today is Stereophile’s Art Dudley. He likes expensive stuff, but when he reviewed a PrimaLuna he said: "I’ve never seen a better-built amp: ...Someone made this as if it mattered." The new line is so far more advanced than what he reviewed. As to how it’s built, the assembly is done in a factory that is a division of an Aerospace manufacturer. Every part going in is PrimaLuna’s alone, and tightly controlled by the Netherlands, with more parts in the signal path from Japan and Europe than any brand I know of. Swiss made silver-plated OFC wiring, Alps Blue Velvet volume control, Takman audiophile grade resistors, and Fujistu relays and Nichicon caps all from Japan. Mundorf Mcap Evo Silver Gold capacitors from Germany. Every completed product goes into a robotic arm where it is rotated into six positions and measured while playing test tones. Regardless ...all these products sound great. That’s not a tall order. What I would like is to invite some Audiogoners over to listen and they can post their own honest opinion. Is anyone of you here in Southern California? |
Oh, one last thing Kevin, should you happen to see this; twice now you’ve mentioned this six-position testing regimen. What in the hell does that have to do with anything? Do gravitational forces effect electrons flowing through a piece of kit? Now you sound like one of those self-proclaimed space/aerocraft engineers! These are NOT chronometers! (I am a watch guy too). Oh, I lied. One more thing-by state of the art standards, Alps Blue Velvet volume controls are universally viewed as mediocre/undesirable. With any pre-amp, the volume control is absolutely critical. Factories charged with making electronics, especially for aerospace and defense industries, not only rotate them to make sure every solder joint is perfect but will also put them into "shaker" machines to make sure they stand up to vibration. In fact shaker machines back in the old days used 6550 and KT88 power tubes!! As to the Alps Blue Velvet, it’s an EXCELLENT part. Period. I suggest you look at how they measure, and read the comments of Stereophile Editor In Chief John Atkinson when he benches PrimaLuna products that use them. In his last review of the HP integrated he said: "Balance remained within .25dB and the frequency response didn’t change. The DiaLogue Premium obviously uses a high-quality part for its volume control" Have you learned about the volume control of the new preamp you are buying? I’m sure it’s fine and should be a step up from what they use in the VSI75, which is the Analog Devices AD5293 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD5293BRUZ-50-RL7/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuD%2f7PTYBwKqdeb0... Of course the best volume control is a stepped attenuator. Got that. But then you have steps and no remote (unless you go with one of the new super tweaky ones). The message is this: The Blue Velvet measures well and lasts, and it’s not a chip. Using the AD5293 would be less expensive. But PrimaLuna wanted the best sound and I think what they have supplied is pretty damn nice...especially in a preamp weighing 37.5lbs that is dual-mono, tube rectified, with point to point wiring. For $2199. I too collect watches. Hard core. And I think that many people dream of owning a Rolex. Rolex makes a good, serviceable watch. And the company has done an excellent job of marketing "the dream" and most important...controlling the ability of their dealers to make a profit through careful handling of distribution. But if you open a Rolex, and talk to a real horologist that knows watch movements, you will see that Rolex is machine and mass produced more than most brands. To an incredibly high standard. But a serious watch collector would never compare them to a Patek, Lange, Jaeger, and the other brands where the movements are finished as works of living art. Having said that I’m wearing a Rolex Submariner right now! I love it. But I don’t kid myself about what’s inside. I know I’m paying for the prestige. Audio is often times like watches. The price is determined not by the engineering and build costs, but by how much they think they can charge and not have them sit unsold on a shelf. It’s completely arbitrary. That’s why I keep harping on using Google Images to look inside any given product so people can see for themselves and count up the parts. Anybody can do it. None of these parts cost that much, except transformers. |
I could not agree more about Rolexes and anyone who even casually reads the watch boards knows that what you say is true. Do you know about the NOMOS Tangomat? German made rather than Swiss, but movement is made in-house with incredible precision and decoration. I just got out of watch re-hab. Had to spend 30 days there, then to a half-way house where we had to wear only quartz watches for six months. So NOMOS is not a watch I'm familiar with. But they look beautiful! I wear chronographs for the most part. If you like German watches I bought a Grieb and Benzinger re-housed Patek when they were first starting out and they were "cheap". Now they are crazy high, but in Platinum cases, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1KjirKprNk |
I try to stick with the facts. That way it can’t be called marketing, which is what I loathe most in my industry. The most reputable brands are at times the worst abusers, because nobody questions them. Look at speakers. It was 15 years ago that a $100,000 speaker was almost crazy. Now it’s ho-hum. One "reputable" brand offering up a $675,000 speaker. For a speaker???? Oh...but it’s "Limited" to 75 pairs. Jeepers thanks for that. A Pagani Zonda S Super Car was limited 15 units, but sold for $500,000. What costs more to engineer and build: A pair of speakers or a hand-made super-car....with a nice stereo in it, and a pair of custom-made driving shoes made by The Pope’s cobbler???
