CD Quality Versus Streaming Quality


I realize this will be a contentious subject, and far be it from me to challenge any of the many expert opinions on this forum, but if I may offer my feedback vis-a-vis what I am hearing, and gain some knowledge in the process.

i will begin saying that my digital front end setup is not state of the art, but i have had the good fortune to listen to a number of really high-end systems. I guess the number one deficit in my digital front end is a streamer server, and no question about it that will improve the sound.

My CD player is a universal player; Pioneer BDP-09fd. It uses Wolfson DACs. It has been modified to a degree. I have bought and sold other players, but kept this one, because it has a beautiful sound that serves the music well.

Recently, i ventured over to my son’s place and we hooked up my player (he doesn’t have one and rely’s on streaming only) We compared tracks / albums of CD quality and master quality streamed on Tidal with ‘redbook’ CDs I have. For example, some Lee Ritenaur CDs and some Indian classical and the wonderful Mozart and Chopin.
His system is highly resolving.

we were both very surprised to find the CDs played on the player to be the better sound. And not just by a little. The sound was clearly superior, with higher resolution and definition, spatial ques, much better and clearer imaging. Very surprising indeed. Shouldn’t there be no difference? This would suggest the streaming service is throttling the bandwidth or compressing the signal?

i am most interested to hear others’ observations, and suggestions as to why this might be? I do love the convenience aspect of streaming, but it IS expensive for a chap like me of fairly modest means. The Tidal HiFi topline service is $30 per month I believe, something the good lady is not too thrilled about. God forbid I should suggest Roon on top of that I may likely get my walking papers. I jest, but only partially LoL. My point is, if I pay this sort of money, isn’t it fair to expect sound to equal the digital stream from the CD player and silver disc?
Thoughts?

AK





4afsanakhan

Showing 2 responses by jpeters568

George - I agree with you on some things you mention here, but you're confusing file compression with music compression and they are two very different things. (Both have their place with music - but they're very different.) 

File compression allows you to zip a file to reduce it's size, or in music terms, it allows you to convert a raw 44/16 (or other - default CD quality)  file to a smaller file by eliminating "unneeded" portions of a song. A standard CD will play at something like 1024 - vs. an MP3 file at 128kb/s. The Bruce Springsteen album you reference from Qobuz is their hi-res 192/24 format - or roughly 4x the bandwidth the original would have used. (They're actually taking up far more bandwidth/ sending far more data for - what I agree with you - is a far poorer sounding mix.) 

Music compression on the other hand deals with the difference between the very loudest part of a song - to the most quiet in terms of DB level. That's the dynamic range - and what the website you cite, is talking about. It's a complaint about how modern music / sound engineers mix music that far less dynamic range - in terms of loud to soft - today than in the past. 

And, there are arguments for both. Is it what the artist originally intended? For older music, absolutely not! They meant for you to "lean in" and listen closer to the soft part of the music or vocals. But with kids 40 and younger today, with earbuds, and headphones, and car stereo systems, and Alexa speakers being used, it makes sense to form a better - more compressed, volume level so that you're not blowing out the ears of people or having to crank the volume up to hear the soft parts of a song, only to then have your ears blown out with the next song. 

I also can't speak to "clocks" in music - I have no idea - but with respect to data - bit perfect, data - I am a senior systems engineer and trust me when I say this, with even a poor network system today, bit perfect data can be delivered with ease. No matter the cables being used, or whatever linier power supply you think might be the weak part of the chain, it's absurd to suggest that digital anything will deliver "noise" to your system short of some kind of ground loop or malfunctioning equipment. CD transports costing 2k, or 5k, or 20k - I'm sorry to say this - but without an internal dac being used, will have zero affect on the sound. A $20, cheap sony CD player, is more than capable of delivering bit perfect data to your external DAC. (Now, if you're dac is internal to your transport - that certainly can make a difference.... but if you're using a strict transport, I can prove over and over and over again - it is absolute bit perfect data that is being exported to your dac no matter what device is used and will make zero difference to the music.) 

So to the original OP - my guess is that it was a difference in configuration or a setting that might have been off - certainly the dac WILL have an impact on the sound, so I'd recommend connecting a digital out on your transport, checking your settings to ensure you're streaming the same thing, and then re-doing the test. Because coming through the same DAC should be identical sound (WITH the caveat that George points out too - provided they're the exact same mix/ release of the album.) 

