Rowland and Levinson can read tea leaves it seems. :) |
I recently heard one of the writer's favorite two conventional amps powering some Apogee Divas. I can't wait to get to the same place so I can wake up that tired sound with my class D amps. |
Hey, no worries. I wonder what the mag would cost mailed to the US. |
Woodburger and Bbro have said it. Synergy is where it is. I have found naked speaker cables make night and day differences. Same goes for non-oversampling. The preamp choice is paramount as well.
As class D amps continue their spread, we will see cable and preamp builders bringing out more great class D friendly gear. |
Fazio, check out what I did with my H2O monos and speaker cables. The cables cost a couple dollars apiece. Write me if you want more info. the advantage is not small. Oh, and be sure to run the Sonicap Platinum .1µ between the positive and negative poles of your Elcos. Write me about that too. |
Our collective point is, Phd, you can't just try a class D amp, It takes a commitment to find out what brings out any class D amp's best. Some folks are lucky and have equipment that works well with their new amps. Others have hose cables, high impedance preamps, bad performing digital, or unshielded power cables, any of which can foul the sound.
I want to get a copy of Mr. Collin's article. I don't know about others, but my system would cream anything he has that uses his favorite conventional amp. |
Florian, Looney (proper spelling) is the guy who figured out who Shakespeare is. I agree with him, and proudly wear the looney label. |
Phd, wanting "body" in your playback is, of course, a valid desire. Big AB amps are the best for that. Class A breaks down the body into mellow details. Tubes take the dissection further. You simply hear more of what is recorded. Great class D will completely disassemble the body into it's respective parts. A well set up class D system will resemble a great SET system in detail and proper timbre, only the class D will be more dynamic. |
There are module in a box ICE amps, millions. That is why they developed a good digital power supply.
Although some versions of ICE ASP modules do make it into fancy boxes intended for the Hi Fi set, they tend to pass by the wayside. B&O does make a module that requires an add on power supply. How that power supply is designed and applied to the module separates the big boy ICE amps and the pretenders. |
This is a lot different than responses to similar questions as little as a year ago.
I love it when we get the usual tried it all and found only solid state is three dimensional.
What was your attending equipment? The rules have changed. Wires, preamps, and front ends have to be simple and wonderful. Over-sampling CDPs sound their selves flat and cranky. You just don't know that when matching them to solid state.
I am listening to the Beatle compilation, "Love, " and am freaking out!!!!!!!! |
R times 8man
Thanks my man!! Ain't life wonderful? Pedal to the metal here...... |
Points well taken, Bob. As an example that supports your observations, I just installed Sonicap Platinum bypass caps, and like what they have done. My speaker cables are short. I have found SC and IC insulation pollutes the signal significantly. I have yet to do binding posts or isolation. Any suggestions? |
Mrtennis - your perception of solid state is largely correct. We are talking about class D. Some bloke wrote yet another personal opinion piece based on guesswork equipment matching. |
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Atmasphere, you are entitled to your opinion. I did not know you are an amp producer. I have never heard a tube system, regardless of cost that can bring on the real performance better than my own class D system. Can you tell me what areas you think class D does not match your amp's performance? I have heard unspeakably expensive tube systems. |
Sajran has quality sources, keen knowledge of what actually works in given systems, and an open mind. Read his review of Henry's H20 amps done a couple years ago.
I have monos of his that have a B&O improved ICE module, and much better bypass caps. The sound just got better.
Class D amps, the great ones, must be fed impeccable signal. Any source, wire, and pre-amp negatives will be exposed, much to the listener's discomfort. |
I agree with Getheleadout, and will add one more thing.
All switching amp SYSTEMS are not created equal. |
Right on Dazzdax!
I added a pic of the H2O power supply to my system layout. Check it out. It illustrates not being merely a module in a box great class D amps are much more. |
Atmasphere, Although the tube guys will never admit it, class D ICE has already eclipsed their performance in real world terms. Never will class D emulate the fantasyland of tube amps.
A nice The nice thing about ICE you can set it's tempo with tubes. My driving tubes are in my DAC. You'd be surprised how close class D can get to the romance of tubes by running tube signals through them. |
Simontju, No, sorry, I am not familiar with most name brands of tube amps, since I am not shopping there. |
Atmasphere, class D has, in fact, secured the boombox audio field for the very attributes you listed. That says nothing of the class D amps that have been designed for the 2 channel audio connoisseurs, anymore that the previous mass product use of tubes defines your products.