I take preamps apart all the time. I simply follow the signal path to see what they do. There are no new designs in preamps. Nothing has changed for decades.
And there is a lot of BS. For example when I hear a manufacturer say "mimimalist design" , that actually means fewer parts. Fewer parts should mean a lower price. Right? Nope. Dennis Had from Cary felt the best preamp he designed had two gain tubes and a 6CA4 rectifier tube. And was $1500. I benched it here and indeed it was the best testing preamp in a shootout we did.
I also see things that are flat out wrong, from reputable companies that SHOULD know better. The idea of a line stage preamp having 23, 27 or even 30dB of gain is silly. Yet it happens. When you use a preamp, you are usually DROPPING gain by at least 6dB in normal use. Then people wonder why they have noise and microphony problems.
FYI your ARC isn’t one of them. They know what they’re doing. And no doubt it’s a great preamp.
One more comment: Take a preamp that was considered top drawer in 1984, and put the price of that preamp into an inflation calculator. A flagship two chassis preamp with phono stage included was $3700. Inflation adjusted that would be $8886 today. Two chassis. Phono stage included. It's worth pondering.
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"But PrimaLuna wanted the best sound and I think what they have supplied is pretty damn nice "
Isn't "they" you & your partner, Kevin?
Of course! Why do you think I'm answering? I don't own the company. Let's make that clear. But I'm ecstatic to be involved because I love tube gear so much and if I can help somebody make that leap...even if it's not with my company...I'm happy! People need to try a tube amp once in their life. |
Look inside the Oyster case of an ARC Ref 6 and tell me that you're not impressed. By the way...congrats on a bad-ass preamp. I would also guess you will get the matching amp at some point and it will look and sound beautiful. Every time I get something a little nicer I'm always happy years later. That's for sure!!
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I would love to know how PL stood up to ARC in a controlled listening test, especially against ARC reference equipment I can’t believe nobody on this thread lives in So Cal???? You can’t "demo" an amp at a store. Or a preamp. There is only one way to really make a comparison and that is level-matched, and hot, playing the exact same music. That’s how we do it. The aural memory isn’t good enough. I have really good ears and tons of experience. I can’t do it, and people that think doing it any other way are fooling themselves. I would love to do a test like that for you. It’s eye-opening and fun. |
That's just silly. Many dealers have good listening rooms and an audiophile can certainly make an initial evaluation there. Sometimes it's easy to ascertain that an amp is too bright, or lacks bass, or is just in some way not to the liking of the listener.
All of those characteristics can change by moving a speaker an inch. Raising or lowering volume a few dB changes everything about perception of sound. Fletcher and Munson figured that out in the 30's. Picking out speakers? Of course. You must listen. Amps? Level-matched, same room, same speakers. You're kidding yourself otherwise. Looks like I have at least one or two guys willing to come out. I can even demonstrate how your mind can get tricked if you want. My loving wife will feel abandoned, but I can meet tomorrow anytime or Sunday if it's early. Next weekend I can meet Saturday the 15th or earlier Sunday. Check your calendars if you can please. Most happy to host you. I love dinking around with gear. |
Kevin at UpScaleAudio, here's an idea that I think many on this thread might like. If you go through with the sound challenge or something like it, make a video of it and then post it on your YouTube channel.