And again - to be totally clear with you George, I see and understand, and even agree with your point. Compressed Dynamic Range of music - yeah - it does suck when I'm trying to get that "audiophile" experience at home on my system. But in the car, or waiting for an uber, or jogging, it's nice to have that volume compression so my ears don't blow out between songs or between parts of songs. 

Wrapping all of this up - as a 40 year old, I have had the honor to live through the most dynamic changes ever witnessed for music (Short of when people had to attend live venues to ever hear music and instead, could listen at their home.) I had tapes in the car, and vinyl/ radio at home, and then CD's for both, and lived through sharing music on Napster, to what has flourished into bit perfect, steaming, uncompressed audio. And, we are at, what I think might be the last stage of music, but absolute, perfect surround music with Apple and Tidal introducing Atmos music. (it's game changing with the right setup and a well mastered mix.) So many audiophiles experienced that transition when music went from mono to stereo - and my generation is now experiencing that same change with surround. And, mixers today, despite having compressed volume, are getting there - we have settled on a great digital form, a standard, that hasn't existed for decades. 
4afsanakhan: I can completely understand why you heard the difference given the tests you ran. Airplay compresses and downmixes music to about 1/4 of what the original is - it is not a bit-perfect stream and it is not lossless. (It is very good - but with good ears - and a good system - and to know what to listen for - it's very easy to tell the difference and it is indeed inferior.) Test 2 - MQA is NOT a lossless format. Then test 3 - if Tidal is again using MQA between your setup - again - not lossless - and then Fourth test - I assume was the best (it's the only one of the four to not have something lossy in the signal path.) My guess between the transports that you reference might be the dac if you weren't using an external dac - and again - that would be totally logical to me where there is a distinctive difference in sound. So - what you go on to write later - it doesn't add up that those are the only two reasons why the music sounds different. There are technical, very discernable differences with the test you mention (which I am quite sure good listeners would be able to hear.) 

And cleeds - you're explanation to the aforementioned user - the ECC built into a CD is absolutely ZERO match for ECC built into any modern ISP's network or a decently modern home network. Have you ever performed an update on any computer system and were able to install a corrupted file? No - the storage you have, or your memory, or processor, might corrupt the file, but what is delivered to you is always, bit perfect - hash tag matched - each, and every, single, time, provided the equipment used to send and receive is working as expected. On the other hand, give me a microwave or a piece of wadded up aluminum foil, and we'll compare how your "perfect cd" sounds to my bit perfect digital stream. Errors cannot, do not, "creep in" - they are clearly identified and rectified within milliseconds again, on any decent working network. And anyone that says otherwise has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. 

Let me be absolutely clear about this too - some of you are NOT imagining sound differences here from streaming to cd's. George is ABSOLUTELY correct to cite how new albums found on streaming services are indeed, compressed from a dynamic range standpoint (Not a bit perfect or any change to the file compression, but rather compressed dynamic range.) There is an excellent youtube video here that's a minute or so long - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v6ML2DsBfA but this perfectly explains what I believe many of you are hearing and why it does sound bad. 

George - to answer your question - it depends. If you're talking about downloading a song to your system from a lossless streaming company - Apple, Amazon, Quobz, and Tidal (provided it is NOT MQA), AND, it is the same mixed version of the song you have on CD, then yes, it will be absolutely identical. However, if you deliver that file to your DAC via Bluetooth, Airplay, or Chromecast, then no - what is being received by your DAC WILL be compressed from a file size and amount of data standpoint. (Whatever device you are using in that signal path to "stream to your dac wirelessly (And using those three aforementioned standards) will compress the actual file to minimize the data being transferred to your DAC.) But if you're using something like a bluesound, or some cambridge audio products, or aurelec, there are many of them, then no, what is downloaded and then presented to the dac, provided it is the same mix, will be absolutely identical (and perhaps even better depending on the quality of your cd.) TO be clear, I have not run tests on these to confirm, but it is super easy and if something nefarious was occurring, I believe it would be known by now. (For example - MQA from Tidal - it is NOT lossless and the files are different.) 

I believe all of you who say that your CD sounds better - and I believe those who say that your streamer sounds better. If you're sending the signal via a wireless protocol (that is NOT just wifi), then yes, the CD will sound better because you are not sending a compressed/ downsized file. For those of you streaming in high res correctly without lossless codecs in between - I can totally see why that sounds better especially when using hi-res mixed tracks. (That aren't dynamically compressed too much) But all things being equal, same dac, signal being sent correctly, there should be no change in sound.