The most fussy tube amp I have heard is the Audio Note Kageki. As I understand AN takes pains to limit compromises for their upper shelf amps.
ICE makes the 500A amp module. This is a module that requires an add on power supply, unlike the ASP modules that have digital power supplies built in.
The 500A module is aimed at the tiny audiophile market. You'd think that would be it. No, they spent countless engineer hours improving the 500A module. You may consider this production in agreement with your reduced compromise ideal. Why did they do that? They wanted to limit compromises in their finest module.
Now, the 500A module's amp performance depends on that amp designer's talent and knowledge. And better sound doesn't stop there. That designer amp's performance depends entirely on it's owner's application. I have found the requirements of a successful class D system are stringent indeed.
The better of class D amps CAN be frightfully outer space transparent. The down side is any, whether it be electronic, like oversampling DACS, or physical, like hose speaker cables, the result can be disastrous. That has been my experience.
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Nelson lives just up the road for me. What I would give for a visit from him. Seriously, he would be shocked. That from a former Pass Labs fan.
When I first got into class D amps, I immediately saw more promise than drawbacks. My amp builder cut his audio teeth designing no feedback class A amps. There is no looking back for him or I.
My own system has been criticized over the last three years. I was told just the other day by a fellow audio enthusiast class D sound has an overemphasis of the leading edge, and a lack of depth. There was no question in his mind my system championed sound-stage presentation and detail.
Much to his surprise, on a visit just a few days ago, there is no hint of a hot leading edge. Depth leaps into the distance. Place of the music's origin superimposes my own walls.
Why the change? It is the learning curve I wrote about. The choice of caps, of speaker cables, and of source made all the difference.
Atmasphere, if only you could hear this. |
Atmasphere, Yours is a fair and responsible reply. Thank you. |
Guidocorona, fellow secular humanist, you are right about the futility of guessing evolutionary trends. I am sure you picked up on that fool's recent surmising there will be two races in 250 years, tall and swarthy haves, and ding dong dwarf have nots. Who can say? Given the world's species environmental peril, I have darker predictions.
Just the same, I think if I were a struggling proto-mammal 240 million years ago, after spying a sleek early dinosaur..... I would put my money on him to rule the world for the next 200 million years. Don't you think? :D |
Mrtennis, Class D should not be confused with solid state. They don't even sound similar.
You would not like to hear class D on panel speakers? You obviously have not heard my panel speakers. |
Mrtennis, I have Apogee Scintillas. Of all the systems in my area, mine sounds closest to a $150,000 SET system, with mine certainly leading in real size, and in everything else IMHO.
Like another SET owner told me, "You and I are climbing the same mountain. We are just taking different paths."
Are you into vintage tube amps, or vintage tubes?
My DAC is an Audio Note DAC. That is as much tubes as I want to fuss over. I see what my tube gear cohorts go through testing one vintage tube after another for every component. Egads! :)
My system is listed here. |
Guidocorona, just what will be the standard, if class D never ascends to superiority? Solid state, with it's manufactured. "Body," and smeared highs?
Or is it to be NOS tube amps, with their rapidly dwindling stocks of tubes, and their cloying delivery, the worst of which sound gooey with caramel?
My class D amp. augmented with the perfect preamp. is deeply detailed. hugely dynamic, sweetly extended, and lifelike, superseding every SET or any other tube system I have heard. Solid state might as well skip the party.
B&O has announced a new generation of digital power supply modules that purport to have have distinctly improved stats. Someday their modular amp will succeed in making even the now so necessary analog power supply superfluous.
The future is here. It's just the learning curve on how to implement class D amps that is in it's infancy. |
I agree with Guidlcorona. Sirspeedy, that was a good one. My amps have been serviced, and upgraded twice since I bought them three years ago. |
Welcome to the club, David. I knew it was just a matter of time. |
Increased ownership of class D amps. As little as a year ago, there may have been maybe a dozen posts. Some few of us were championing class D four years ago. We were laughed at then. Now there is strength in numbers. This is great! |
Elberoth2, I don't know where Kijanki is from, but would I be in my more waring moods, my argument would parallel his, for the most part. I live in California.