I don't know what to put up on Youtube but I guess we could show how to A/B gear. It isn't rocket science. With SOME tube amps you can switch from one to another hot. A new employee here was doing an A/B for a customer between the DiaLogue Premium preamp and the PS Audio BHK. The customer liked dynamic music which included hip hop etc. I left them alone and they came to the conclusion the BHK was MUCH MORE dynamic than the PrimaLuna. I don't doubt that the two can be a little different. The BHK is a hybrid after all. But MUCH MORE DYNAMIC? Nope. I asked if they came to this conclusion in a level matched A/B...they said no. I used an SPL and set it up to compare the two again...and they were both shocked how wrong they were. The louder demo will 99% of the time sound better. Now...level matched...the customer went for the PrimaLuna though I will tell you in this case it's a difference in color. When you get to the best preamps that's how it goes. The best example I know of is back in the late 70's stereo stores used switch boxes to go between speakers. If we left a customer alone to flip a switch between and choose either 88dB Advents and 96dB Cerwin Vegas....the Cerwin Vegas would always "win". |
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skyhawk51 I would just relax and have fun. You have a nice amp and preamp, and I suspect you will get many hours of enjoyment from it. In a month or so all this angst will fade I suspect.
Some amps don't have plate fuses and rely on sacrificial resistors. If the amp breaks again fix it yourself. It's not that tough. Or find a local tech. Tube amps are very simple by nature.
My biggest hope is that people try owning tubes at least once in their life. I would rather have a very good $2399 tube integrated over a $20,000 stack of reference solid state separates. I mean that. If I had only solid state my listening would drop by 50%. Or more.
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It's official. We will do an precise level-matched A/B comparison of the ARC VSI75 and the DiaLogue Premium integrated amps. Also attending is Bob Levi President of the L.A. and Orange County Audio Society.
Both are fabulous amplifiers. We'll meet at 10 am this Saturday. Can a couple of you guys come? It's open to all. |
I want to work with the best time for everybody. Bob Levi says he will be here at 10AM. It's so blasted hot in California now it's hard to do anything during the day but stay in and listen to music. I would almost like to say 11AM so I can go for a motorcycle ride in the morning. I'm easy.
Who can come, and what time is best?
You guys tell me what works and I will ask Bob too. It's this Saturday. I'm going on vacation the next Saturday. I'm going to the Focal factory in France to take a tour which from what I hear is incredible, then after that meeting with Herman from PrimaLuna.
As to filming the meeting we have here, not sure what you would like to see. Tell me and I can try. I don't have employees here Saturday but maybe I can get the wifey to do it. |
Wish I could be there - too long of a trip from NH!
Come on out to L.A. Greg!! As an added bonus, we'll get you signed up with the religious cult of your choice, get you in a high-speed chase, or a fire just for showing up!! |
This is interesting! Can you please tell us more about how the test will be conducted? Will it be double-blind?
The way I do an A/B is first I play music at a healthy volume suitable for listening and evaluating on one amp. Then I play a test tone and use an SPL meter to measure the volume. I then hook up amp B to the same source, play the same tone, and adjust volume on amp B where it's playing at the same volume as amp A within 0.1dB. 1dB is close, but 0.1dB or 0.2dB is the best if you can make them that close. Then while both amps are hot, play a track on amp A, move the source and speaker to amp B, and listen. Simple. Same cut. Same volume. Don't even turn off the amps. Instant. I suspect that the difference will be quite noticeable, so double blind really isn't needed like you do with cables and tweaks. |
Kevin, what speaker and source will you be pairing with these integrateds?
A PS Audio Directstream DAC as it has an excellent output section, and at the moment we have Focal Sopra 2's set up PERFECTLY in our bigger room and they will be revealing for both top end and bottom end reach. |
Tablejockey, musicpod and fsonicsmith?
I had a customer contact me through e-mail named Mark N. Is that one of you? |
Here's the deal..no pun intended. This Saturday at 11. I told Bob Levi 10 so need to make sure that works or him. The VSI75 is broken in and near new so the tubes are fresh. It's the latest version with KT150's. I'm most happy to put the tubes on an Amplitrex if anybody asks so there is no question about validity. The PrimaLuna is a demo $3399 Dialogue Premium with stock EL34's. I could use an HP but the Dialogue will be fine. Level matched. Double blind too if you can figure a way to do that. I want the change from amp to amp to be instantaneous as the mind is not as sharp as people think. Its open to whoever wants to come. Please email me at [email protected] with a name and cell number just in case of an emergency. The spirit of of this is having fun. I am a fan of all tube gear including ARC and they are a fine company. Particularly the old stuff. I have a collection of tube gear throughout the years including the well regarded D150 and SP10 mkII and SP11mkII. I rebuilt the SP10 which was interesting. When I retire I plan to do nothing but dick around with all the stuff that's accumulated. |
Call me skyhawk51 909-931-9686 and we can talk if you like. As mentioned I know that preamp and I suspect the Tungsram will rock your world cheap. If you want to talk about ins and outs of preamps happy to do so.
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I'll answer a few folks here:
Tablejocky - No ..we will use EL34's. That's stock. Remember that line? "We don't need no stinking KT150's" We'll play some Stevie Ray and a couple other really well-recorded dynamic pieces.
jbhiller - Thank-you for the kind words. The amp was not broken per se. It was the cable for the volume control came loose in shipping. We got the amp back and simply plugged it in. I replaced the amp because when people get new gear....it's a rush. And far be it for me to be a buzz-kill to that 'rush" as we say in California. Thank-you for your parience.
skyhawk51 - Yes you can use the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium preamp with virtually any amp made. It has a low 256 ohm output impedance. If you go read my videos on preamps, you'll notice you can make a decent tube preamp for $1500 retail and make money. It's not tough. Your preamp is a sum of parts. Two 6922's per channel, and decent performance no doubt. Going up will reap some benefits, but not as large as going up in amps. The DiaLogue Premium preamp will go head to head with $25k preamps, partially due to every bit of the circuit path is done right, meaning:
Dual mono, tube rectification, point to point wiring, big toroid transformers, and details like AC Offset Killer, Takman resistors, Mundorf Mcap Evo SilverGold caps, ect. It's 53lbs.
But the other part of that is diminishing returns in preamps. Have fun with what you have and upgrade the 6922's to something that fine-tunes the color to your liking. It can be done cheap. I know that preamp, and you can use Tungsram PCC88's in it and get a nice bump for cheap.
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Kevin is just plain wrong-amps are at their heart the simplest of electronics- not preamps. Amps do nothing more than regulate the energy coming out of your wall.
The opposite is true. Read everything I've said and I can tell you that you can make a DECENT tube preamp for $1500 that sounds damn good. Cary made one called the AE-3DJH and it benched better than most. Tube preamps are SIMPLE and that's why manufacturers are over-charging customers with big empty boxes. Now you get to the details. What kind of regulation, rectifying the AC, hybrid or not, dual mono. But I'll be the first to admit big diminishing returns and that's exactly why doing a level matched A/B will be less telling. Tube amps are completely different, and it's harder to cheat. The differences are much greater between the good and bad. And they can be bucks up and bad. Amps don't "regulate power from the wall." Output transformers are the key, and they are half art, half science. And expensive....which is why companies looking to maximize profit use cheap (and small) power AND output transformers. They are the single largest cost. As to the A/B test, if you want double blind I can try to hide the wires. I would expect the more expensive amp to benefit from NOT being double blind, as people will be impressed. As to which tubes, the idea is to compare stock with stock. I'm not going to upgrade the tubes on the PrimaLuna. It negates what this is about. Would the PrimaLuna benefit from dropping in $400 worth of KT150's? I suppose. But what good does that do? It muddies the water. |
I've left the ARC on overnight, and it sounds a ton better when it's super hot it appears. For that reason, I'm not turning off the amps. I know how to do it, and they have to be hot.
So I think I will compare the ARC VSI75 and a PrimaLuna HP. They are both glorious. |
Kevin you keep bringing up the Cary AE-3DJH. Since when was it ever a standard-bearer?
That review was the wrong preamp. The AE-3MKII was OK, but not nearly as good as the AE-3 DJH, which stood for Dennis J Had because he felt it was his best design. And at $1500. I never said it was a standard bearer. It’s an example of how simple it is to make a decent tube preamp cheap. Some would put it in a big empty box with a nice faceplate and charge $5k for it. This comment about an amp “regulating AC to DC” is like…I don’t agree, respectfully. Tube amps also handle small signals. But that’s when it gets complex. Because of the power needs of the tubes, you need a massive power transformer unlike a preamp, then you need good regulation, which is easier on a preamp, then the driver section to drive the grids of the power tubes, then the biggest key: Output transformers. Expensive, and you need two of them. No matter what else you do, if you don’t have great output transformers, it all means nothing. Preamps don’t use them except for a small number of transformer coupled preamps like BAT’s top models.