Not having heard ICE ASP module, I can't comment. Their 500A, mated with a great linear power supply can put your system in just this side of heaven made. |
Kijank, I want to thank you for taking the time to unmask this pretender, Cplloms.
I am just a listener. One critic of class D, and tube lover extraordinaire, told me recently he can hear class D sampling. When I questioned how, he used the example of upsampling DACs vs. non-upsampling. I had to agree with him on the difference of those two. I also had to tell him I cannot hear any similar sampling distortion in the ICE amp I am using, H2O.
From what I think I understand from what you said, ICE modules do not sample. Am I correct here? That would explain why I do not hear anything.
I can put my ear directly to my drivers and hear nothing but pure music. There is no noise.
Another question I'd like to put to you is whether you have found everything inserted into the best class D amps has to be as faultless as possible?
Thanks again for your input. |
Kijanki, On my 1 ohm speakers, there is very very little resistance in the way of the signal. The signal is beautiful and natural when it is left alone. Oversampling, as elegant a circuit as is, cannot operate without introducing some timing error. That flaw is painfully obvious on my Scintillas.
These amps are so good at being faithful to the signal, minute distortions, usually deaf on listeners, work their way through. I have found speaker cables must be bereft of insulation, DACs must be simple. |
Kijanki, I hear you. I know someone who told me they feel music should be blended because that is how he hears it in the audience. He went out and bought the same speakers as I, and put a Krell on them. Talk about opposing forces.....
My DAC has no anti jitter circuitry. I believe that is the clock, the same thing that is scalping the crud off the signal supposedly. There is no clock that can get the signal perfectly aligned. There are too many complexities. It's sort of like electron studies. It can't be done, because that which is observing unavoidably effects the outcome of the measurement. It is all explained under Quantum Theory.
Like I said before, I can get right to the ribbons and hear nothing but pure music.
By the way, try a naked wire for your speaker cable, then try a wide ultra thin cable. This is a very interesting experiment.
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Oops, I meant to say, "Ultra thin ribbon," and not cable. |
Kijanki, just reading your description of the path the signal has to go through to be cleansed leads me to imagine just what I hear from those DACs, forced. My music is free breathing, unrestricted. There is absolutely no audible distortion. I just can't listen to SACD, and I don't care to.
The two of us are discovering new rules of engagement when dealing with class D. I am thrilled with my results. It seems you are very happy with yours as well.
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Mr. Tennis, my system sound has evolved from one matching your experience to one now that is on all day long.
It didn't take me long to realize there were things you can do to bring out the best results. A remedy for your complaint, "solid state amps and class d amps sound uncivilized, raw and aggressive," is do not use over-sampling CDPs, and do not choose a digital power supplied module.
The ribbon speaker cable I switched to worked wonders as well. On the whole, music is dynamic, yet relaxed. |
We have concentrated on the Rowland 201 because the most vociferous defender of class D happens to own that Rowland. I have not heard any of the Rowlands, and have no opinion of their sound.
The builder of my amps, the H2O (a 500A module amp), also makes the digital power supply amps. He makes no bones about it, he feels the 500A module, mated to his massive power supply, sounds better.
The point of this is there are a large number of class D amps. One cannot draw a general opinion through these amps, unless that opinion is derived from a built in love for tubes or solid state sound.
For my ears, Class D amp builders are not trying to achieve a sound like tubes or solid state. They are trying to amplify the truest signal to their ability. If it were the mimicry of tubes they were striving for, they would not have employed a passive filter to peel away the manufactured even and 2nd order harmonics, the very distortion that endears some tube defenders.
Recently I auditioned a higher order DAC. It introduced a lot more tubes into the mix. While the huge DAC did spit shine shine separation, and power, it's three more tubes obviously lent a good deal of color.
My preference, and I must insist it is my preference, is for less coloring, and more raw truth. My amps and preamp (class A) are doing that for me. |
That is a good question. Looking into it, B&O does employ class AB amps for mids and highs in their Beolab 7. While their flagship speaker, the Beolab 5, uses all 1CE amps. It's quite a mystery. I sent them a query.
http://www.bang-olufsen.com/UserFiles/File/Products/Technical%20Specifications/BeoLab5_en_na.pdf |
Yes! If we all could be weekly attendees to live acoustic events, from grand pianos to grand sweeps of an orchestra, we would largely have the same reference to draw upon.