PL has taken traditional but dated basic circuit designs, added some user-friendly features, built them to tank-like standards, and at great prices This is true, but it’s about SOUND not just being user-friendly. Adaptive AutoBias is ADAPTIVE. There have been auto bias circuits before. Even from Golden Tube Audio. AAB is about sound quality when tubes have many hours on them, or when they are pushed to their limit and experience pinch-off. It also allows the amp to run in Triode or Ultra-linear at the push of a button on the remote. And it’s how you can flip a switch to fine-tune performance between smaller dissipation tubes like EL34/KT66 and larger dissipation tubes like KT88/KT120/KT150. And finally, it protects the amp instantly in the event of a tube short, which would have helped the guy that started this thread, and would have told him which tube was the culprit and eliminate drama. It was engineered by the Chief Designer for Goldmund in Switzerland, who was credited with penning some of their most iconic products. A REAL engineer. Who also designed the output transformers and created other PrimaLuna designs you won’t find elsewhere like the AC Offset Killer to help make the power transformer dead quiet, the circuit on each input that provides a solid input impedance to source components, a proprietary cross coupled feedback on the power amps to add control without the negative feedback nasties, power transformer and output transformer protection in case of customer mistakes, and also created the Tjoebclock vacuum tube to address jitter in PrimaLuna CD players and the upcoming DAC. All performance. All exclusive to PrimaLuna. As to “dated basic circuit designs”, there are no new designs. In preamps or amps. Most every push-pull amp uses a twist of Ultra-linear (ARC has their version) or Pentode (Mac and Quad have their versions). Ultra-linear was invented in 1938 and made famous in the 50’s. Not a lot has changed. There is a booklet written about this by Scott Frankland for Sonic Frontiers many years ago that is FABULOUS. Download it here http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf
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See you guys at 11. I will get there at 10:30. The phone number is 909-931-9686.
Cheers!
Kevin |
It was a fun time. We had six people in attendance. I had the $8500 VSI75 set up, a DiaLogue Premium integrated ($3399) with KT150 tubes (add about $400) and an HP integrated ($4399). All of them had been on for days, all had tubes that test new. All of them sounded fabulous.
At first we listened unblinded, and I think everybody liked all of them, but no real conclusions were made. I had a feeling people were being effected by what they THOUGHT should sound best.
So I decided to make it a blind comparison by blocking the amps from view with cardboard and when I switched from one amp to another I asked that people look away so they could not "figure it out". I played the DiaLogue w/KT150’s first, the HP second, then the VSI75, and asked them to pick their favorite. The votes were as follows:
DiaLogue Premium w/KT150’s 4 votes
HP with stock EL34’s 2 votes
VSI75 0 votes
But don’t read too much into that. This is not to say it’s night and day between any of them. The VSI75 is fabulous...especially if you leave it on a lot and it’s hot. I use an HP at home with KT150's and it's amazing. But it's not night and day from a stock one with EL34's. It's a small nudge.
I would be ecstatic with any of them, and would prefer them to a stack of reference solid state separates.
I want to thank all those that attended including Bob Levi from the LA Orange County Audiophile society. |
It was a learning experience for me too, mainly because I found that it needed to be done blinded as it's one less thing to think about during listening.
The HP is better than the DiaLogue Premium, that's for sure. The amps are exactly the same internally except the HP has a larger power transformer, a second Adaptive AutoBias board, four more power tubes, and the headphone capability.
Doing this test I learned that customers do like KT150's since the $3399 DiaLogue equipped with them got the most votes. While that's an expensive upgrade it's a LONG TERM upgrade. The plate voltage and biasing is so easy in PrimaLuna's they go forever. I have KT120's with over 5,000 hours on them that test at 90% of new. My KT150's at home get used a LOT and after two years they test at 90%. But the uptick is small, and I LOVE EL34's!