Among my visitors, those folks with a good deal of that experience see the value in a well developed class D sound. |
Hey Atmasphere, reference sir? my Scintillas can bring all the thunder of four antiphonal organs complete with reverberations, off the walls of the Cathedral of Freidburg to life in my listening room. |
Oh, so that means only you know your system is top dog? I believe if a person of good hearing is familiar with acoustic music, they can tell if a recording is doing a good job representing acoustic music. I know the sound of a guitar, so I know if a recording does it right.
I know string instruments, horns, and pianos as they are all played by my family. I have worked musical theatres for years. We have attended symphonic performances from Carnegie to Sunday at the park.
I know this too, tubes are infamous for their coloring, and oversized helping of second order distortion. People steeped in the land of valves are so righteous they can't accept clear musical feedback when they hear it. I know that for sure, because the only disagreement I have had concerns such folks, good friends of mine by the way. |
Tvad, you are walking right into that bravado I just tried to debunk. Any master tape is going to be more accurate to the performance than that which is tortured through processing. There are great recordings and a lot more bad.
Saying that only the chosen few who follow the recording from the performance can ascertain their system is the closest thing is crazy in my view.
I have sat just a few feet away from guitar maestro Leo Kottke. Do you really think I should have recorded that incident to have any recollection of what it sounded like?
My daughter stood just as close as she practiced her very fine viola daily. It is live, why would I need to record that?
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You have not convinced me. Knowing what a family of acoustic instruments sound like in real life should be one's gauge, not the recording. Besides Atmasphere is no more likely to remember whether his playback sounds like the performance. He still has to rely on his memory.
When I clicked your system I found you use Bose! :) |
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Tvad, I agree... We are not carving new territory, or supplying grand insights.
I just cannot abide anyone telling us they know there system captured the night because they taped the night. What they hear back at the lab is the tape on their system, not the music that was captured by the tape. Do you get my meaning? We are asked to take their word for it. The Von Schweikert demo is no more convincing. We weren't at the recording. The smart thing was to use a master tape. |
Thank you, Atmasphere. If I were building amps, I would go that route. The closest thing I have to having that capability is a remarkable CD produced by the Royer microphone company. They purportedly transposed master tape recording to CD. I know, it isn't the tape.
The point I am attempting to make, is knowing what a live musical instrument sounds like, you don't need an intermediary such as a tape. Take my daughter's viola, for instance. If, on your playback, you cannot hear the subtle roll of horse hairs from on edge, to flat, and all points between, you are missing a whole lot in musical phrasing. You will also learn to look for the proper amount of resin.
I can see where a master tape could come in useful. The sound of the viola is indeterminate. They all sound a bit different from each other. There is no one tonal indicator.
It should go without saying, no matter the recording, wires and speakers play an enormous part in bridging the performance with a system's There is not a speaker made that can sound absolutely real. The closest I have heard is my own. |
Tvad, I have a Royer's Microphone demonstration disc. It covers the different microphone positions, and their affect on the final sound. Recording is an art in itself.
On solo acoustic instruments, with a uber-resolving system, you can indeed hear the rosin's stickiness, and those faint bow angle tonal tickles. That is what I want to hear, and that is what I have.
Orchestral staging is quite different. I am careful to choose a volume level that is compensatory to the distance between my speakers, 7.5 feet. That puts me on first balcony. |
Guido, I love your writing style. - read the above post. I have untampered recordings, and I love that. A close miced guitar is wonderful, because most of us have heard guitars up close. As annoying it is to hear the string squeaks you do want to hear the string windings when the player slides his/her fingers along them. When Kottke really gets going, his manipulations of each string and each fret are simply awesome.
People with poor hearing do miss a lot. I know fellows like that. Mids and lows are everything to them. I have that great recording, Windham Hill '84 on now. That is a good one for detail. During one song (on now) the drummer is constantly tickling the high hat. It is a panoply of high frequencies not enjoyed by the hearing challenged.
You know real when you hear it, regardless of your hearing ability. There are clues. |
Atmasphere, with distortion values you are reporting, playing loud on my 1 ohm speakers must sound like crap. Oddly it doesn't. |