As to comparing a DiaLogue Premium pre and HP amp to an ARC...I only have an LS26 and LS27 trade in here. I have a VT100 MKIII that needs repair but it's not even close to being current. If anybody has an amp they want to drag over they are welcome to. I did not want this to be "us vs them" and I don't want people pissed at me.
I'm leaving for France this week and will be gone until August 14th. I'm touring the Focal factory and that's supposed to be AMAZING. Then I meet with the people from PrimaLuna for a couple weeks.
I hope you guys downloaded that Taste of Tubes thing I linked to. |
One more thing I have to say about color and perception of good sound. You can make as big an impact on the sound of your system with small signal tubes rather than power tubes, at lower cost, and in a more predictable way.
In integrated amps or power amps it's the two input tubes. In preamps do the gain tubes first as the cathode followers (if so equipped) have an effect, but not as much. NOS (new old stock) 12AX7's are getting hard to find. 12AU7's are very plentiful. 6922's are still around, but starting to get more difficult.
And if you make a mistake....put 'em in a drawer for later. Your system may change. At some point you will be happy you have them!! |
So why is it that at the very same time, PL makes it sound as though it's auto-biasing and protection circuits are revolutionary? Even evolutionary?
The nexus of PrimaLuna is a man not happy with what's being made, who is very good at gathering engineering talent and looking at problems. Herman van den Dungen is that man. He also is the man created Kiseki, and created the Ah! Tjoeb CD player both of which have near cult status. My input come from being the complaint department for most every brand of tube audio made. When a poorly designed tube preamp with 27dB of gain goes through tubes, it's the tube dealer that has to explain it more than the company that made preamp. And we've re-tubed over 70,000 components since Upscale Audio opened over 20 years ago. Hence my involvement. Whether it's evolutionary or revolutionary..I can't say. I CAN say it's careful consideration of what IS possible. You are buying a fabulous statement product that will serve you well. Both the preamp and amp are beauties. I don't know if you said what you plan to do about speakers? |
fsonicsmith you are da man. What a fun journey. Someone asked me today if I was ready to retire. Hell no. I'm having more fun now than ever. I still collect vintage receivers.
I'm going to be at the Focal factory in France next Tuesday and will be taking a few videos. I hear it's incredible. Which ones were you thinking about? |
"The
DiaLogue Seven is completely handwired,
point to point—and I’ve never seen
a better-built amp. Wires were neatly
trimmed and dressed, with no strand out
of place. I spent a long time trying to find
a single bad solder join, and could not:
Someone made this as if it mattered." - Art Dudley, Stereophile Magazine
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Art Dudley is one of the industries most experienced and respected writers.
And this was an earlier product before PrimaLuna added Silver-plated oxygen free copper wiring imported from Switzerland, Takman resistors, and Mundorf Mcap Evo Silver/Gold caps.
I don't think I need to address build quality. Or how they are built, or what "qualifies" as point to point. The most technically adept critics have all said it. If there is a better built amp, I'd like to hear about it. Only to applaud it as they exist I'm sure. The only contender I can think of off-hand is Atma-Sphere. Any others in that club, my hat's off to them! |
I don’t think I need to address build quality. Or how they are built, or what "qualifies" as point to point. I don’t mean to be a stickler, but respectfully Kevin, I think you do, since it’s in your advertising collateral.
What I meant is it's been well recognized in literally every PrimaLuna review that they are built better than most any tube brand on the market regardless of price. Most any brand. Most any price. It's been written about over and over by the most technically adept magazine reviewers. Dick Olsher, John Atkinson, Art Dudley, Herb Reichert, and many others. Hence our latest magazine ads called "Preamp Fairy Dust" and our suggestion to customers to use Google images before dropping a dime on ANY HiFi purchase. Tube amps and preamps are simple and benefit most from point to point construction. Having said that, there are some protection circuits we have that MUST be PCB. Adaptive AutoBias is a big, complex board but it's not in the signal path. Our CD players and soon to be released DAC will of course have some PCB's and some point to point. No way around that. Our upcoming phono stage will most likely be the same way. High end audio prices are arbitrary and in many cases have zero to do with engineering and build costs. Some big names charge as high a price as they can without losing sales, others that are new hope to build credibility by having a price so high it defies logic. Wow! It's expensive. It must be good. That, my friends, is the absolute truth.
I met with a manufacturer Tuesday that wants me to sell their product at Upscale. They have raised their prices 25-30% every time they come out with something new while internally they are cheaper by my parts count. I looked at them and asked "What's your next move? When does this stop?" Why not a small increase and better product?
There are others that see that in the long run our industry is not doing itself a favor, and they hold the line and still make a decent living at it. Quicksilver, Rogue, and a few others. Look at Klipsch Heritage speaker series as an example. They should be applauded and held up as a standard (FYI I don't sell them .... but I should) My wife Laura says I'm grumpier with my graying hair. She's probably right. I think I'll go yell at some kids to stay off my lawn. |
Allan: The DAC is finished in prototyping. No ETA or any other info as yet. If anybody is looking for a PS Audio Directstream I had a brand new one that was purchased by a customer that two weeks later got transferred to Europe and we could not get the voltage switched in time and he had to buy a 230v. His unit is for sale I think but perhaps it got sold. He also had the new transport. Incredible opportunity. Thom_mackris : I like your thinking. What’s your take on Rogers then? Cathode bias, and I suspect they run the tubes hot. Yet they say this on their website. It's all true, except I've not seen a cathode bias amp with "the longest tube life". : - Auto Bias Circuit– For long tube life and ease of operation. Self Bias circuit for adjustment free operation and longest tube life. Customer does not need to adjust tube bias. As the tubes age, they adjust for bias changes automatically. The customer can change tubes at any time or replace a single tube rather than the full set of 4 and the amp will automatically re-bias for the change.
fsonicsmith: BAT makes some incredible products. The VK33SE, at $9995, is shockingly good. Look at the way they make their volume control with actual laddered resistors, dual-mono, toroidal transformers, transformer coupling, tube regulation, you name it. If you look at it and listen to it you will truly see how amazing it is. The problem BAT had was being "in vogue" as well as giving dealers a true safe haven to sell at retail, which others do real well. And the dealer margins weren’t that great in the first place. The behavior of dealers to that is what creates being "in vogue" Trust me on this folks. I’ve done this as a living for 40 years. Stripping away all that, the VK33SE at $9995 is amazing. No qualifications. But the original poster said it here in his original post. ARC was his dream. That always plays a part, and that’s fine. When I get back from my trip, I’d be down with doing another comparison. Somebody mentioned VAC. I know how the DiaLogue Premium compares to the Sigma 160i. But I don’t have one. I have the flagship Alpha Phi that we took on trade but it’s not current. Can somebody find a way to get one? Or a preamp/poweramp combo that is current? |
I caved and put the KT150s back in after just under 3 days. It's all the loveliness of the EL34s, but at SCALE. Everything is just "more" of what the EL34s have. Soundstage is much much larger, bass is deeper and a little tighter. Sparkle a little more real on cymbals. No downside I can find, other than perhaps I'm in the first or second row of the presentation where I was more like 10th or 12th row with the EL34s, which is not a downside to me (preference), just a difference.
I think that is a perfect description. I do worry that guys get the impression that it's a REQUIREMENT in PL gear when it's obviously not. It's not huge. But real. I can also say that at the super low plate voltage and easy way they are biased they will go and go and go. I run the heck out of mine and after 2 years they measure 90% of new. One pair of 12AU7's can be similarly effective. |
Of course, cathode bias means that you run a slightly higher B+ in order to achieve the same plate to cathode voltage, but it’s the quiescent current in conjunction with the plate to cathode voltage (not plate to ground voltage, which includes the voltage drop of the cathode resistor) which sets the plate dissipation of the tube. I’ve never heard anyone relate tube life to choice of biasing (fixed vs. cathode), but rather to operating points (plate dissipation).
Many of the cathode bias amps I've seen come through here run hotter than hell. I think people are attracted to them being"auto bias" when they are "self bias" and the fact that so much power goes up in heat isn't well-known. This come back to you statement about tube amps not being considered a problem back in the day. Squeezing the last bit of dissipation out of a tube wasn't something that Marantz would have done in the old days. |
Hey folks I'm getting on a plane now and may be out of touch for a bit. My wife is cool and loves audio but I better be present if you know what I mean. Vacation time. |
